feminist partner

[interrobang]

I'm a lurker, pretty much, but here's a question that I hope someone here can help with:

My partner is an old-school feminist. Fairly innocuous stuff like pinup illustrations upset her. She's hyper-intelligent, overeducated, and has actually thought about this stuff a lot.

Me, I'm bdsm lightweight. Not interested in total lifestyle changes, but power relationships interest me. When I surf porn, I'm drawn to bondage kinda stuff. With other girlfriends, I always enjoyed the ones who were game to get tied up, in a lightweight kinda way. I've been on the submissive end of things now and then, but it doesn't do a lot for me, really.

So bondage photos, submissive women, etc. -- these things upset her. We're not going there as a couple. But if she found some of the crap I enjoy looking at, she would feel totally betrayed.

Thoughts? Besides dumping her? Other than this issue, she's an amazing person.

 

[DeservingBitch]

I'm a lurker, pretty much, but here's a question that I hope someone here can help with:

My partner is an old-school feminist. Fairly innocuous stuff like pinup illustrations upset her. She's hyper-intelligent, overeducated, and has actually thought about this stuff a lot.

Me, I'm bdsm lightweight. Not interested in total lifestyle changes, but power relationships interest me. When I surf porn, I'm drawn to bondage kinda stuff. With other girlfriends, I always enjoyed the ones who were game to get tied up, in a lightweight kinda way. I've been on the submissive end of things now and then, but it doesn't do a lot for me, really.

So bondage photos, submissive women, etc. -- these things upset her. We're not going there as a couple. But if she found some of the crap I enjoy looking at, she would feel totally betrayed.

Thoughts? Besides dumping her? Other than this issue, she's an amazing person.

We have at least one recent thread on feminism and BDSM. You could refer her to this thread.

Or send her to this feminist pro-sm blog: http://sm-feminist.blogspot.com/

I'm a very radical leftish feminist, and I am very much into BDSM myself, and don't see any contradiction with both. Maybe remind your GF that BDSM rests on the principle of 'consent', probably more so than any 'vanilla' sex.

As for porn... well, there is of course a lot of problems with the industry, the exploitation of women's labor and bodies being one of them. And if your GF is a anti-porn feminist... well, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.

Feminists have been having this debate over porn for the last 40 years or so, and there's no feminist debate that frustrates me more than the sex wars debate.

So, no real advice here, other than either hiding your porn, dumping her, or trying to convince her against her views. Good luck if you go for the later.

 

[Netzach]

Oy.

Sorry I can't be more productive.

 

[DeservingBitch]

Oh I know!

Instead of going for the 'mainstream' BDSM porn (as much as BDSM porn can be mainstream of course), you could go only for feminist dyke female-produced BDSM porn. It's much hotter and better produced than most porn anyways, you get girl-on-girl action, and you have an argument against your anti-porn feminist GF when/if she finds it and freak out:

"But honey, look, it is produced only by feminist female-producer, directed at a dyke audience, performed by dykes, with no men in view".

Add to that that the kind of feminists who are anti-porn tend to be the kind of feminists who see dyke sex as the only acceptable form of sex for feminists, and you have yourself there a winning argument.

 

[interrobang]

Oh I know!

Instead of going for the 'mainstream' BDSM porn (as much as BDSM porn can be mainstream of course), you could go only for feminist dyke female-produced BDSM porn. It's much hotter and better produced than most porn anyways, you get girl-on-girl action,

----------

Add to that that the kind of feminists who are anti-porn tend to be the kind of feminists who see dyke sex as the only acceptable form of sex for feminists, and you have yourself there a winning argument.

You're right. For my own enjoyment, I prefer m/f stuff. F/F scenes in the mainstream are often cheesy.

She dated women most of her adult life -- not because she's a feminist, probably the other way around. Men are a new-ish thing for her, and we're not young. She knows I dig porn, but we don't watch it together. We both know there's feminist porn, but I don't really want to watch something with her and have it fail some test that I'm not even aware of. That would kinda take the fun out of it.

She's on the porn-is-bad side of feminism, and I don't see changing her mind as my goal, we just have to negotiate some middle ground. The D/S flavor of some of the stuff I like just makes it that much harder.

 

[DeservingBitch]

You're right. For my own enjoyment, I prefer m/f stuff. F/F scenes in the mainstream are often cheesy.

Believe me, there's a lot of good dyke BDSM porn out there that is everything but cheesy. You have to go outside of the mainstream that caters to a het male audience though.

Seriously, that's the best 'compromise' I can come up with for you.

 

[interrobang]

Believe me, there's a lot of good dyke BDSM porn out there that is everything but cheesy. You have to go outside of the mainstream that caters to a het male audience though.

Seriously, that's the best 'compromise' I can come up with for you.

Thanks, I appreciate the suggestions. Got favorite directors in the dyke/SM genre?

 

[Netzach]

Oh I know!

Instead of going for the 'mainstream' BDSM porn (as much as BDSM porn can be mainstream of course), you could go only for feminist dyke female-produced BDSM porn. It's much hotter and better produced than most porn anyways, you get girl-on-girl action, and you have an argument against your anti-porn feminist GF when/if she finds it and freak out:

"But honey, look, it is produced only by feminist female-producer, directed at a dyke audience, performed by dykes, with no men in view".

Add to that that the kind of feminists who are anti-porn tend to be the kind of feminists who see dyke sex as the only acceptable form of sex for feminists, and you have yourself there a winning argument.

Maybe.

I think the reaction of someone like this to the sites I like would be "well they're just replicating fucked up sexist dynamics."

To which I say, so, aren't we all, duh, but that may not cut it...

 

[DeservingBitch]

Thanks, I appreciate the suggestions. Got favorite directors in the dyke/SM genre?

I don't do favorites. It's unfair for the ones that don't get picked.

Seriously, I've been porned-out for a while, so haven't watched much porn lately. A google search should send you on a few interesting paths. You could also look for dyke sex blogs - a lot of them do porn reviews. Check the blogroll of the blog I quoted in my first post. Or maybe also this one: http://www.sugarbutch.net/.

I'll do some search in my files and among my contacts and get back to you on this with more detailed suggestions.

 

[DeservingBitch]

Maybe.

I think the reaction of someone like this to the sites I like would be "well they're just replicating fucked up sexist dynamics."

To which I say, so, aren't we all, duh, but that may not cut it...

True.

See above comment about this whole feminist sex wars debate as profoundly annoying and aggravating.

 

[interrobang]

And it's not just about porn, anyway. It's about explaining what gets me off about power imbalances that she might understand. If I'm like -- Look, both these people are getting off! Shouldn't that be enough?

But then the woman who's on the submissive side is probably enjoying it because she has no self-esteem and has been totally programmed by the patriarchy... (Imagining the discussion.)

So dyke bdsm gets around a man dominating a woman. But. Some of the stuff I like is ALL about a man dominating a fem partner, since that's the gender combo I prefer.

 

[interrobang]

Anyway. I'm thinkin' about this a lot. It's going to have to be negotiated in this relationship.

 

[DeservingBitch]

And it's not just about porn, anyway. It's about explaining what gets me off about power imbalances that she might understand. If I'm like -- Look, both these people are getting off! Shouldn't that be enough?

But then the woman who's on the submissive side is probably enjoying it because she has no self-esteem and has been totally programmed by the patriarchy... (Imagining the discussion.)

So dyke bdsm gets around a man dominating a woman. But. Some of the stuff I like is ALL about a man dominating a fem partner, since that's the gender combo I prefer.

I know what you mean.

I've promised to myself to never again get into this kind of argument with those kind of feminists. There's no way out of it, and it just aggravates me.

The only argument that I have seen bringing some sort of reflection and questioning of their position by those feminists is when I point out that strangely enough, they are saying something uncomfortably similar to what fundamentalist christian ring wings are saying about porn and sex. Which should be cause for concerns for any feminist.

Doesn't always work thought, and often not to the extent you'd want.

Sorry - can't be more helpful.

 

[graceanne]

You might want to point out to her that the point of the feminist movement was choice - that women would have the choice to do what THEY want. Not what society or other feminists think that they should do, but what THEY want. That includes . . . stripping naked for photo's if they want. Or letting their SO tie them up.

 

[graceanne]

The only argument that I have seen bringing some sort of reflection and questioning of their position by those feminists is when I point out that strangely enough, they are saying something uncomfortably similar to what fundamentalist christian ring wings are saying about porn and sex. Which should be cause for concerns for any feminist.

ROFL OMG I am SO gonna use that on my aunt one day.

 

[DeservingBitch]

You might want to point out to her that the point of the feminist movement was choice - that women would have the choice to do what THEY want. Not what society or other feminists think that they should do, but what THEY want. That includes . . . stripping naked for photo's if they want. Or letting their SO tie them up.

Nah. Doesn't cut it. It's this whole patriarchy brainwashing thing you see. The choices those women are making and which aren't approved of by True Feminists are choices that Teh Patriarchy brainwashed them to want.

The only women who aren't false-conscious and deluded by Teh Patriarchy are those enlighted True Feminists telling other women what to do/what not to do. I've never figured out how come the True Feminists weren't brainwashed or how come they managed to somehow undo the brainwashing that they see as impossible for women to get away from.

 

[graceanne]

Nah. Doesn't cut it. It's this whole patriarchy brainwashing thing you see. The choices those women are making and which aren't approved of by True Feminists are choices that Teh Patriarchy brainwashed them to want.

The only women who aren't false-conscious and deluded by Teh Patriarchy are those enlighted True Feminists telling other women what to do/what not to do. I've never figured out how come the True Feminists weren't brainwashed or how come they managed to somehow undo the brainwashing that they see as impossible for women to get away from.

Yeah, I know. *sigh* My dad's sisters and mom are like that. I worry about their kids being brainwashed by the 'matriarchy'. The women like this truelly deserve the title 'femi-nazis', cause their way it the ONLY WAY.

 

[JMohegan]

I'm a lurker, pretty much, but here's a question that I hope someone here can help with:

My partner is an old-school feminist. Fairly innocuous stuff like pinup illustrations upset her. She's hyper-intelligent, overeducated, and has actually thought about this stuff a lot.

Me, I'm bdsm lightweight. Not interested in total lifestyle changes, but power relationships interest me. When I surf porn, I'm drawn to bondage kinda stuff. With other girlfriends, I always enjoyed the ones who were game to get tied up, in a lightweight kinda way. I've been on the submissive end of things now and then, but it doesn't do a lot for me, really.

So bondage photos, submissive women, etc. -- these things upset her. We're not going there as a couple. But if she found some of the crap I enjoy looking at, she would feel totally betrayed.

Thoughts? Besides dumping her? Other than this issue, she's an amazing person.

Welcome to the board. To put my comments in perspective: I'm male, 49.

When I came of age, sexual harassment and the objectification of women were hot topics among the women of my immediate peer group. Every guy I knew had to choose between hiding his stash of Playboy & Penthouse and feigning disinterest, or facing various levels of disapproval from a mate. My personal interest in porn has waned considerably since then, but what worked for me back in the day is nevertheless what I would still recommend.

First off, respect your own fantasies and your right to them, and insist that she does too. Respect is a two-way street, and it is complete bullshit for her to insist that you bend over backwards for her sensibilities, feelings, desires, whatever, if she is unwilling to do the same for you.

Second, stay focused on the concept of women as adults with the capacity for informed choice. Call bullshit if she tries to have it both ways - i.e., if her arguments start sounding like we should all be protecting Miss April from the heinous consequences of her own choice to pose in the nude.

Third, ask about *her* fantasies. Everyone has them, and I've never yet met someone whose fantasies read like an Acceptable Conduct chapter from anybody's feminist handbook. The point of this is to highlight the fact that someone can have less-than-pristine fantasies and still be something other than a male chauvinist pig.

I am not suggesting that you engage in protracted debate. Rather, I am suggesting a calm, general (not detailed) acknowledgment of your porn preferences, followed by a brief but clear recitation of principles in response to any objections she might have.

In essence, this really is all about mutual respect. My suggestion is that you hold your ground on that point. There are multiple good reasons for doing so, including the fact that a relationship which is not based on mutual respect will be unsustainable in any case.

 

[DeservingBitch]

Yeah, I know. *sigh* My dad's sisters and mom are like that. I worry about their kids being brainwashed by the 'matriarchy'. The women like this truelly deserve the title 'femi-nazis', cause their way it the ONLY WAY.

Well, I profoundly dislike the term femi-nazis, first 'cause it's generally employed to dismiss all feminists and feminisms, and second 'cause seriously, could we just come up with something else (and something more appropriate and relevant) than 'nazi' for a change?

 

[graceanne]

Well, I profoundly dislike the term femi-nazis, first 'cause it's generally employed to dismiss all feminists and feminisms, and second 'cause seriously, could we just come up with something else (and something more appropriate and relevant) than 'nazi' for a change?

I know it's over used, but usually use it on the ones who deserve it. I don't particularly care if people use it when it's not deserved. I've been called things that I don't deserve, including a femi-nazi cause I'm a bit sexist. *shrugs*

As for 'nazi', what would you call 'em? I like nazi - K's the chocolate nazi, and the first time I called him that my mom nearly peed her pants.

 

[DeservingBitch]

And to further JMohegan's points, I would also point out that the feminist argument that 'the personal is political' has never meant that the way you fuck (or fantasize about) should be a reflection of your politics. Beyond respect for everyone involved and of course consent, there's no such thing as a feminist way of fucking or jerking off.

 

[DeservingBitch]

I know it's over used, but usually use it on the ones who deserve it. I don't particularly care if people use it when it's not deserved. I've been called things that I don't deserve, including a femi-nazi cause I'm a bit sexist. *shrugs*

As for 'nazi', what would you call 'em? I like nazi - K's the chocolate nazi, and the first time I called him that my mom nearly peed her pants.

I actually have no idea why 'nazi' has become the cool term to use to mean 'controlling' or something similar. It's politically and historically innacurate, and semantically annoying in my opinion.

And then, there's the argument presented by some that it trivializes what the nazi were and what they did.

I mostly find it annoyingly cliché.

 

[graceanne]

I actually have no idea why 'nazi' has become the cool term to use to mean 'controlling' or something similar. It's politically and historically innacurate, and semantically annoying in my opinion.

And then, there's the argument presented by some that it trivializes what the nazi were and what they did.

I mostly find it annoyingly cliché.

So . . . what would YOU call 'em?

 

[ammre]

deserving bitch

i kind of love you.



I worked in a women's center for a while and we would have discussions every now and then and one of them was alternative sex. Everyone piped up about lgbt and gender bending sex, but then I piped in with bdsm comments and that threw everyone through a loop. I kinda outed myself at that point and it was interesting to see them attempt to process it. I mean they were respectful since they were co-workers, but there were some rough patches. I have met some truely amazing people who aren't crazy who loathe mainstream porn and would like to see it done away with. There are some very intelligent schools of thought on it. But like all social theories, they can never truely be confirmed nor fixed.

original poster... if you feel strong enough intrest in BDSM you should talk to her about it. Come to her levelly and non confrontationaly. really laying it out in as well a thought out manner as possible is best. Let her know you would not do anything like that with her if it makes her uncomfortable, but they are thought you've had.

 

[JMohegan]

So . . . what would YOU call 'em?

female supremacists