Judgement and Justification

[faeriefire]

Hello...someone today pm'd and suggested that bdsm is abusive and a PYL/pyl relationship is inherently immoral. I was informed I should be running out of this forum as fast as my legs can pump. My immediate reaction was to become defensive, then I laughed and finally moved on to introspection.

Now I'd like some other perspectives...

1) Do you feel the need to justify participating in the lifestyle? Is justification necessary on a personal level, or only if you are challenged by someone else? Is posting with like-minded people a way of enforcing self-justification?

2) If someone judges you (negatively) for partaking in bdsm does it hurt or do you ignore them? What if it's someone you care about, like a family member or close (vanilla) friend?

3) Is bdsm anyone's business outside of the people who are exploring this world? Should anyone have the right to say someone is right or wrong when speaking for another?

Obviously I'm still here and asking away I looked over the threads in the library about introspection and feeling ashamed. What I want to know is the flip-side: the affirmation that comes when you know something is right for you. Thank you for any possible insight on this rather dense question

 

[Netzach]

1) Do you feel the need to justify participating in the lifestyle? Is justification necessary on a personal level, or only if you are challenged by someone else? Is posting with like-minded people a way of enforcing self-justification?

Nope. It's a way of not going insane though, sometimes, to have people who have done as you've done and been as you've been in private matters. I very much feel "made this way" or "struck by the kink stick" or whatever.

2) If someone judges you (negatively) for partaking in bdsm does it hurt or do you ignore them? What if it's someone you care about, like a family member or close (vanilla) friend?

I tend not to open up as much to them or cut back on contact. I'm circumspect about it with people new to me and open about it with old and dear friends and so far so good for the most part. I tend to let *other* people bring it up first.

3) Is bdsm anyone's business outside of the people who are exploring this world? Should anyone have the right to say someone is right or wrong when speaking for another?

I don't think you have to *be* a practitioner to be an ally, to "get" us, to advocate for us as a sexual minority, no.

 

[serijules]

Never bothers me what others think about it. I know if I were vanilla and had no understanding of this world, I would likely have my fears and doubts and disgusts as well, same as I do for other things that I don't understand or like...like organized religion for instance. I don't go around telling people that are religious what I think of their choices though, nor would anything they say likely change my mind about it. I'm a bit narrow-minded in regards to that topic. So I understand it, even if I don't condone the actions.

If someone were to PM me like that, I wouldn't respond with defense or explanation. They won't get it. It's a waste of my time. *delete* Taking the bait only fuels potential disaster.

This is one part of me that I truly am completely comfortable with.

 

[HottieMama]

1) Do you feel the need to justify participating in the lifestyle? Is justification necessary on a personal level, or only if you are challenged by someone else? Is posting with like-minded people a way of enforcing self-justification?

i don't feel the need to justify my participation in the lifestyle, just like i don't feel the need to justify being poly or bisexual. It is all a part or what makes me, "me."

2) If someone judges you (negatively) for partaking in bdsm does it hurt or do you ignore them? What if it's someone you care about, like a family member or close (vanilla) friend?

i pretty much ignore those that have harsh things to say. As for people i care about, the majority of my close friends are "kinked" in some way, so it's not really an issue. we all live by that "People in glass houses..." metaphor.

3) Is bdsm anyone's business outside of the people who are exploring this world? Should anyone have the right to say someone is right or wrong when speaking for another?

IMO, no and no. I have become less and less open in public spaces about my lifestyle and relationship. i guess i have realized that i simply don't want/need the validation anymore, nor do i want to be that "open" other than with those i trust implicitly.

 

[EmpressFi]

Now I'd like some other perspectives...

1) Do you feel the need to justify participating in the lifestyle? Is justification necessary on a personal level, or only if you are challenged by someone else? Is posting with like-minded people a way of enforcing self-justification?

I would say, only if challenged, but even then I cant say that I'd need to justify it. I might explain it once, to a friend who asked, but that would be it.

2) If someone judges you (negatively) for partaking in bdsm does it hurt or do you ignore them? What if it's someone you care about, like a family member or close (vanilla) friend?

Hmmm this is a good one. The people we've told have been very accepting. A few have asked questions, especially since we're poly. Only one person so far has been negative, and that's more by vibe than by anything she actually said. If I trusted them and they suddenly told me I was a whore and going to hell or vowed they'd no longer speak to me ~ hell yeah, it would hurt. It would hurt deeply, however, I cant change who I am and I'd have to determine which would hurt more. Losing them or denying myself.

3) Is bdsm anyone's business outside of the people who are exploring this world? Should anyone have the right to say someone is right or wrong when speaking for another?

Hell no. It's NO ONE's business what I do inside my own personal relationships, except for those directly involved. I can only speak for and decide for myself. I dont have the right to look at what someone else is doing and say it's wrong to do that. I can express my concerns, if asked, or even say how/why it's wrong for me. But everyone has their own lives and their choices should be respected.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Generally, I'm very private about Master and I's dynamic. We might attract the occasional comment about how deferential I am or how alpha he is but it's nothing major or perceived to be out of the ordinary. We don't want for him to be seen as a controlling asshole or for me to be seen as oppressed or weak so we put up a convincing normal front most of the time.

One friend came for coffee and to see our house after we moved in together and as I was showing her around I saw that my collar was hanging from a bedpost. I hoped that she wouldn't spot it but of course she did and her first question was 'so who wears the collar?' I was honest but we didn't discuss anything at length. She hasn't mentioned it since (except when she's pissed but then she doesn't remember the next day, handy that.)

Another friend, fellow poster Onyx, is a very good, old friend and with her I can dissemble and be fairly explicit about my lifestyle. Regardless of how accepted I am here on the forums, there is something cathartic about having a flesh and blood human (other than Master) sit in front of you and be accepting of your kink. I'm lucky because some people never have that.

Although I'm private (religious upbringing, closed minded relatives and friends in the main) about Master and I, I would never deny our dynamic if asked directly. I'm not ashamed of who I am, I just have no wish to attract censure. I have no interest in the love/sex lives of my friends and they pay me the same courtesy. It's nobody else's business.

 

[FurryFury]

Hello...someone today pm'd and suggested that bdsm is abusive and a PYL/pyl relationship is inherently immoral. I was informed I should be running out of this forum as fast as my legs can pump. My immediate reaction was to become defensive, then I laughed and finally moved on to introspection.

Now I'd like some other perspectives...

1) Do you feel the need to justify participating in the lifestyle? Is justification necessary on a personal level, or only if you are challenged by someone else? Is posting with like-minded people a way of enforcing self-justification?

2) If someone judges you (negatively) for partaking in bdsm does it hurt or do you ignore them? What if it's someone you care about, like a family member or close (vanilla) friend?

3) Is bdsm anyone's business outside of the people who are exploring this world? Should anyone have the right to say someone is right or wrong when speaking for another?

Obviously I'm still here and asking away I looked over the threads in the library about introspection and feeling ashamed. What I want to know is the flip-side: the affirmation that comes when you know something is right for you. Thank you for any possible insight on this rather dense question

1. Now that I've made peace with it for myself, I don't feel the need to justify it to anyone else. However I may attempt to open a mind or two, or educate some. Most people that I don't trust implicitly won't ever know that I'm into this.

2. I would consider them close minded and/or ignorant. I would not consider them a good friend. Family members are what they are. They don't know. They don't need to know. They already disapprove of so many things I do or don't do. I gave up trying to please them and/or seek their approval long ago. It just isn't possible. LMAO.

3. No it is not anyone else's business. Not even other people involved in BDSM should feel they can judge you. It happens but it sucks.

 

[madetotakeit]

1) Do you feel the need to justify participating in the lifestyle? Is justification necessary on a personal level, or only if you are challenged by someone else? Is posting with like-minded people a way of enforcing self-justification?

I don't feel the need to justify. This is me, take me or leave me as I am. If someone challenges me, I handle it the same way I would if they were to challenge any other aspect of me. I choose my battles. If the person has no effect on my life, I don't feel the need to explain squat. I don't post looking for self-justification. (Let's all say it, "I'm me and I'm okay.") I post because it is nice to interact with people who understand where I am coming from and because there are just some truly interesting people on here.

2) If someone judges you (negatively) for partaking in bdsm does it hurt or do you ignore them? What if it's someone you care about, like a family member or close (vanilla) friend?

BDSM is subjective. You either get it or you don't. The fact that someone else doesn't get it doesn't change how I look at them and if they are someone who matters I expect them to give me the same respect. That being said, I don't see having a heart to heart with my parents about the things that their baby girl is into.

3) Is bdsm anyone's business outside of the people who are exploring this world? Should anyone have the right to say someone is right or wrong when speaking for another?

The only people in my opinion who can lay rights to it being their business are the people directly involved.Nobody has the right to say what is right or wrong for me because they are not ME. All I would have to say to that is try walking in my shoes before you attempt to enforce your belief system on me; and since you have your own life to lead, you have better ways to spend your time than judging mine.

What I want to know is the flip-side: the affirmation that comes when you know something is right for you. Thank you for any possible insight on this rather dense question

The affirmation for me was a better sense of self. Feeling more comfortable in my skin. Granted, I've seen more the promise and potential in how BDSM is going to enhance my life rather than experiencing first hand. (But, that's about to change. ) But as far as the mind set, of understanding how the physical can enhance the emotional end that I practiced for years without realizing it? That is as much affirmation as I need to know this is my way and to be happy with that and excited about what is to come.

 

[JamieB]

Generally, if I get a negative criticism from someone who doesn't know what the hell they're talking about, I give them a warm smile and say, "You're probably right."

J

 

[faeriefire]

(But, that's about to change. )

Congratulations *hug*

And thank you all for responding. I guess the word 'justification' has a lot of negative connotations I didn't take into consideration. Not to mention judgement (I guess I was in an intense mood *blushes*) With question #1(a) I didn't mean to ask if you feel the need to convince yourself the lifestyle was right for you. It's hard to get at...like when you know down to your core that your choices are right for you and affirm that you're where you need to be and content in your skin. That is what I meant by justification. Bad word choice *slaps wrist* Although I still find the responses interesting and am glad to have heard them.

I've been asking questions lately and reading, looking at religion, considering my background and really thinking waaaay too much lol. I was partially inspired to ask these questions by the aforementioned pm and partially by wondering how far into the lifestyle I will progress. On some levels the first step is learning more about this skin I'm in and owning it, but I already know the character and nature of me is bubbling out and won't be changed. Plus so much about me finally makes sense! It's great to hear from people who are past the newbie curiosity and continue to feel strongly that their nature should not be changed. Truth be told, now that I'm here, I don't think I'll ever go back It just wouldn't work. Perhaps that is my justification

 

[madetotakeit]

Congratulations *hug*

And thank you all for responding. I guess the word 'justification' has a lot of negative connotations I didn't take into consideration. Not to mention judgement (I guess I was in an intense mood *blushes*) With question #1(a) I didn't mean to ask if you feel the need to convince yourself the lifestyle was right for you. It's hard to get at...like when you know down to your core that your choices are right for you and affirm that you're where you need to be and content in your skin. That is what I meant by justification. Bad word choice *slaps wrist* Although I still find the responses interesting and am glad to have heard them.

I've been asking questions lately and reading, looking at religion, considering my background and really thinking waaaay too much lol. I was partially inspired to ask these questions by the aforementioned pm and partially by wondering how far into the lifestyle I will progress. On some levels the first step is learning more about this skin I'm in and owning it, but I already know the character and nature of me is bubbling out and won't be changed. Plus so much about me finally makes sense! It's great to hear from people who are past the newbie curiosity and continue to feel strongly that their nature should not be changed. Truth be told, now that I'm here, I don't think I'll ever go back It just wouldn't work. Perhaps that is my justification

I don't think justification is a bad choice of words at all. I think it has garnered some good responses. When I first realized this side of myself existed years ago, I suppose I was looking for understanding why more so than a reason to support what I was feeling. However, it did take time before I found that comfort level. I had to look inside at some of the aspects of myself that I wasn't comfortable with and come to grips with some of the things I had experienced before I was ready to have that "Ah, I see now" moment. I wasn't able to see all the way in until I was ready. Now that I am past that point, nobody could convince me to be any other way.

 

[Homburg]

Hello...someone today pm'd and suggested that bdsm is abusive and a PYL/pyl relationship is inherently immoral. I was informed I should be running out of this forum as fast as my legs can pump. My immediate reaction was to become defensive, then I laughed and finally moved on to introspection.

How come I never get PM's like that? C'mon, judge me! Send me nasty PM's. I could use the entertainment =P

Now I'd like some other perspectives...

1) Do you feel the need to justify participating in the lifestyle? Is justification necessary on a personal level, or only if you are challenged by someone else? Is posting with like-minded people a way of enforcing self-justification?

Meh. I used to wargame. I'd post on boards on wargaming. I used to play EQ.
I would post on boards for EQ. I used to have a 1974 Honda CB750. I was on a board for CB750 owners. It is enjoyable communicating with folks that have similar interests. You can learn things, and, frankly, they'll understand your geeky jokes on the topic.

2) If someone judges you (negatively) for partaking in bdsm does it hurt or do you ignore them? What if it's someone you care about, like a family member or close (vanilla) friend?

Pfft. Let em judge. If they're cool about it, I'll talk to em. If not, something akin to JamieB's answer comes up. "Isn't that dangerous?" "Yup." "Are you some kind of freak?" "Definitely. Thank you for noticing."

3) Is bdsm anyone's business outside of the people who are exploring this world? Should anyone have the right to say someone is right or wrong when speaking for another?

If it involves my offspring who are still living at home (or at college and I'm paying for it), yup. If it involves my spouse, yup. If it takes place on my property, yup. That's about it, in my eyes.

 

[intothewoods]

1) Do you feel the need to justify participating in the lifestyle? Is justification necessary on a personal level, or only if you are challenged by someone else? Is posting with like-minded people a way of enforcing self-justification?


No. If anything I did interfered with my work or being a parent, then I'd have to take a step back. But that hasn't happened.

2) If someone judges you (negatively) for partaking in bdsm does it hurt or do you ignore them? What if it's someone you care about, like a family member or close (vanilla) friend?

It can be hard, but generally most friends are supportive. For those who don't get it, I just don't share that part of my life.

3) Is bdsm anyone's business outside of the people who are exploring this world? Should anyone have the right to say someone is right or wrong when speaking for another?

I think friends who care will challenge things for that reason. Sometimes bdsm itself might be a red herring, and they're really concerned by what is sub frenzy, or relationship hopping, etc.

 

[twysted73]

** Bumps for the hell of it ***

1) Do you feel the need to justify participating in the lifestyle? Is justification necessary on a personal level, or only if you are challenged by someone else? Is posting with like-minded people a way of enforcing self-justification?

I think self-justification is a defensive tool used by those who are already doubtful on some level of their own involvement or commitment to said activity or belief.
So, no, I don't feel any sort of need to justify who I am or what I like.
Some things I like should be (and in some states, ARE) illeagle.
But they catch my interest nonetheless.
Am I to be branded sick and tossed to the bowels of hell? No.
Especially with the religous types who, for the life of them, cannot get around my argument of "Does god make mistakes? (then) Are we created by God? (followed by) Are we created in His image? (finished with) If we are created by Him and no other, and in His image and by his design, then explain to me why you think He opposes homosexuals if He doesn't make mistakes. Then, wouldn't it be intentional?

It makes them dizzy.
So no, by being who and what I am, I have no moral dilemma as to who/what I am and what I enjoy. Being omnipotent, He knew I'd be this way before I was ever born. Why send me here to make mistakes he knew I'd make only to punish me for them later?
But I digress. It's another's hang up/ignorance/lack of experience, maturity or understanding if they judge me for my way of being.
Why should I feel bad for it?

2) If someone judges you (negatively) for partaking in bdsm does it hurt or do you ignore them? What if it's someone you care about, like a family member or close (vanilla) friend?

As for family judgements....it hurts to think someone who shares my blood would be so unbending and superficially judgemental.
I still feel bad for them. I'm just kinder about it.

3) Is bdsm anyone's business outside of the people who are exploring this world? Should anyone have the right to say someone is right or wrong when speaking for another?

My business. I don't take great pains in hiding this part of myself however.
I wear a leather bracer on my left wrist almost daily.
I attend munches when I feel like it.
I engage in conversations or pick up inuendoes referring to bondage whenever I'm in earshot.
I feel it's my responsability to allow for a healthier understanding of BDSM if there are those willing to listen.
If all they've seen are from the movies like 8mm then it's tragically one-sided and disproportionate.
Not that I see myself as some messenger with a mission.
But I certainly won't shy from it if asked.

 

[SubKekiLee]

Hello...someone today pm'd and suggested that bdsm is abusive and a PYL/pyl relationship is inherently immoral. I was informed I should be running out of this forum as fast as my legs can pump. My immediate reaction was to become defensive, then I laughed and finally moved on to introspection.

Now I'd like some other perspectives...

1) Do you feel the need to justify participating in the lifestyle? Is justification necessary on a personal level, or only if you are challenged by someone else? Is posting with like-minded people a way of enforcing self-justification?I do not beleive that I need to justify why I choose to live the lifestyle I choose to live, although I used to hide it and I hid it extremely well, I still do not go out and proclaim it from the top of my lungs but if someone asks me I am very clear with them my choices, this is due to me being told/taught by my Sir I shouldnt be ashamed of whom I am, Ive been this way ALL my life.

2) If someone judges you (negatively) for partaking in bdsm does it hurt or do you ignore them? What if it's someone you care about, like a family member or close (vanilla) friend? Oh it hurts if it is a family member but I try to explain to them I am the happiest I've been in many many years by exploring this side of me, If I am pushed I would be forced to ignore them as what happens in my life is only my decision I have but one judge and jury to appease and it isnt anyone here on this earth. I must anwser to myself If I can look at myself in the mirror everyday and be proud of whom I am then so be it. and if Sir is proud then who are you to judge me

3) Is bdsm anyone's business outside of the people who are exploring this world? Should anyone have the right to say someone is right or wrong when speaking for another? If someone wanted to know why I woudl point them in the direction of reading a book that might help them learn about the lifestyle there is not one soul on this earth who can tell me what I am doing is wrong or right as there are many many kinks in this world and we all have our quirks and kinks and who are we to judge.

Obviously I'm still here and asking away I looked over the threads in the library about introspection and feeling ashamed. What I want to know is the flip-side: the affirmation that comes when you know something is right for you. Thank you for any possible insight on this rather dense question

Do not feel Ashamed FF, Be proud of who you are and make your choices wisely and what happens while you are a consenting adult is your business and your PYL... End of story... IMHO

 

[twysted73]

No worries SKL, check the date on this. March. She's WELL past that stage.

 

[_kiana_]

1) Do you feel the need to justify participating in the lifestyle? Is justification necessary on a personal level, or only if you are challenged by someone else? Is posting with like-minded people a way of enforcing self-justification?

I stopped trying to justify when I got tired of second guessing myself I think. This is who I am, what I like, just me. So the justifying to myself slowed down as I accepted it as part of who I am. If someone else challenges me? I don't justify it to them either. I might try to explain that it's similar to other characteristics we're born with but I don't think it gets to the point of actual justification. And I don't post enough to consider my participation much of anything

2) If someone judges you (negatively) for partaking in bdsm does it hurt or do you ignore them? What if it's someone you care about, like a family member or close (vanilla) friend?

If it's someone close, it can hurt. But I tend to not make friends with people who are not at least open minded anymore. People I don't know so well? Meh. If I feel like enlightening someone at that moment, I might try explaining or changing their judgment. Most of the time I just ignore it though.

3) Is bdsm anyone's business outside of the people who are exploring this world? Should anyone have the right to say someone is right or wrong when speaking for another?

No, it's not anyone else's business. Just like it's no one else's business if I have more than one partner, never wear panties, or only eat PB&J. People close to me might have concerns if all I ate was PB&J, and they might be worried for my well being. They have a right to bring it up with me and I would try to explain, to ease their concerns. But it might just come down to agree to disagree, cuz maybe I just don't want to eat anything else. But to unequivocally say it's wrong? Nope. Not their life, not their territory.

I feel like there's more I want to say, but I can't get it into words.

 

[Adakgirl]

I would at least bring up the point that... in fact, many vanilla relationships tend to be abusive whereas BDSM M/s D/s are not. Abuse is rarely a factor in this lifestyle choice. There is no consent given in vanilla abusive relationships, no respect, no honor, trust is destroyed rather than earned, built up and maintained. Not relationships at all really. They are never happy, they can't grow. They only destroy. They can't be maintained past a certain point. Usually that point is when the woman or g/f ends up dead.

In BDSM M/s D/s relationships there is almost always, consent, trust, respect, grace, love and honor. They can grow, they thrive, they strive for the happiness of both partners. The people involved are engaged in each other, care about one another and look out for the others best interest.
Things that simply do not exist in vanilla relationships that are abusive.

They can check those facts out by simply looking at the statistics on spousal abuse in America.
hope that reads like I intended it too.

 

[00Syd]

I feel like knowing what's right for me and being true to myself is the most important thing. If someone wants to judge me for it, fine. If someone wants to tell me that what I am doing is wrong, well, fine. I am lucky enough to know myself, to have the guts to acknowledge my needs as legitimate, and to do what feels right. How can that be a bad thing?

 

[SavannahMann]

Justification, or feelings on lifestyle.

I covered this a lot when I was writing my first story, Family Tradition of Bondage. In that story, I had the vanilla friend slamming up against the wall of the love, for each other, and the lifestyle they shared, of the hero/heroine of the story. I've even cheated a bit, and gone deeper into it in my current story, The Vassal Academy.

The thing is this, we all find something that talks to us. Be it a lifestyle, or a hobby, or work. Something that just feels right when we're doing it, and we feel incomplete when we're not.

To my friends, and associates, I simply answer that I've experimented in life more than they have, and have found something that I enjoy doing. Each participant understands the life, and understands the choices. Safe, sane, and consensual.

People get wrapped up in the lies of our society. They speak about the liberation of women. They claim that it means a woman should be able to do what she wants. Yet, if that woman chooses to be submissive, then she's betraying the sex. Why can't her liberation include anything she wants? Why do we put such a taboo on this lifestyle? Is it the terms we use? Master, and slave? The negative connotations of the terms are well known. Is it the implements of our lifestyle? The whips and chains, and the history of some hundred and fifty years ago? Is it the extreme sex?

I think it's all of that, and a large dose of ignorance. Most people want roses, and they don't understand those of us who want the thorns. Most people want the lace doily's, most of us want the leather bindings. We're often limited in our discussions by the inadequacies of the language. How do you describe the joy of subspace to someone who's never done it? How do you describe the extreme orgasm from a long period of orgasm denial and arousal torture to someone who's never done it? How do you explain the way that pain, and pleasure mix erotically to create an orgasm that feels like it's turning you inside out to someone who refuses to even consider the possibility?

At least in your own community, those who have been there, and done it, or at least able to imagine it, understand your language. Those of us who think we've reached a limit, something that we can't overcome, understand your struggles with the lifestyle, and the special demands of our chosen roles.

It's tough for someone to imagine subdrop, the flu like depression that is so horrible if they're living vanilla isn't it? All they see is the danger, the humiliation, and the degradation that is a part of what we do. They don't see the joy, the love, and the part of our souls that this life answers.

 

[kinkyknickers]

Out and proud total bloody minded masochist in a relationship with an equally fucked up dom and a big sook of a sub (hehe, get well soon hey minxie).

It's nobody's business, but sometimes I like to give hints and make it other peoples business , just to fuck with their heads.

It's great sport.

If you can't beat 'em, tie them down and flog 'em instead (and I'll join 'em).

KK

 

[twysted73]

Out and proud total bloody minded masochist in a relationship with an equally fucked up dom and a big sook of a sub (hehe, get well soon hey minxie).

It's nobody's business, but sometimes I like to give hints and make it other peoples business , just to fuck with their heads.

It's great sport.

If you can't beat 'em, tie them down and flog 'em instead (and I'll join 'em).

KK

Outstanding.