So they cut up cartoons BUT...

[Saiyaman]

Just a few months ago I made myself the owner of a sattelite dish and now I'm able to watch whatever country's TV station is out there. But I limit myself to the Discovery Channels, the Nat geo channels and the Cartoon channels.

And while watching those cartoon channels (CN, Nick, Boomerang, Foxkids and JetX) I noted something interresting. I first noticed it a few years ago when I was really getting into anime series like "Dragonball Z" and I'm noticing it again with series like "Naruto" which I'm currently really getting into. They cut out things which they happily show in other cartoons.

Guns
There's a scene in the "Great Saiyaman saga" of Dragonball Z where Gohan stops a bankrobbery. Where the robbers are armed to the teeth and are shooting the whole interior of the bank to pieces before beginning a fire fight fight against the hopelessly out gunned police force. In the US Dubbed version, the whole fire fight was removed with the dialogue of the robbers changed into threatening to start firing. Or in the "Cell saga" when Android 17 and Android 18 are demolishing a city. A survivor, who lost his entire family to the murderous androids, raises his gun and fires at 17 hitting him directly in the face. Unscathed 17 walks up to the man who unsuccesfully fires more rounds at point blank range. 17 pulls out his own gun and with some Cowboy talk tells the man that his time has come. In the US Dubbed version, the whole scene of the guy shooting at 17 was removed and his dialogue was changed into telling 17 "Stop or I'll shoot" and when 17 draws his gun they actually changed the animation cells to remove it from his hands.

BUT
If the censores don't allow guns to be showcased in Dragonball Z, they apparently have no trouble with them appearing in other cartoons. Because Tom from Tom and Jerry, Elmer Fudd and Yosemite Sam are frequently seen brandishing guns. And not only in those old-school toons. Because in the "Powerpuff girls" the PPG frequently face criminals brandishing guns and firing all around

Blood
In a series like Naruto where they ways of the Ninja play a large role, getting a punch in the face is anything but cartoonish. For example when Sasuke faces Rock Lee at the Chunin exams, he gets a foot to his chin when Rock Lee starts his "Dance of the falling leaf" attack. Making him spew blood just after recieving that blow. Or later in that episode when Gai-Sensei appears and he punches Rock Lee in the face to punish him for displaying his secret technique so openly, blood streams from Rock Lee's mouth. In the US Dub the animation cells of both scenes were altered to take away the blood.

So...
...if the people who buy up such a series like Naruto to show on US TV have such an issue with Blood then why are they showing it in so many other cartoons which appear in the same channels? For example in the opening of the Powerpuff girls when Buttercup kicks HIM in the face and he's seen spewing blood and losing teeth in the process. Or in "Ed, Edd N Eddy" where after being beaten up by Kevin, the three Ed's walk away bleeding.

Smoking and Drinking
The most cuts made in "Dragonball Z" were not made to hide exessive violence or sexual innuendo. They were to remove cigarettes from people's mouths and to change the liquid inside the glasses from which they were drinking.

But can anybody explain why
Professor Utonium of the Powerpuff girls can get away with smoking a pipe? Or why nobody complains when Yosemite Sam drinks his bottle of rum?

Death
In Naruto there's an episode in which the past of Naruto's teacher Kakashi is revealed. Kakashi lost his closest friend Obito when the cavern they were breaking out of was demolished by enemy ninja. Obito was squashed under a huge boulder and Kakashi unsuccesfully tried to get him free. Obito then offered kakashi is Sharigen all seeing eye which was then tranfered to him by Lin the medical ninja that was with them before saying his goodbyes because he would be dying soon. This whole scene was removed from the US dub and only shows Kakashi and Lin running out from the cavern, Obito seeimingly having vanished into thin air and with no explination how Kakashi got one of Obito's Sharingan eyes. Or during the "Vegeta saga" in Dragonball Z, when Goku arrives at the battlefield where his friends have fought a valiant but futile battle against Nappa. In the US Dub he looks around and for no apparent reason becomes ever more angry at Nappa before charging at him. In the original version of this scene however, Goku arrives and the first thing he sees is the dead body of Picollo, he walks over and scans his neck finding no pulse, he then looks around and sees the corpse of Tenshinhan which makes him grunt on both shock and anger. And then he also spots the corpse of Yamucha, to which Nappa laughs that they never stood a chance against him and that there was also another one who blew himself to pieces in an effort to take Nappa out. Goku realising that that was Chaotzu becomes furious at his friends' deaths and charges at Nappa.

So given that
Why gets Porgy Pig away with Shooting and Killing Sylvester before all nine ghosts of Sylvester's nine lives begin to haunt him. And why don't they have any problem with Tom from Tom and Jerry blowing up the whole house and killing himself in the process?

Somebody explain why they take out stuff from one cartoon but show that same offending thing in another cartoon?

 

[rgraham666]

Censors are really weird about that stuff. Plus there's so much to censor that they miss some stuff.

If you want to catch Naruto, surf on over to YouTube. You can find every last episode there including some that aren't yet available here in North America. I think. I was chatting with a nephew who's a fan, and I realized I'd seen some episodes that he hadn't.

They're subtitled rather than dubbed, but I can live with that.

I've also been watching Gundam SEED Destiny over there as well. That one's very cool.

I'd PM you the links but they're all in the computer at the shop.

 

[Weird Harold]

Somebody explain why they take out stuff from one cartoon but show that same offending thing in another cartoon?

There is a qialitative difference in the depictions of guns, death, smoking, drinking, and all of the other "same offending things" between old-school theatrical cartoons [like MGM's Tom and Jerry, Warner Brothers' Looney Tunes, Walter Lanz' Woody Woodpecker (a series too violent for modern audiences and not avalailable even in bowdlerized versions)] and Anime/Manga animated series.

Note that the diference is enough that I don't consider the Japanese imports to be "cartoons."

The is also a lot of resistence to the bowdlerization of classic theatrical cartoons from boomers like me who fondly remember the cartoon mayhem from the theatrical runs of the cartoons and resent the mangling of our childhood memories; Anime/Manga doesn't have the nostalgia market pressure to preserve classics because they're "first run in the US" versions that get censored and mangled before they are ever seen by the majority of American viewers -- who generally don't miss what they never had.

There is also the consideration that Anime andManga are for the most-part imports and Customs and Immigration can impose censorship levels disguised as import regulations that home-grown cartoon-makers wouldn't stand for.

Finally, there is the economic and political clout of the Boomer fans of "Classic Animation" (meaning what we grew up watching) matched against the economic and political clout of GenX and GenY: My generation tends to see the eplicit, graphic depictions of violence and death in Anime/Manga as gratuitious violence and gore with "no redeeming social value," and our control of congress and government bureaucracies lets us censor imported cartoons to suit "our cultural values.

It's not fair, and there are a few of us old farts that can see the hypocrisy of imposing our values on another culture's art, but hen my generation has always had a healthy dose of hypocrisy in our make-up. But...

We Boomers still have the Golden Rule on our side: We have the Gold and get to make the rules.

 

[Weird Harold]

Somebody explain why they take out stuff from one cartoon but show that same offending thing in another cartoon?

There is a qualitative difference in the depictions of guns, death, smoking, drinking, and all of the other "same offending things" between old-school theatrical cartoons [like MGM's Tom and Jerry, Warner Brothers' Looney Tunes, Walter Lanz' Woody Woodpecker (a series too violent for modern audiences and not avalailable even in bowdlerized versions)] and Anime/Manga animated series.

Note that the diference is enough that I don't consider the Japanese imports to be "cartoons."

The is also a lot of resistence to the bowdlerization of classic theatrical cartoons from boomers like me who fondly remember the cartoon mayhem from the theatrical runs of the cartoons and resent the mangling of our childhood memories; Anime/Manga doesn't have the nostalgia market pressure to preserve classics because they're "first run in the US" versions that get censored and mangled before they are ever seen by the majority of American viewers -- who generally don't miss what they never had.

There is also the consideration that Anime andManga are for the most-part imports and Customs and Immigration can impose censorship levels disguised as import regulations that home-grown cartoon-makers wouldn't stand for.

Finally, there is the economic and political clout of the Boomer fans of "Classic Animation" (meaning what we grew up watching) matched against the economic and political clout of GenX and GenY: My generation tends to see the eplicit, graphic depictions of violence and death in Anime/Manga as gratuitious violence and gore with "no redeeming social value," and our control of congress and government bureaucracies lets us censor imported cartoons to suit "our cultural values.

It's not fair, and there are a few of us old farts that can see the hypocrisy of imposing our values on another culture's art, but hen my generation has always had a healthy dose of hypocrisy in our make-up. But...

We Boomers still have the Golden Rule on our side: We have the Gold and get to make the rules.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I have seen thousands of animated cartoons, including some of the old timers from the twenties and later. Betty Boop would probably nobe allowed now.

However, I don't remember Tom ever having a gun. Elmer Fudd and Yosemite Sam, all the time, but not Tom. I won't say it has never happened, because I haven' seen all the cartoons, but I have never seen tom armed with any kind of gun. Clubs and axes and flyswatters and other things, yes, but never a gun.

 

[Weird Harold]

However, I don't remember Tom ever having a gun. Elmer Fudd and Yosemite Sam, all the time, but not Tom. I won't say it has never happened, because I haven' seen all the cartoons, but I have never seen tom armed with any kind of gun. Clubs and axes and flyswatters and other things, yes, but never a gun.

I can think of at least two where Tom has gun:

When Jerry's nephews are playing Indians and creating havoc, Tom grabbed a muzzle loader and coonskin cap from over the fireplace and forted up on the veranda against them.

When the Lion escaped from the Circus and was hiding in Tom's house with Jerry's help, Tom gets what is probably supposed to be a big game hunter's elephant gun but looks like a shotgun and a pith helmet from somewhere to hunt down the escaped Lion for the reward.

I'm sure there are others, but those two are replayed fairly often on the Cartoon network's version of the Tom and Jerry Show.

I have seen thousands of animated cartoons, including some of the old timers from the twenties and later. Betty Boop would probably nobe allowed now.

Betty Boop has more of a chance for a comeback than Woody Woodpecker. Even considering that there are only something like a half dozen Betty Boop cartoons (originally made) in color and those are terribly rare.

There were a few weeks of a "New Woody Woodpecker Show" aired some years ago, but a PC, Non-violent Woody Woodpecker simply isn't funny or even likable, so I don't think more than half of the New Woody Woodpecker cartoons were ever broadcast.

Betty Boop has a cult following that would love to see the original uncut cartoons televised, but there's not really enough of them to support a regular series and I'm afraid modern recreations would suffer the same fate as the New Woody Woodpecker and New Coke.

 

[emap]

Oh my god oh my god, I know something harold doesn't, shoot me now please.

You forgot one, at least anyway. There is an epsiode of Tom and Jerry where they are at a dude ranch, Tom has a revolver and points it at Jerry often, though when the black cat comes along they fight a bit, then start shooting.

Also, neat little tidbit. Some of the old cartoons are making a comeback of sorts, Disney showed a few of the old Mickey's before showing, I forget which cartoon movie now. It was fairly recent that they did this, apparently a huge hit with all of the kids in the theatre.

Oh and ya'll forgot Bugs and Daffy have both held guns on varying occassions, not to mention other things, like a sword and axes. Mickey has gone hunting with Goofy, to all of the hilarity you would expect from that.

Mostly though, I think the difference between Tom and Jerry, Bugs and Dafy and so forth and the new stuff, is the simple fact that the old cartoons did not show releastic depictions of the aftermaths of violence. Daffy always had to go find his bill and put it back on, the faces got blackened but everybody lived through it. Doesn't happen now, now it's all about showing blood, bone and gore.

Not to say I don't find some of the anime movies to be good viewing, I like Akira, it's gory and bloody and holy crapish, but it also has a story. Unlike some of the so called horrors being made now, Black Christmas, Hostel, the last three Saw movies, so on so forth.

 

[Weird Harold]

Oh my god oh my god, I know something harold doesn't, shoot me now please.

You forgot one, at least anyway. There is an epsiode of Tom and Jerry where they are at a dude ranch, Tom has a revolver and points it at Jerry often, though when the black cat comes along they fight a bit, then start shooting.

Yep, I do remember that one, too -- now that you describe it; actually, I think that's one of the series where there are two or three versions of the same basic plot.

Also, neat little tidbit. Some of the old cartoons are making a comeback of sorts, Disney showed a few of the old Mickey's before showing, I forget which cartoon movie now. It was fairly recent that they did this, apparently a huge hit with all of the kids in the theatre.

Disney has paired most of it's new animated movies with a theatrical cartoon since Little Mermaid's first release. I didn't know they'd resurrected any of the classic Mickey Mouse Cartoons for those releases though -- most of them are new theatrical cartoons, as far as I know.

Oh and ya'll forgot Bugs and Daffy have both held guns on varying occassions, not to mention other things, like a sword and axes. Mickey has gone hunting with Goofy, to all of the hilarity you would expect from that.

Bugs and Daffy have not only held guns, they've actually shot (at) each other and at Elmer in several cartoons.

Mostly though, I think the difference between Tom and Jerry, Bugs and Dafy and so forth and the new stuff, is the simple fact that the old cartoons did not show releastic depictions of the aftermaths of violence. Daffy always had to go find his bill and put it back on, the faces got blackened but everybody lived through it. Doesn't happen now, now it's all about showing blood, bone and gore.

That's the qualitative difference I was alluding to earlier. It isn't quite as simple as "violence in classic cartoons wasn't realistic" but it's pretty close to that simple.

 

[Saiyaman]

Bugs and Daffy have not only held guns, they've actually shot (at) each other and at Elmer in several cartoons.

http://www.ezthemes.com/previews/e/elmerswanted.jpg


Anyway to also give a reply to your earlier post. It's not just in the Classic MGM cartoons. Also in cartoon series like "Powerpuff girls", Johnny Bravo, Ed, Edd N Eddy and the likes.

 

[TheeGoatPig]

The japanese cartoons aren't cut up by censors. They are cut up by the production company that is importing them. For series like Dragonball and Naruto, they are trying to make them more kid friendly then they really are. However, for series like Cowboy Bebop and.. and I can't think of other adult programming right now, they aren't cut up much at all.

The American shows, on the other hand, are butchered for any number of pissy little reasons that don't make any sense. They are just afraid that someone will be upset by something, and they try to pretend that nothing bad ever happened in the past and try to minimalize as much "damage" to their reputations as they can.

Whacky nutjobs.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Let's call them ABOLITIONISTS because thats really their agenda, to abolish everything. Booze, smokes, fatty food, whatever you can imagine. Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly, and abolitionists gotta ban everything. Its that simple.

 

[gauchecritic]

It's probably a matter of cartoon violence vs story violence.

Cartoons don't expect the viewer to identify with any of the characters and ask that disbelief be entirely suspended.

Stories on the other hand actually expect a level of sophistication equated with reading eg, comics versus books in Japan(?) very little discrimination as far as I'm aware.

Which means that authors (of realistic animation) try to input realism, suspend the viewers disbelief and make the viewing as engrossing as possible.

And let's face it, a hell of a lot of manga just isn't kiddy material.

From my very limited knowledge of Japanese animation (mainly though my eldest son) these aren't aimed at pre-pubescents and their cultural impact on their original audience is wholly lacking in their export audience.

So you're simply not comparing like with like.

someone had a thread a year or two ago about trying to sell 'Friends' to the Chinese market. The Chinese market required that almost all innuendo be removed. The editors found that there was very little footage left when they took out the sex.

Sky broadcasting is noticeably draconian before the 'British Watershed' times (9.00pm I think) and completely ruins shows like Scrubs aired before that time.

I suppose they're just 'following orders'. (I bet that's lost me the debate altogether yeah?)

 

[Weird Harold]

Anyway to also give a reply to your earlier post. It's not just in the Classic MGM cartoons. Also in cartoon series like "Powerpuff girls", Johnny Bravo, Ed, Edd N Eddy and the likes.

I know more about the bowdlerization and censoring of the Classic Theatricals than I do about "new" series like the "Cartoon! Cartoon!" line-up -- I'm not sure if those are American production companies or foreign imports; I think they're the former, which brings the First Amendment into play as a factor in how much "programming guidlines" (aka censorhip) the produiction companies will accept.

gauchecritic is probably correct that, "It's probably a matter of cartoon violence vs story violence," although it might better be expressed as Slapstick vs Dramatic violence. The Three Stooges are another classic entertainment that has been bowderlized into bland and boring PC ratings failures because their slapstick violence was deemed "a bad influence on young minds."

The japanese cartoons aren't cut up by censors. They are cut up by the production company that is importing them. For series like Dragonball and Naruto, they are trying to make them more kid friendly then they really are. However, for series like Cowboy Bebop and.. and I can't think of other adult programming right now, they aren't cut up much at all.

There's the TV rating codes importers and production companies have to consider also and the network's scheduling guidlines have a strong influence on the edits made for the American market -- it may be the production companies, but it's the censors dictating what they edit out.

The American shows, on the other hand, are butchered for any number of pissy little reasons that don't make any sense. They are just afraid that someone will be upset by something, and they try to pretend that nothing bad ever happened in the past and try to minimalize as much "damage" to their reputations as they can.

That brings up the issue of the "banned" WWII era cartoons -- Cartoon Networks' Toonheads series occasionally presents one or two of them in historical/educational context to demonstrate how they were used as wartime propaganda as well wartime escapist entertainment.

I'm of two minds about that kind of "censorship" because it's the big studios that have banned them for fairly good reasons -- they're racist, violent in a way the peactime cartoons never were, and (most importantly) implicate the big studios as government propaganda organs -- but they're also an important part of WWII history and advertising/propaganda history.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Let's call them ABOLITIONISTS because thats really their agenda, to abolish everything. Booze, smokes, fatty food, whatever you can imagine. Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly, and abolitionists gotta ban everything. Its that simple.

We should probably call them something other than "Abolitionists" because, historically, the Abs were the good guys who wantd to outlaw slavery. Maybe call them spoilsports or wet blankets or party poopers.

 

[emap]

Personally I like to call them idiots.

 

[kinkikittyn]

I watch anime in europe and so far I dont think its been cut up like that. granted it WAS all in Italian so I didn't understand it anyway.

rgraham666's suggestion of youtube is GREAT, its a good place to find a lot of anime.

Bleach is good and Wolf's Rain too.

 

[Oblimo]

Must...not...troll--can't resist!

The less seen of DragonBall Z, the better.

I love you, man, but gawd-damn, do we have different tastes in cartoons.

 

[TheeGoatPig]

That brings up the issue of the "banned" WWII era cartoons -- Cartoon Networks' Toonheads series occasionally presents one or two of them in historical/educational context to demonstrate how they were used as wartime propaganda as well wartime escapist entertainment.

I'm of two minds about that kind of "censorship" because it's the big studios that have banned them for fairly good reasons -- they're racist, violent in a way the peactime cartoons never were, and (most importantly) implicate the big studios as government propaganda organs -- but they're also an important part of WWII history and advertising/propaganda history.

But those cartoons are also hilarious. You can't take them out of context. you have to understand when they were made and why. But they are laugh out loud funny as all hell, especially when they are being rude, crude, violent, racist, sexist, whatever. That's where most comedy comes from. Laughing at the bad parts of life.

 

[cheerful_deviant]

Blood
In a series like Naruto where they ways of the Ninja play a large role, getting a punch in the face is anything but cartoonish. For example when Sasuke faces Rock Lee at the Chunin exams, he gets a foot to his chin when Rock Lee starts his "Dance of the falling leaf" attack. Making him spew blood just after recieving that blow. Or later in that episode when Gai-Sensei appears and he punches Rock Lee in the face to punish him for displaying his secret technique so openly, blood streams from Rock Lee's mouth. In the US Dub the animation cells of both scenes were altered to take away the blood.

The blood issue largle stems from Japanese regulations. There are strict laws in Japan about showing blood in certain forms of show, I believe anime is one of them, Often times when you see blood in an anime, it is actually a different version that was made just for this market or for europe. Many times you will see no blood or a stylized version of it in a show that has only one version. An example would be Noir which has lots (and lots and lots...) of people getting shot but only in a couple spots do you see even a hint of blood and it's very mild, ie: a few drops on the floor.

 

[Oblimo]

The blood issue largle stems from Japanese regulations. There are strict laws in Japan about showing blood in certain forms of show, I believe anime is one of them

Except for all those spontaneous nosebleeds.

 

[Weird Harold]

[RE: Wartime cartoons]

Some of the wartime cartoons are hilarious, but I've seen a few examples that are just unfunny no matter the context because the "hate" overrides any sense of humor. But, all of those wartime cartoons are unsuitable for inclusion in a general interst cartoon collection for entertainment purposes.

What I would really like to see included in a general release collection are the WWII health and hygiene training films. They should be required viewing in high schools and middle schools around the world. p

 

[emap]

Speaking of wartime cartoons, there was one I remember they would show every once in a while even long after.

Bugs is in an airfeild and finds himself talking to a gremlin. I believe he spots said gremlin banging on a bomb with a tiny little hammer. The gremlin is of course very courteous and talks bugs into hitting the bomb with a bigger hammer. He stops right before he hits it then chases the gremlin around before following it onto a bomber. They do all sorts of things over the bomber before it ends up doing a nose dive. Bugs is screaming the whole way down, with a pause to catch his breath of course.

They don't crash, the plane ran out of fuel before crashing so stopped in mid air. It only had a C rating. It was great, they at once made fun of the rationing and warned against relaxing at your job. I've not seen it since mid 80's sadly.

Oooo especially the one about condoms for the troops, they even showed how to put it on correctly, on a banana of course, or maybe it was a semi phallus shaped peice of wood. Anyway, they showed how to put it on correctly, everybody knows men don't read instructions so a video of proper usage is required.

Actual reason why the one time I tried to have sex with him using a condom it broke. They never talked about condoms in my sex ed class, beyond if you do have sex make him use one or go on the pill. I picked the pill, young and stupid was nice for a long while.

 

[Weird Harold]

Speaking of wartime cartoons, there was one I remember they would show every once in a while even long after.

Bugs is in an airfeild and finds himself talking to a gremlin. I believe he spots said gremlin banging on a bomb with a tiny little hammer. ...

They don't crash, the plane ran out of fuel before crashing so stopped in mid air. It only had a C rating. It was great, they at once made fun of the rationing and warned against relaxing at your job. I've not seen it since mid 80's sadly.

Bugs and the Gremlin still plays occasonally on Cartoon channel, but they're not showing many Warner Brothers cartoons right now for some reason. That's not the only wartime cartoon still in circulation that pokes fun at rationing -- there are even a few wartime Tom & Jerry, Droopy, and other MGM wartime cartoons floating around as well as the better known Warner Brothers examples. The only company that doesn't have any wartime cartoons in circulation is Disney and that's as much because Disney doesn't actually sell any cartoon and tightly controls exposure of everything they ever produced. (even Disney DVD's are actually a lease if you read the fine print.)

 

[emap]

Harold your silly, all DVD's are a lease of the movie. You agree to only use the DVD as entertainment, not make money and not play in a business environment unless you get proper authorization. Why the small mom and pop video stores don't play movies, they don't get the authorization. I think it costs money to do so.

Same thing with video games, if you ever actually read those agreement's, they explicitly say that, you do not own the game, you cannot adjust the game in any way unless given permission by the parent company, you cannot make copies of the game and sell said copies for your own profit. You also happen to agree that you will not sell the game unless you do not have a copy of the game because it then falls under making copies for profit. You are also not allowed to use the engine or otherwise make use of anything in the game to make your own game or other programs.

Basically it all boils down, this is ours not yours we will let you watch or play with it so long as you do not play with the way it works, make copies or anything else besides enjoy it in the original state because if you do you become our bitch to use as we see fit, usually costing you alot of money.

 

[Weird Harold]

Harold your silly, all DVD's are a lease of the movie. You agree to only use the DVD as entertainment, not make money and not play in a business environment unless you get proper authorization.

Close, but not quite the whole story.

I was thinking in terms of "public domain" collections like some of the Popeye, Mighty Mouse, Betty Boop, Looney Tunes, and Merry Melodies collections which are NOT leases but collections of cartoons for which the copyright has expired.

Disney has not allowed the copyright on anything to expire and has multiple copyrights and tradmarks on some things, so while youcan find public domain collections that aren't a lease, you won't find any Disney cartoons or movies that aren't Leases.

I've never actually read the entire license agreement on any DVD but rumor has it that Disney's have a slightly stricter EULA than most.