Whosisit?

[Misty_Morning]

Was reading this and thought...


well gee....Spain wants it but WHO did they plunder it from to begin with?




Ummmm....Spain got it from the americas. So if the salvagers don't get it, it needs to go back to the orignal owners, the native inhabitants of the Americas.


JMO.

 

[cloudy]

Was reading this and thought...


well gee....Spain wants it but WHO did they plunder it from to begin with?




Ummmm....Spain got it from the americas. So if the salvagers don't get it, it needs to go back to the orignal owners, the native inhabitants of the Americas.


JMO.

the link didn't work for me, darlin'.

 

[CrazyCatGuy]

EDIT: fixed link http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22826040/

It is also possible that it's not from the americas at all, since it was sunk off the coast of portugal. Possibly from Africa?

Either way, the people who originally posessed the silver has probably long since dissapeared.

 

[Ǽltya]

the link didn't work for me, darlin'.

Me either. And I always love a good plunder story.

 

[Lalah]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22826040/

 

[AvoidingRealWork]

Damn, this picture is hardcore numismatic porn:

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photo_StoryLevel/080124/080124-shipwreck2-hmed-12p.hmedium.jpg

 

[Misty_Morning]

oops....still getting used to the new setup her on lit. Sorry.



Thanks for the assistance folks!

 

[cloudy]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22826040/

Thanks.

Yep, it most likely came from the Americas, Spain took everything that they could carry.

As far as it being returned goes....well, I won't hold my breath. Nothing's ever been returned to any native people. Ever.

But, then.....I'll just leave it at that. Y'all know how I feel.

 

[Misty_Morning]

Thanks.

Yep, it most likely came from the Americas, Spain took everything that they could carry.

As far as it being returned goes....well, I won't hold my breath. Nothing's ever been returned to any native people. Ever.

But, then.....I'll just leave it at that. Y'all know how I feel.

I would love to see it going to original inhabitants of the area it was plundered from.

And just giving up and saying that that is the ways it has been is UNACCEPTABLE!

Giving up and giving in? YOU?

The origins of the silver can be determined by looking at the impurities within the metals, especially from that time period.

I am just wondering if there are any folks seeing the possibilities that I see.

 

[cloudy]

I would love to see it going to original inhabitants of the area it was plundered from.

And just giving up and saying that that is the ways it has been is UNACCEPTABLE!

Giving up and giving in? YOU?

The origins of the silver can be determined by looking at the impurities within the metals, especially from that time period.

I am just wondering if there are any folks seeing the possibilities that I see.

Oh, I won't ever give up, but trying to get any of it back to who it belonged to? Nah, won't happen. Suppose it was taken from the Aztecs (just suppose)...who are the Aztecs now? Oh, their descendents still live in the same area, the Indios, but they're not Aztecs anymore.

We have our culture still, pretty much intact, and that's what really matters.

 

[Misty_Morning]

Oh, I won't ever give up, but trying to get any of it back to who it belonged to? Nah, won't happen. Suppose it was taken from the Aztecs (just suppose)...who are the Aztecs now? Oh, their descendents still live in the same area, the Indios, but they're not Aztecs anymore.

We have our culture still, pretty much intact, and that's what really matters.

The Aztecs may not be around....but their descendants are.

 

[Weird Harold]

It is also possible that it's not from the americas at all, since it was sunk off the coast of portugal. Possibly from Africa?

(MSNBC)
The ship is widely believed to be the Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes, a Spanish galleon sunk by a British warship off Portugal in October 1804. That theory is supported by an export document in the court file indicating that Odyssey raised the coins from a site 180 nautical miles west of the Strait of Gibraltar.

Actually, from documentaries on previous Oddysey finds, it seems to me that the majority of New World silver was transported to Spain as ingots with very little of it being minted into coins in the new world. Since this find is almost entirely coins It sounds like a ship out-bound from Spain with coinage for the colonies.

The silver probably came from the America as ingots, but being coinage probably means it had already been to Spain.

 

[CrazyCatGuy]

Actually, from documentaries on previous Oddysey finds, it seems to me that the majority of New World silver was transported to Spain as ingots with very little of it being minted into coins in the new world. Since this find is almost entirely coins It sounds like a ship out-bound from Spain with coinage for the colonies.

The silver probably came from the America as ingots, but being coinage probably means it had already been to Spain.

Aaah... good to know thanks

 

[Weird Harold]

Google "Atocha" -- that's the best known and best documented Spanish "Treasure Galleon" slavae. (and a bunch of legal precedents on salvage rights in international waters.) It carried a lot of emeralds and gold/silver coins, but the majority of it's cargo was 40 tons of silver ingots.

 

[cantdog]

Oh, I won't ever give up, but trying to get any of it back to who it belonged to? Nah, won't happen. Suppose it was taken from the Aztecs (just suppose)...who are the Aztecs now? Oh, their descendents still live in the same area, the Indios, but they're not Aztecs anymore.

We have our culture still, pretty much intact, and that's what really matters.

The Aztecs. I was in México not long ago.

Let me assure you, cloudy, that México is an Aztec nation. A lot of Latin America is still trapped in the colonial past, to be sure. But in my view, México managed to become the nation of the Aztec. It's a brown country. The cuisine, which, let's stipulate, is basic? They eat pre-Columbian food, there, most of the time. Also, you see that the majority of the place names are Aztec, the Aztec names dominate when you consider the street names, the Aztec names ae usee for some 40% of the foodstuffs.

México is a brown nation. The indigenous population actually managed it. They successfully revolted. You see names in the native tongue for shops, schools, neighborhoods, all kinds of things.

 

[keeblercrumb]

It just strikes me has a slippery slope of a "legal" claim by Spain.

About half the world is filled with plunder from the other half.... I think we call them museums. It is a growing controversy as Italy, Greece, Egypt seek to recover their history from the likes of England, France...

But from where did Greece, Rome, Egypt and Aztecs plunder THEIR wealth from? For millennia, plunder has been even more popular than rape as the reward for military adventures.... including among North American natives..

In the far more recent past, the nazi's were infamous for their appropriation of the wealth and art of Jewish and other conquered peoples.... And, in turn, Germany was systematically plundered by Russia and the "Allies"... Should these "treasures" be returned?

As simple as we would all want this issue to be..... it just isn't. The best we can do is strive for some kind of international law and standard and just go with it.

Given the above... I think that the finders of this treasure, if truly in international waters, are the legal owners of it.

-KC

 

[TE999]

When someone says it's not the money, it's the principle -- it's the money.

Silver coins are not what I'd call cultural artifacts.

 

[Boxlicker101]

It probably came from South or Central America or Mexico, but it might have come from Africa or the Philippines. All those areas were conquered by Spain and, in 1804, were part of the empire.

However, the question would arrise: If it was taken away from the Aztecs, where did they get it? The Aztecs were just as bad at conquering and plundering as Spain or England or France or any other colonial powers. That's why the laws of salvage will take precedence. Nobody knows who should rightly own it.