NY Gov Spitzer linked to prostitution

[DesertPirate]

Really? Seems to say different here, from a source that has to be able to back up its information or face prosecution.

Army Intelligence still claims the U.S. never entered Cambodia until 1969. My father was there three years earlier.

Army Intelligence also claims my brother suffered injuries in 1990 when a radio was "torn" off his back in an "accident" during a "training mission in Honduras". My brother seems to believe it was 1) not torn off, but shot off 2) Absolutely done deliberately, not by accident 3) on an actual mission with definable objectives not a training mission and 4) in Nicarauga.

Guess who I believe...

Army Intelligence doesn't say that. Dept. of the Army PR mouthpieces say that. You and I don't have the clearances to know what the real spooks have to say. As for Plame, if she had been on a covert assignment I would pull the trigger on whoever outted her. She wasn't and it was said that she wouldn't be. You can only do that shit a couple of times before someone tumbles to you.

 

[Stella_Omega]

It would be a colossal waste of everybody's time. Untill last year, they would not have mustered enough votes in the House. Even now, I doubt that they could. If they could, it would never survive the Senate, and would be strictly a waste of time and effort.

I don't know that it would be any worse than the try at Clinton, but it would be about as bad.

It would be better for our standing with the rest of the world. Here we are pretending to be the police of the world, and we don't police ourselves.

My European friends say that the private U.S. citizens were still being welcomed through the 04 election. Then, when the election was lost, they agreed (some of them) that Deibold had a thumb on the scales. But the world has been wondering what the fuck is wrong with the US since then. Why we continue to let this gang run amuck. There's a distinct feeling that the citizens of the US have lost the nous we once had.

I don't know about you, Box, but I do not like to feel confined within the borders of this nation. I don't like being the rube anywhere else I go in the world.

 

[sr71plt]

Well, I'm just not sure he's done anything wrong except suck as a president, with an old Congress that didn't mind letting him suck, and a new Congress that lets him continue to suck.

When I think of impeachment, I think of "did something illegal/criminal"; I'm afraid to consider impeachment a tool of "beltway politics", y'know?

Well, umm, I don't think you've been listening to too much news or reading too many newspapers in the last five or six years then. But that's OK, I don't feel a compulsion to bring you up to speed.

 

[Stella_Omega]

...As for Plame, if she had been on a covert assignment I would pull the trigger on whoever outted her. ..

Isn't it illegal to threaten the President these days?

 

[shereads]

You could probably find 25 people who want to impeach Georgie in ten minutes, unless, of course, you cherry- pick for ignorance.

He wouldn't have to look far to find people who are, or claim to be, ignorant of any possible illegalities in the Bush administration. All the books, all the documented evidence of a pre-existing Iraq agenda, all the Halliburton financial scandals; the fact that Halliburton might have been facing bankruptcy if not for the magnificent windfall of the Iraq war...If you don't read that stuff, it's just rumor and innuendo. Not logical! Not facts!

Simply lying isn't a crime, is it? Not unless it's 'under oath.' And it's easy to avoid that pitfall if you simply refuse to testify under oath.

No oath, no problem.

 

[sr71plt]

Army Intelligence doesn't say that. Dept. of the Army PR mouthpieces say that. You and I don't have the clearances to know what the real spooks have to say. As for Plame, if she had been on a covert assignment I would pull the trigger on whoever outted her. She wasn't and it was said that she wouldn't be. You can only do that shit a couple of times before someone tumbles to you.

I do (have the clearances). And I did (say it from the perspective of having those clearance and having done that work). But you don't need any sort of clearances. The United States is a sieve. Everything I posted is publicly available--for anyone who bothers to look for it. If you don't bother to look for it, I guess you can conveniently pretend it doesn't exist.

On the other hand, I'm not tempted to pull the trigger, other than metaphorically, on Bush and his handlers over this. That's sort of off the wall John Waynish, and going in the wrong direction too. They should just have their butts kicked up between their shoulder blades and shown the door.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Well, umm, I don't think you've been listening to too much news or reading too many newspapers in the last five or six years then. But that's OK, I don't feel a compulsion to bring you up to speed.

I really don't claim to know everything. I've seen a lot of speculation on conspiracy in the White House... but I must have missed the news coverage of "Bush commits crime". You don't have to bring me up to speed, just tell me which paper broke that story so I can go search for it.

 

[shereads]

You and I don't have the clearances to know what the real spooks have to say.

But you don't need clearance; you have 'the story' from someone in Army Intelligence.

 

[sr71plt]

I really don't claim to know everything. I've seen a lot of speculation on conspiracy in the White House... but I must have missed the news coverage of "Bush commits crime". You don't have to bring me up to speed, just tell me which paper broke that story so I can go search for it.

Naw, if you didn't see it flapping in your face for years (missed all of those indictments and resignations of his scapegoats? and the now "You purposely lied to us about Iraq" which seems to be on about everyone's lips by now?), you aren't open to looking at it. Which is OK with me. If you're really interested, you'll do your own research. No reason for me to carry your responsibility bucket for you.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Naw, if you didn't see it flapping in your face for years (missed all of those indictments and resignations of his scapegoats? and the now "You purposely lied to us about Iraq" which seems to be on about everyone's lips by now?), you aren't open to looking at it. Which is OK with me. If you're really interested, you'll do your own research. No reason for me to carry your responsibility bucket for you.

It seems like you're saying that nobody has broken the story of Bush committing a crime, then. Which would go a long way in explaining why I haven't seen that news story. I got it, now; see, I thought when you said it was out there that you meant it was out there, not that suggestions of it were out there--I already knew that much.

 

[shereads]

I really don't claim to know everything. I've seen a lot of speculation on conspiracy in the White House... but I must have missed the news coverage of "Bush commits crime". You don't have to bring me up to speed, just tell me which paper broke that story so I can go search for it.

if a newspaper did the work of an impeachment committee and convicted Bush and/or Cheney of lying to get Congress to approve war powers, you'd be the first one questioning the credibility of "the media."

 

[Stella_Omega]

It seems like you're saying that nobody has broken the story of Bush committing a crime, then. Which would go a long way in explaining why I haven't seen that news story. I got it, now; see, I thought when you said it was out there that you meant it was out there, not that suggestions of it were out there--I already knew that much.

It has to be printed before it can be true, huh?
I'm sure you can find some newspaper that's put it in print. Maybe the Washington Post, or the New York Times, or the Chicago Herald-Tribune.

In further breaking news, did you know that Amelia Erhardt has been discovered living on a Pacific atoll? It was in the National Enquirer.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Naw, if you didn't see it flapping in your face for years (missed all of those indictments and resignations of his scapegoats? and the now "You purposely lied to us about Iraq" which seems to be on about everyone's lips by now?), you aren't open to looking at it. Which is OK with me. If you're really interested, you'll do your own research. No reason for me to carry your responsibility bucket for you.

It's my understanding that it was generally believed that there were WMD's in Iraq, and this belief came from intel from the CIA, Mossad and the British Secret Service. It also came from the fact that they had been known to be there quite recently, because some of them had been used against Kurds and Iranians. Passing on incorrect info when you have every reason to trust it is not lying.

Since when is it an impeachable offense for a politician to lie, as long as it is not perjury?

 

[sr71plt]

It seems like you're saying that nobody has broken the story of Bush committing a crime, then. Which would go a long way in explaining why I haven't seen that news story. I got it, now; see, I thought when you said it was out there that you meant it was out there, not that suggestions of it were out there--I already knew that much.

No, that isn't remotely what I posted. But I'm not falling into this "try to fill my closed mind" time/effort pit, thank you very much. Fine with me for you to think what you like.

 

[Boxlicker101]

It would be better for our standing with the rest of the world. Here we are pretending to be the police of the world, and we don't police ourselves.

My European friends say that the private U.S. citizens were still being welcomed through the 04 election. Then, when the election was lost, they agreed (some of them) that Deibold had a thumb on the scales. But the world has been wondering what the fuck is wrong with the US since then. Why we continue to let this gang run amuck. There's a distinct feeling that the citizens of the US have lost the nous we once had.

I don't know about you, Box, but I do not like to feel confined within the borders of this nation. I don't like being the rube anywhere else I go in the world.

I have been in three different foreign nations since the'04 elections, and nowhere was I made unwelcome or treated as a rube or boob anything of the sort.

 

[shereads]

It's my understanding that it was generally believed that there were WMD's in Iraq, and this belief came from intel from the CIA, Mossad and the British Secret Service. It also came from the fact that they had been known to be there quite recently, because some of them had been used against Kurds and Iranians. Passing on incorrect info when you have every reason to trust it is not lying.

Since when is it an impeachable offense for a politician to lie, as long as it is not perjury?

Jesus Christ, you can't really be this dense! Cheney hired a convicted con artist with an admitted pro-invasion agenda to provide much of this 'intelligence' that you say was 'generally believed.' Bush ORDERED the CIA to link Saddam to 9/11. The famous yellow-cake uranium letter was such an obvious fraud, it had a HAND-DRAWN STATE SEAL on the letterhead. Members of the Saudi royal family, known to have financial ties with Al Queda, were secretly flown out of the country while there was still a no-fly order after 9/11. Business associates of the Vice President avoided bankruptcy by being awarded no-bid contracts in Iraq, were accused of stealing from our soldiers, were threatened with stop-payments by the Army unless they accounted for missing funds, refused to be held accountable, continue to be paid, and have now moved their corporate headquarters to Dubai where they will be out of reach of prosecution once Cheney leaves office. We were threatened with mushroom clouds - and then told that nobody ever said anything about nuclear weapons. Osama Bin Laden was allowed to go free so Bush could concentrate our resources on what Rumsfeld called "good targets." Bush has lied about domestic spying. Bush has lied about everything except his sex life. He just hasn't lied UNDER OATH because, on the one occasion when he was asked to swear an oath (9/11 Commission) he simply refused. How can he perjure himself if he is never forced to swear to tell the truth?

Of course, he did swear an oath once: to preserve and protect the Constitution. Since he's weakened our constitutional guarantee of habeas corpus, one could make a case that he lied when he took the Oath of Office.

First you say he didn't lie, because he believed his own 'shaped' evidence (and presumably disbelieved the evidence he deliberately downplayed or ignored or punished) and then you assert that lying isn't impeachable if it isn't perjury.

No wonder our country has lost its credibility. This is pathetic.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

if a newspaper did the work of an impeachment committee and convicted Bush and/or Cheney of lying to get Congress to approve war powers, you'd be the first one questioning the credibility of "the media."

It would depend on the newspaper, the facts presented, and a few other things--I'm not a fan of jumping to conclusions, in general

It has to be printed before it can be true, huh?
I'm sure you can find some newspaper that's put it in print. Maybe the Washington Post, or the New York Times, or the Chicago Herald-Tribune.

Well, I would say something can be true independant of its being publicized, but I don't know facts that I don't know... and knowing things requires belief and justification--I /believe/ that Bush has done something wrong, but I do not /know/ that he has and as far as I know, nobody's /proven/ it yet... so I'm doubly sure I don't know.

No, that isn't remotely what I posted. But I'm not falling into this "try to fill my closed mind" time/effort pit, thank you very much. Fine with me for you to think what you like.

I think I've got a very open mind, I just have very clear definitions. I said I wasn't certain Bush did something criminal, you said "its been out there for years", I said where was it that he did something criminal, you said that there'd been suggestions of it, I acknolwedged that I've heard that... and at the end of the day, I still don't have certainty. Did you not catch that?

 

[shereads]

I have been in three different foreign nations since the'04 elections, and nowhere was I made unwelcome or treated as a rube or boob anything of the sort.

Well you are now.

 

[sr71plt]

It's my understanding that it was generally believed that there were WMD's in Iraq, and this belief came from intel from the CIA, Mossad and the British Secret Service. It also came from the fact that they had been known to be there quite recently, because some of them had been used against Kurds and Iranians. Passing on incorrect info when you have every reason to trust it is not lying.

Since when is it an impeachable offense for a politician to lie, as long as it is not perjury?

There were WMD in Iraq at one time, yes, and we knew they were there because we sold/gave them to Iraq in the first place--to use them on Iran in their last war--a war that reflected our regional policy when it was being successful: play the Iranians and Iraqis off against each other so they will wear themselves down and be of no nuisance value to anyone else, especially the United States. (We supplied stuff to Iran at the same time for the same reason, by the way--but not as much as we sent to Iraq. When it comes to having and dispensing WMDs, the United States is top dog).

However, the Iraqis used most of it on Iran (as intended), some of it on the Kurds (as not intended). They sold some of it (which was definitely not intended). And they let a lot of it deteriorate or fall apart (which was expected). All of this before we invaded the second time (most of it before our first Iraq intervention, actually).

But this is where the lie comes in. We had pretty good (not very good, but pretty good) records on what was depleted--and where it went. I know, because I was one of the record keepers during a stint as assistant arms control coordinator of one of the intell agencies (not the CIA--I was on detail). We surmised pretty closely that there wasn't much of anything left--certainly not enough to go to war over--and SURPRISE we were right (unless someone's found some in the last couple of days). And these records were reported upward regularly. (And additional copies were quickly and nervously sent back up when the claim was made by the administration--not acknowledged and no "thank you" for correcting us and saving the United States from a "down the drain" war, of course.)

This can all be read in Michael Scheuer's best-seller Imperial Hubris (which I helped put together)--and which cleared the CIA censors in irritation of having been scapegoated on this issue.

But the WMDs aren't the biggest and nastiest lie in this. The "We must attack Iraq because of 9/11" is the biggest, baldest lie of the Bush administration. Not only weren't the Iraqis involved in 9/11 or al-Qaida, Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden hated and mistrusted (and did not work with) each other far more than either hated the United States. We (the intell community) knew that; the administration knew that. Osama bin Laden offered to knock Saddam off for us (and we were probably dumb not to take him up on the offer). This was no secret in the White House, or much of anywhere else for that matter (as I posted earlier, the United States is a sieve where secrets are concerned).

The presence of al-Qaida in Iraq came after we invaded, made possible by our invasion. We spread terrorism to Iraq all by ourselves. There wasn't any there when Saddam held an iron fist there. And it was quite all right with us if Saddam held an iron fist in his country right up until Bush the Lesser let his embarrassment overcome him that Bush the Greater hadn't "gone to Baghdad" in the earlier Iraq war. (We've gone to Baghdad now; and isn't it wonderful fun to be there?)

And this can all be read in Michael Scheuer's best-seller Through Our Enemies' Eyes: Osama bin Laden, Radical Islam, and the Future of America (which I helped put together)--and which cleared the CIA censors in irritation of having been scapegoated on this issue.

Both of these lies were known to be lies by the Bush administration when they stated them and these lies were fed to the Congress as the truth. Seems an impeachable offense to me and something all those mothers of dead U.S. soldiers should be a little interested in.

Michael Scheuer, incidentally, was the chief of the CIA's Iraq combined analytical task force before and during the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

 

[shereads]

It would depend on the newspaper, the facts presented, and a few other things--I'm not a fan of jumping to conclusions, in general

You're not a fan of jumping from Point A to Point B when Point A is on fire and Point B is a convenient pool of water.

You don't want to believe that the allegations against Bush and Cheney have merit, so you continue to assert that there's no proof, ignoring the fact that the way criminal allegations are proven is by holding a trial (an impeachment trial, in the president's case.) There are vast stockpiles of evidence that these people lied to Congress and the American people. That you choose not to look at the evidence doesn't make it any less compelling.

 

[shereads]

Both of these lies were known to be lies by the Bush administration when they stated them and these lies were fed to the Congress as the truth. Seems an impeachable offense to me and something all those mothers of dead U.S. soldiers should be a little interested in.

It wasn't perjury, though. It was just fibbing.

 

[sr71plt]

I think I've got a very open mind, I just have very clear definitions. I said I wasn't certain Bush did something criminal, you said "its been out there for years", I said where was it that he did something criminal, you said that there'd been suggestions of it, I acknolwedged that I've heard that... and at the end of the day, I still don't have certainty. Did you not catch that?

I really, really have no intention of getting into a bottomless pit of a debate with you, with you using the "I don't hear you, spend all of your time giving me reams and reams of evidence that I'm going to ignore and ask for more" technique--although I've posted a pretty detailed response to Boxlicker on some of this now, including reference material you can jolly well track down and read for yourself if you are truly "open minded."

I will say that you are a real cutie if that's you in your Avatar--but that I think your form of open minded just might be so open that nothing sticks.

Happy to go back to discussing the cute Avatar, though.

 

[sr71plt]

It wasn't perjury, though. It was just fibbing.

And God, John Wayne, and Jesse Helms told me to say it (as channeled through Dick Cheney).

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

You're not a fan of jumping from Point A to Point B when Point A is on fire and Point B is a convenient pool of water.

No, I believe I would jump in that instance.

You don't want to believe that the allegations against Bush and Cheney have merit, so you continue to assert that there's no proof, ignoring the fact that the way criminal allegations are proven is by holding a trial (an impeachment trial, in the president's case.) There are vast stockpiles of evidence that these people lied to Congress and the American people. That you choose not to look at the evidence doesn't make it any less compelling.

Are these statements or questions?

If they're statements, then you're wrong on the first and third parts (and aggressively/ignorantly so on that first one). If they're questions, then I can answer them and point out how they'd have been wrong as statements.

I really, really have no intention of getting into a bottomless pit of a debate with you, with you using the "I don't hear you, spend all of your time giving me reams and reams of evidence that I'm going to ignore and ask for more" technique--although I've posted a pretty detailed response to Boxlicker on some of this now, including reference material you can jolly well track down and read for yourself if you are truly "open minded."

I don't mind being pointed in the direction of that post--which one was it?

I will say that you are a real cutie if that's you in your Avatar--but that I think your form of open minded just might be so open that nothing sticks.

Happy to go back to discussing the cute Avatar, though.

That is me. And I've been accused of less accurate things than being open minded to a fault.

 

[Belegon]

As for Plame, if she had been on a covert assignment I would pull the trigger on whoever outted her. She wasn't and it was said that she wouldn't be. You can only do that shit a couple of times before someone tumbles to you.

Then you need to pull the trigger. Because it's not only every reputable democratically-leaning source that agrees that what was done was both borderline treasonous and in retaliation for her husband publicly criticizing the President, it's every reputable source And that includes foreign sources such as the BBC, who have no loyalty to the Democrats or Republicans. that has not clearly shown itself to be a shill for the NeoCons.
...and even they stammer and shuffle their feet and say things like, "well, she wasn't really involved in anything critical at that exact time..."

Take the blinders off. This administration has ruined our standing in the world, turned a surplus into a deficit with outrageous spending that has done nothing more than line the pockets of its friends and completely ignored the very real threat of the true terrorists who are still hiding in Afghanistan and Pakistan in favor of a disaster in Iraq.

Please, tell me... Republicans are supposed to be fiscally conservative and business-minded. What business would still be viable after spending three trillion dollars on a mistaken venture and continuing to pursue it with increased spending in search of an unachievable solution? And that is ignoring the worst and most horrible cost, the young Americans (and Iraqis) killed and wounded.

If Coca-Cola had done this with New Coke, we'd all be drinking Pepsi.

What would three trillion have done to overhaul health care? How far would it go in rebuilding New Orleans? How effective would it be if applied to education, or a cure for AIDS or Breast Cancer?

The betrayal of Valerie Plame is only one example of this utter incompetence and deception.