real subs vs. topping from the bottom

[dark_tipped_rose]

I am new to this all and would like to know whats the difference between someone is really submissive as opposed to topping from the bottom?

 

[serijules]

I hate the phrase topping from the bottom. In my opinion it's simply manipulation, and exists in many forms in any relationship. If someone is a manipulative person, they are going to act in manipulative ways.


If someone is submissive, topping from the bottom doesn't exist. Simple as that. Otherwise they are just a bottom, and the phrase is a moot point.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

IMO, the main difference is the sub's motivation.

A sub who is trying to get the Dom to do what they want in order to get their rocks off is topping from the bottom (also called 'do me' subs because their focus is always what is being done to them rather than what the dom is getting out of doing it.)

A sub who wants to submit to what the dom truly wants is not.

I do think that this sort of thing can be hard to define.

It's the duty of a pyl (pick your label: sub/slave/masochist/bottom) to give their PYL (Dom/me, Top, Sadist) the information they need as regards desires, preferences, limits and tolerances. PYLs are quick to complain if they've managed to harm their pyl through lack of communication on the pyl's part or failure to use a safeword when they should have done.

Giving information, even mid coitus, should never be viewed as topping from the bottom. The PYL can take that info on board and use it as they see fit.

I hope this makes sense. It was crystal clear in my head but the more I edit this post, the more obtuse it becomes.

 

[HottieMama]

If someone is submissive, topping from the bottom doesn't exist. Simple as that. Otherwise they are just a bottom, and the phrase is a moot point.

What about the case of the submissive that knows more about a particular activity than the Dom/a Dom? For example, fisting. If "you" want to fist me, I am going to tell you exactly how and how not to do it. If you want me to fist you, same thing. I have been doing it since I was 18 with my first girlfriend and know more about it than most people I have met. It doesn't make me less submissive to tell "you" "No, don't ball your hand up inside me...It's too much pressure on my cervix." or "I'll gladly fist you anally but I am not comfortable using both hands and won't because I don't want to hurt you." That's being smart IMO.

Perhaps that makes me "just a bottom" for those particular acts that i "direct" but i tend to see D/s as a relationship dynamic and Top/bottom as a sexual dynamic anyway.

 

[Homburg]

What about the case of the submissive that knows more about a particular activity than the Dom/a Dom? For example, fisting. If "you" want to fist me, I am going to tell you exactly how and how not to do it. If you want me to fist you, same thing. I have been doing it since I was 18 with my first girlfriend and know more about it than most people I have met. It doesn't make me less submissive to tell "you" "No, don't ball your hand up inside me...It's too much pressure on my cervix." or "I'll gladly fist you anally but I am not comfortable using both hands and won't because I don't want to hurt you." That's being smart IMO.

Perhaps that makes me "just a bottom" for those particular acts that i "direct" but i tend to see D/s as a relationship dynamic and Top/bottom as a sexual dynamic anyway.

That's education, not manipulation. It's not direction from a power standpoint, just knowledge exchange. I don't think anyone secure would see that as topping from the bottom.

Overall, I'm staying clean out of this thread, as I guarantee my comments on the topic will cause a ruckus. I just wanted to give you some backing there, HM. *hugs*

PS - There is nothing wrong with bottoms! Some of my favourite people are "just" bottoms.

 

[BiBunny]

That's education, not manipulation. It's not direction from a power standpoint, just knowledge exchange. I don't think anyone secure would see that as topping from the bottom.

Overall, I'm staying clean out of this thread, as I guarantee my comments on the topic will cause a ruckus. I just wanted to give you some backing there, HM. *hugs*

Ditto

PS - There is nothing wrong with bottoms! Some of my favourite people are "just" bottoms.

Double ditto.

 

[YourCaptor]

What about the case of the submissive that knows more about a particular activity than the Dom/a Dom?

I am suddenly getting a very romantic picture of a mature sub teaching her owner how to care and feed her properly.

Could make a good story.

Back on track

I suppose toping from the bottom could be a dominant who wants to be treated as a sub. For example, the “bottom” instruct the “top” to beat them for certain behavior.

 

[HottieMama]

could be a dominant who wants to be treated as a sub

Here's where we get into a "name game." A Dom that wants to be treated as a sub would technically be a bottom for a particular activity. Bottoming to a whip or a fist or a dildo does not detract from their dominance in the relationship. It is just about what gives them pleasure.

 

[FungiUg]

I am new to this all and would like to know whats the difference between someone is really submissive as opposed to topping from the bottom?

"Real"? What is "real"? No, I'm not getting philosophical here. I am making a point. "Real" is what you (as an individual) determine it to be.

I always hate (read loathe, despise and other words of similar ilk) people who insist on telling others that there is a "magic formula" and everyone must follow it. Whether it be religion, politics or BDSM.

There are only people, and every person is individual and unique. So why do we think that we can all use the same rules or definitions?

Yes, we have convenient labels in submissive, dominant, top, bottom, slave, master, sadist, masochist, switch, etc. They are not definitions. They are labels. Every submissive is different. Every dominant is different. Etc, etc, blah blah blah. Talk to 10 different people identifying as a label, and you are likely to get 10 different (and sometimes contradictory) definitions.

Stop worrying about the labels, and just be. Be what you are and be proud of it. Yes, if you think you identify with a label, feel free to use it. Attach it to yourself proudly (with big stabby needles if you like.) It can help to find suitable partners. If you already have suitable partners, then forget about the label and focus on getting the most out of learning what works and what doesn't in reality. That's the real thing.

Oh, and however you determine to live your life or your BDSM play, be prepared for some people telling you that you are doing it wrong. "Oh, you are topping from the bottom!" "Oh, you're not a real sub, you're only a bottom." Etc, etc, blah blah blah.

What makes them the experts? What gives them the right to determine that what you are doing is wrong? Nothing! Nothing nothing nothing! You get to decide. No one else. (Well, your partners also get to decide in a similar way.)

Good luck.


P.S. Homburg, you coward! I always enjoy what you have to say, even if I don't always agree with it.

 

[Homburg]

P.S. Homburg, you coward! I always enjoy what you have to say, even if I don't always agree with it.

Thanks, Fungi. It has nothing to do with cowardice. It has to do with realising that there will be emotional bleedover if I post. This decision is a rare moment of prudence on my part.

 

[FungiUg]

Thanks, Fungi. It has nothing to do with cowardice. It has to do with realising that there will be emotional bleedover if I post. This decision is a rare moment of prudence on my part.

Ah well.

Something I was thinking about adding to my post is that there are always people in our lives whose opinions matter. Even if they're not always right, they're always worth listening to. (Homburg is one of those people on this board for me.)

Of course, there is the reverse of that too. (A reverse Homburg? Um... staying on track here.)

Being open minded and questioning is all good, but learning to do what is right for you and not holding other peoples' differences against them even when they disagree with you (which they will) is also good.

 

[Homburg]

Ah well.

Something I was thinking about adding to my post is that there are always people in our lives whose opinions matter. Even if they're not always right, they're always worth listening to. (Homburg is one of those people on this board for me.)
.

Goodness, thank you.

 

[Kajira Callista]

I am new to this all and would like to know whats the difference between someone is really submissive as opposed to topping from the bottom?

you won the prize for the onemilliontwohundredandfiftythreethousandfortyfifth thread on "real" submission

 

[serijules]

What about the case of the submissive that knows more about a particular activity than the Dom/a Dom? For example, fisting. If "you" want to fist me, I am going to tell you exactly how and how not to do it. If you want me to fist you, same thing. I have been doing it since I was 18 with my first girlfriend and know more about it than most people I have met. It doesn't make me less submissive to tell "you" "No, don't ball your hand up inside me...It's too much pressure on my cervix." or "I'll gladly fist you anally but I am not comfortable using both hands and won't because I don't want to hurt you." That's being smart IMO.

Perhaps that makes me "just a bottom" for those particular acts that i "direct" but i tend to see D/s as a relationship dynamic and Top/bottom as a sexual dynamic anyway.

There is always a "what if". I don't do what if's lol.

Like someone else said, that's not "topping from the bottom"...it's simply educating. Doesn't make the act any less submissive if the partners intend it to be submissive.

I LOVE bottoms. I used to be one. I'm only "submissive" when I belong to someone. If I were to play with say, Netzach (in my dreams) I would be bottoming. There is little difference between the two other than as a bottom it is appropriate to "manipulate" the scene or play by setting limits, asking for what you want, and otherwise having more direction in the play. When I'm submitting, it isn't appropriate for that kind of direction to be there, thus why I always say "I bottom to many, I submit to one".

Not to confuse manipulation with communication, btw...it's perfectly fine IMO to say when submitting to someone "This isn't working for me, may we try something else". That's communicating. "Topping from the bottom" to me would be when someone doesn't like something that is happening so rather than communicating that, they safeword or otherwise twist the play to go how THEY want without communicating it to the top. I don't want to know "submissives" that are that inconsiderate and immature, kthanksbye...

It's one of those "it's not what you say, it's how you say it" type of things.

Topping from the bottom is non-productive manipulation, and while there are types of bottoms (brats, SAMS, little girls) where forms of this type of manipulation may be appropriate and welcome, submissiveness is not one of them in my opinion, which is why I say there is no place for it there. If that kind of manipulation is present, I personally don't consider it to be submission.

But as Fungi said, that's just ME, and the only people any of that matters to is the people directly involved. Fuck what anyone else thinks.

 

[EmpressFi]

what is real.. what isnt real..? It's all about what works for your relationship. Master calls me a slave because that's how he sees me. I know to some I fit their mold of submissive and to some as bottom.

Yes, it's true. He does not live with us. But we're in constant communication, except for commuting times. He calls me his slave because I follow his orders without argument, without question. He also gives me free rein to speak my mind because he enjoys hearing my opinions. That does not give me free rein to be a smartass, though I often am... which most of the time, makes him laugh. However, I do know when to NOT be sarcastic. And my love and respect for him are constant.

It's funny because he and I were talking about something the other day, neither of us can remember the specifics. But the topic of conversation came to me doing something to make him do what I want. I kept insisting that I wouldnt because that would be manipulating him. If I wanted to be beaten roughly and decided that being a smartass was the best way to do it and then without telling him did just that... that would be topping from the bottom... and manipulative. and something I just couldnt do.

I have many names.. sub, pet, slave, whore, slut, cockslut, lover, friend, to Malin I'm wife, lover, friend.

The only thing that matters... the only thing that SHOULD matter... is how you see yourself and if it works for your relationship

 

[Homburg]

There is no "real". You are as real in your mind as you feel. Your "real" may not be my "real", and vice versa, but that only matters if we are in a relationship.

There is a LOT going on in this question, and it can be a firebrand issue pretty easily. So take what is said here with a grain of salt.

I personally see three major sorts of pyl - bottoms, submissives, and slave. They're distinct, but there's a lot of crossover. Subs often bottom, bottoms are frequently submissive in scene, slaves are commonly both submissive and bottoms, etc.

A common mistake, IMO, is to see these as a spectrum, or a sliding graph. Looking at them as points on a line invites unfair comparisons. I've heard people say that slaves act subbier than thou, because they feel they do it better, or that bottoms are just players because they aren't submitting outside of scene.

What-the-fuck-ever.

It's not a spectrum.
It's not a line graph.
It's not a system of ranking.

They are labels, useful, as Fungiug said, to help people find compatible folks. Their worth tends to end right there. Cause, frankly, if I'm in a relationship with someone, I don't care what they call themselves. I care about how compatible they are with me.

In short, "real" doesn't have a lot of worth in this context, IMO.

Topping from the bottom becomes its' own issue. I've seen it. Seen cases of it in other relationships, seen it in my own scenes (not with viv, she's a good girl and I'm a lucky bastard to have her)

When I've seen it in other relationships, I generally feel like it is their business. If the individual involved gets disparaging on the topic, I'll call em on it, but that's about it. Sometimes I have reasons for saying something *shrug* The world is a great big fluid place, and very few rules work as hard and fast as people would like them to.

When I've seen it in my scenes, I take it case by case. Is it a bottom at a party for one scene only? Is said bottom being excessive about it? If so, I will offer a single verbal correction. If it is not heeded, I'll end the scene. Usually though, I can get the person to hush up and work with me with some discussion. Beats an argument mid-scene any day.

If it is in an actual long-standing relationship, I look at it objectively. What did I negotiate? What lines did I draw? How far am I willing to indulge the behaviour? Do I actually consider myself to own this person?

In short, it's fluid. I don't tend to put up with that sort of behaviour too far, but that's just me. Some PYL's are indulgent as hell (as serijules mentioned, little girls, brats, etc tend to be in these sorts of relationships).

My big problem with the phrase "topping from the bottom" is that is is used as a perjorative to cover all sorts of behaviours, manipulative, reverse psychology, actually expressing normal desires, whining, etc. Seems like any time a submissive is *gasp* human, said sub is topping from the bottom in the eyes of some. Whatever.

I will say that I've seen relationships where the sub is plainly in charge. Maybe not of day-to-day details, but they run the ship. Are they submissive? Maybe. I dunno. I will say that they aren't submissive to their supposed PYL by the definitions I have for those labels. It's generally a result of the sub being stronger-willed than the "Dom" and possessed of more vision. Not everyone that picks up a crop should be swinging it.

(There you go, Fungi. Happy?)

 

[FungiUg]

(There you go, Fungi. Happy?)

Very, thank you kindly! I also agree with what you posted

As an aside, where I have seen "topping from the bottom" being an issue is where a submissive/bottom starts telling someone in another relationship how to conduct their relationship. Of course, it's just as much an issue for me if it's a dominant/top doing that (maybe we'd call that "topping from the side"?). People interfering in other relationships is just nasty, whatever name you call it.

 

[madetotakeit]

IMO there should be a sticky of words that should not be used on the board because it will start off topic rants. Our own version of The Seven Things You Can't Say On Television if you will. Real, true, only...I can think of the first three. I'm as guilty of having the reaction as the next person. This board is filled with intelligent, independent thinking, self-evolved people. It is a natural reaction to need to voice the view from your own side when generalizations are made. Okay, so I was just guilty of the off topic rant...on to the topic at hand.

Being submissive and topping from the bottom are two different worlds. Being submissive brings your own definition. What works for me will not work for you, or him, or her. There are as many motivations and expressions of submission as there are people who claim the title.

I have to agree with Serijules. Topping from the bottom is simply another term for manipulation. It can take the form of actions, words, emotions, or any combination there of (and yes, it can bleed over into interfering with how others conduct their relationships.) In the end though, IMO, it is the opposite of what I consider to be submissive. It's an attempt at control. In some dynamics, sure I guess that can be part of the appeal and that's great if it works for you. Whatever makes you happy, run with it. For me however it is counter-productive to what I am looking for. I control every other aspect of my life. Submission feeds the part of me that I push to the side. Finding someone that I trust to make decisions that could run from the mundane whim to holding my life in his hands and anything in between. If I felt I had to manipulate him, then I would also have to feel that I didn't trust him on that level. I'm confident enough in myself and cherish my free will enough that I don't feel the need to try to manipulate. I want to know that he is doing something because it is what he wants, that he is there because he wants to be. If I manipulated to achieve my desired outcome, how could I ever know for sure? I just don't see the point.

As always, opinions will vary.

 

[rida]

IMO, the main difference is the sub's motivation.

A sub who is trying to get the Dom to do what they want in order to get their rocks off is topping from the bottom (also called 'do me' subs because their focus is always what is being done to them rather than what the dom is getting out of doing it.)

A sub who wants to submit to what the dom truly wants is not.

I do think that this sort of thing can be hard to define.

It's the duty of a pyl (pick your label: sub/slave/masochist/bottom) to give their PYL (Dom/me, Top, Sadist) the information they need as regards desires, preferences, limits and tolerances. PYLs are quick to complain if they've managed to harm their pyl through lack of communication on the pyl's part or failure to use a safeword when they should have done.

Giving information, even mid coitus, should never be viewed as topping from the bottom. The PYL can take that info on board and use it as they see fit.

I hope this makes sense. It was crystal clear in my head but the more I edit this post, the more obtuse it becomes.

what she says from a submissive POV

There is no "real". You are as real in your mind as you feel. Your "real" may not be my "real", and vice versa, but that only matters if we are in a relationship.

There is a LOT going on in this question, and it can be a firebrand issue pretty easily. So take what is said here with a grain of salt.

I personally see three major sorts of pyl - bottoms, submissives, and slave. They're distinct, but there's a lot of crossover. Subs often bottom, bottoms are frequently submissive in scene, slaves are commonly both submissive and bottoms, etc.

A common mistake, IMO, is to see these as a spectrum, or a sliding graph. Looking at them as points on a line invites unfair comparisons. I've heard people say that slaves act subbier than thou, because they feel they do it better, or that bottoms are just players because they aren't submitting outside of scene.

What-the-fuck-ever.

It's not a spectrum.
It's not a line graph.
It's not a system of ranking.

They are labels, useful, as Fungiug said, to help people find compatible folks. Their worth tends to end right there. Cause, frankly, if I'm in a relationship with someone, I don't care what they call themselves. I care about how compatible they are with me.

In short, "real" doesn't have a lot of worth in this context, IMO.

Topping from the bottom becomes its' own issue. I've seen it. Seen cases of it in other relationships, seen it in my own scenes (not with viv, she's a good girl and I'm a lucky bastard to have her)

When I've seen it in other relationships, I generally feel like it is their business. If the individual involved gets disparaging on the topic, I'll call em on it, but that's about it. Sometimes I have reasons for saying something *shrug* The world is a great big fluid place, and very few rules work as hard and fast as people would like them to.

When I've seen it in my scenes, I take it case by case. Is it a bottom at a party for one scene only? Is said bottom being excessive about it? If so, I will offer a single verbal correction. If it is not heeded, I'll end the scene. Usually though, I can get the person to hush up and work with me with some discussion. Beats an argument mid-scene any day.

If it is in an actual long-standing relationship, I look at it objectively. What did I negotiate? What lines did I draw? How far am I willing to indulge the behaviour? Do I actually consider myself to own this person?

In short, it's fluid. I don't tend to put up with that sort of behaviour too far, but that's just me. Some PYL's are indulgent as hell (as serijules mentioned, little girls, brats, etc tend to be in these sorts of relationships).

My big problem with the phrase "topping from the bottom" is that is is used as a perjorative to cover all sorts of behaviours, manipulative, reverse psychology, actually expressing normal desires, whining, etc. Seems like any time a submissive is *gasp* human, said sub is topping from the bottom in the eyes of some. Whatever.

I will say that I've seen relationships where the sub is plainly in charge. Maybe not of day-to-day details, but they run the ship. Are they submissive? Maybe. I dunno. I will say that they aren't submissive to their supposed PYL by the definitions I have for those labels. It's generally a result of the sub being stronger-willed than the "Dom" and possessed of more vision. Not everyone that picks up a crop should be swinging it.

(There you go, Fungi. Happy?)

And what He says from a Dominant POV


(chuckle ... how to subscribe to a thread and not saying much really ... )

 

[Evil_Geoff]

I'm real!

I am! I am!

*leans down and shows the top of his head... *

See! I've been loved so much my fur is almost all gone there!

When you are loved that much, you become real!



Oh.. wait... you were talking about real submissives! My bad! I'm a real Dominant, wrong thread!

 

[JamieB]

I'm real!

I am! I am!

*leans down and shows the top of his head... *

See! I've been loved so much my fur is almost all gone there!

When you are loved that much, you become real!

Evil Geoff, the Velveteen Rabbit of sadists.

J

 

[EmpressFi]

I'm real!

I am! I am!

*leans down and shows the top of his head... *

See! I've been loved so much my fur is almost all gone there!

When you are loved that much, you become real!



Oh.. wait... you were talking about real submissives! My bad! I'm a real Dominant, wrong thread!

do I get a special prize for rubbing your head?

 

[Evil_Geoff]

do I get a special prize for rubbing your head?

That CAN be negotiated!

 

[EmpressFi]

That CAN be negotiated!

since I'm the subbie.. I guess I should crawl into your office?

 

[Etoile]

I hate when OP's don't return, but I'm really hoping this one does.