Underage incest fantasys

[dr_mabeuse]

I personally don't much care about this issue, because I don't find young girls very sexy. I prefer women who already have some knowledge of sex. I don't find girls sexy because their innocence doesn't appeal to me. Innocence is kind of hard to define, but I'd say we could come close if we define it as as essential ignorance of the link between body and soul. The innocent is unaware of the erotic potential of her body, and so her body has an untrammeled virginal purity that doesn't appeal especially to me--to me it seems juvenile and unformed--but it does appeal strongly to some men. They like to see this innocence degraded and defiled. I think the urge is basically sadistic, but I might be wrong. But the urge to see innocence defiled is certainly part of the appeal of underage sex if you ask me. There's something sadistic and exploitive about it and we all recognize it in our bones.

In any case, the desire to witness underage sex caries with it a strong whiff of sadism and degradation, of despoiling children and robbing them of their innocence in order to provide entertainment. This seems especially true since their youth provides so little psychological insight into the sexual experience from a literary point of view. The experience of a twelve year-old girl being deflowered is not going to make very deep or compelling reading, the twelve year-old mind being what it is. It's going to be very descriptive and pornographic, which means the story's main purpose is going to be the sexual titillation of the reader, a high and somewhat sleazy price to pay for the girl's trauma, fictional or not. At twelve years old, a girl simply doesn't have the maturity and insight to understand what's happening to her on any but the most superficial physical level, or so it would seem to me.

I'm not happy with arbitrary age limits on stories, but I understand what they're trying to do. We don't want to read stories involved sex with infants and you've got to draw the line somewhere. It's not the number of years that matters, it's the mental age, the mental development. You want the women at the point of maturity where they've connected their bodies to their hearts and spirits, where they understand the implication of a touch between the legs or on the breast and aren't all wide eyed and confused at it, where they know the implications of "yes" and "no" and know them damned well. Watching beginners negotiate the minefield of sex might be entertainment for some; it's cruelty to others, and only an idiot equates physical development with mental development.

How about we have stories about sex with mentally challenged adults next? She's got the body of a 26 year-old and the mind of a twelve year old. Anyone want to write it?

 

[MzDeviancy]

But the urge to see innocence defiled is certainly part of the appeal of underage sex if you ask me. There's something sadistic and exploitive about it and we all recognize it in our bones.

Pardon me, but no 'we' don't. This is the first time I've seen this issue examined with anything remotely ressembling healthy debate, so please don't ruin it by stating your opinion as if it's indisputable fact.

It's going to be very descriptive and pornographic, which means the story's main purpose is going to be the sexual titillation of the reader.

Um...duh. This is an erotica website; most stories on here fit that purpose. Many stories on here follow that same MO of 'sadistic exploitation of innocence', but I notice you don't bring up those 'victims'. Beyond the fact that I believe absence of force makes sexual contact with a child something quite different, the people in these stories are fictional characters and referring to them as victims is a little silly. To imply that these stories will spark an epidemic of real life behaviour is even sillier; how many people do you think read a Nonconsent story on here and then go out and rape someone? That kind of dissociation between fantasy and reality is caused by mental illness, not fiction.

At twelve years old, a girl simply doesn't have the maturity and insight to understand what's happening to her on any but the most superficial physical level, or so it would seem to me.

Again with implication that sexual activity is somehow traumatic for anyone who isn't mentally and emotionally mature...Sexual curiosity is a normal part of growing up, and I challenge you to find hard evidence that, in absence of force/coersion and societal pressure, sexual activity with an adult is any more harmful to a child than sex with another child. There have been and still are cultures where adult/youth relationships are accepted, so if you're right and it's simply inherently harmful, you should be able to find something a little more concrete than "We all know it's wrong".

How about we have stories about sex with mentally challenged adults next? She's got the body of a 26 year-old and the mind of a twelve year old. Anyone want to write it?

Again, FICTION. Hell yes, I'd write it because it's a freakin STORY.

As to the real life version of this issue, the only people who can't consent are people incapable of communication. For the rest, it's a matter of whether their consent is acceptable by legal and moral standards. If mentally challenged people can have sex with each other, why shouldn't they be allowed to have sex with fully functioning adults?

 

[amicus]

Oh, my, MzDeviancy just eviscerated Dr. Mabeuse with surgical precision and it is a joy to behold!

Because few others will notice and none will commend, thus, it falls upon the Amicus one to express appreciation.

And thus I do as my first post of 2008.Whoopee...happy new year, kid, all the best to you!

Amicus...

 

[Guest]

. . . . .

 

[cantdog]

Nabokov makes clear that Humbert was fooling himself, even though the story is told entirely from Humbert's self-deceptive stance.

I know a lawyer who has had to defend child abusers, and they often claim the little sluts wanted it. Pure rationalization and projection.

 

[rgraham666]

Nabokov makes clear that Humbert was fooling himself, even though the story is told entirely from Humbert's self-deceptive stance.

I know a lawyer who has had to defend child abusers, and they often claim the little sluts wanted it. Pure rationalization and projection.

Snarl!

 

[Boxlicker101]

Nabokov makes clear that Humbert was fooling himself, even though the story is told entirely from Humbert's self-deceptive stance.

I know a lawyer who has had to defend child abusers, and they often claim the little sluts wanted it. Pure rationalization and projection.

On the first sex act with Loloita, she was a more than willing participant. He just wanted to fondle her while she was in a drugged sleep, but she woke up and wanted him to go all the way. Subsequently, she was sometimes willing, and sometimes not.

I would never describe anybody as "the little slut" but sometimes the girl is the aggressor and really does "want it". In the famous case of "The Long Island Lolita", 16 year old Amy Fisher was the aggressor, and Joey Buttfucker did six months for statutory rape of her. I'm not defending him, by the way, but the lawyer you are citing is sometimes telling the truth.

Recently there have been several cases involving teachers and underage boys. I will never be able to consider those boys to be "victims" because I remember myself at that age. They are strictly the beneficiaries of the teachers' rather unusual desires.

 

[Guest]

. . . . .

 

[gauchecritic]

But - as long as the older of the two holds some sort of authority position over the younger - teacher, coach, clergy, doctor, dentist, babysitter - they are not approaching the relationship on equal footing.

I believe it's abuse.

But isn't that what all relationships are about? Who has authority or power. It is certainly and without question immoral for older people to wield authority over a pre- or just pubescent child for personal satisfaction but it happens every day in other spheres and older ages.

Personal gain in relationships and balancing those gains is what relationships between any two people is about, so is it all abuse when we make kids do their homework, brush their teeth, go to their room?

When my eldest lad was about four years old people often used to comment that he was very 'old fashioned'. We decided it was because of his unusually large vocabulary, we'd encouraged him to read (the second lad could read shop signage before the age of two) He actively pursued his reading. Did we abuse him?

Young children are actively discouraged from learning about their own sexuality, such as it is and the difference between the sexes and not to talk about things which are embarrassing to the adults they address. Is this abuse?

I think it was Cant that said whatever age his kids were he answered their questions about sex. Kids are notoriously butterfly minded and the quest loses their interest sometimes before it starts. They ask questions when they are ready for the answers. They often find that they can't assimilate the answers and so give it up as a bad job, to be returned to later.

Consider this: A child walks into the bathroom just in time to see a male parent ejaculating in the bath and the orgasm shaking their body. One of two things happens. They are shouted at or at least actively discouraged from even remembering the event or they are spoken to reasonably, with explanations and comparisons of sexual organs which the child then goes to learn more about in any way that he can (despite warnings to the contrary). Which of these is abuse?

The answer for lots of people in this scenario is the ungiven and unlikely event where the parent takes advantage of the child for sexual pleasure of any kind. Fine.

What about the situation where the child walks into a room and finds a parent giving themselves pleasure by playing the piano and then actively encourages that child to take piano lessons for hours on end in order that they can show the child off to others as a prodigy, or to join the parent's rock and roll band in order that the parent can bathe in rapturous applause?

Now let's assume that in the first scenario the parent is extremely reasonable and as soon as the child says "I don't want to do that" says fine, you've learned what you needed to learn so now we'll stop.

Will that parent allow the child to stop taking piano lessons? Or will that parent abuse that child until it follows through on what the parent wants?

The difference between the two is the sex and the reasonableness of the parent but the main difference is how the rest of society sees it.

 

[Guest]

. . . . .

 

[gauchecritic]

Actually I was trying not to come across as promoting practical sex lessons.

The main point I was trying to approach was tacked onto the end and got lost in the shuffle. I'll try again.

I imagine that everyone on the thread is of the opinion that sex 'lessons' from a parent are traumatic for a child and are therefore deemed as abuse.

(In my opinion and this may be somewhat biased, there are too many people that rely heavily on their innocence at some trial, by judges or media that their own abuses of privilege, power etc can be laid squarely at the feet of their parents for abuse of them. This defense, to me, is just admitting that they are not grown up.)

Some people (a majority I feel) assume that each and every case of parent/child sex leads to a warped person in later life. This is where I always hesitate to give my opinion outright, but I think I've laid enough groundwork here: the only time that anybody hears about child sex abuse leading to warped judgement is from those with warped judgement.
The people that were 'sexually abused' as children but go about their lives as healthily as any other person are never known. The reason they're never known is because they would be made into victims by others simply knowing.

Two cases I know about. I worked with a guy whose first sexual encounter was with his much older, drunken sister, who crawled into his bed. Until he told me, I had no idea at all that he was any different from anyone else.

The other case was of a girl who was no different from quite a few other girls with voracious sexual appetites. I can't assume that every girl I know with a large sexual appetite was abused.

Yes, both cases are morally repugnant to me. (Perhaps not the guy so much) but they were not apparently warped in any way as far as I could tell.

So my point is that they actually apparently grew from these encounters. They learned something new.

In no way do I condone authority figures coercing anyone into any sexual act. Conversely I do condemn society at large for making the youngsters into victims.

 

[Pure]

reply to mabeuse

dr mabeuse I personally don't much care about this issue, because I don't find young girls very sexy. I prefer women who already have some knowledge of sex. I don't find girls sexy because their innocence doesn't appeal to me. Innocence is kind of hard to define, but I'd say we could come close if we define it as as essential ignorance of the link between body and soul. The innocent is unaware of the erotic potential of her body, and so her body has an untrammeled virginal purity that doesn't appeal especially to me--to me it seems juvenile and unformed--but it does appeal strongly to some men.

here the dr. is discussing why a man, in real life activity, might pursue an underage girl.


They like to see this innocence degraded and defiled. I think the urge is basically sadistic, but I might be wrong. But the urge to see innocence defiled is certainly part of the appeal of underage sex if you ask me. There's something sadistic and exploitive about it and we all recognize it in our bones.

this para is more ambiguous but presumably is arguing that the real man after the real girl is "sadistic" and "exploitive". i would doubt the former, if dr. means *intent* to cause pain, and *intent* to get off on it. but let's proceed to the main issue.



In any case, the desire to witness underage sex caries with it a strong whiff of sadism and degradation, of despoiling children and robbing them of their innocence in order to provide entertainment. This seems especially true since their youth provides so little psychological insight into the sexual experience from a literary point of view. The experience of a twelve year-old girl being deflowered is not going to make very deep or compelling reading, the twelve year-old mind being what it is.

Look at the last sentence. Suddenly the dr. is talking about a reader.
The "witness" of the first sentence --witness to a real act-- is now become a reader. He alleges the "reader" wants to --or actually is-- witness the real thing: e.g. the millions of readers of Lit incest stories want to stand nearby and see real Joe Blow fuck his real mom or real daughter.

It's going to be very descriptive and pornographic, which means the story's main purpose is going to be the sexual titillation of the reader, a high and somewhat sleazy price to pay for the girl's trauma, fictional or not. At twelve years old, a girl simply doesn't have the maturity and insight to understand what's happening to her on any but the most superficial physical level, or so it would seem to me.

here the dr. is again talking about a real girl, alleging a trauma. let's suppose so. however the girl in an incest fantasy or stories does NOT have a trauma, and very few girls are traumatized as a result of LIt readers wolfing down incest stories and being incited to carry them out.


I'm not happy with arbitrary age limits on stories, but I understand what they're trying to do. We don't want to read stories involved sex with infants and you've got to draw the line somewhere. It's not the number of years that matters, it's the mental age, the mental development. You want the women at the point of maturity where they've connected their bodies to their hearts and spirits, where they understand the implication of a touch between the legs or on the breast and aren't all wide eyed and confused at it, where they know the implications of "yes" and "no" and know them damned well. Watching beginners negotiate the minefield of sex might be entertainment for some; it's cruelty to others, and only an idiot equates physical development with mental development.

this is again on the subject of a real girl who's the object of sexual attention. again alleging cruelty of the perpetrator. see above.

How about we have stories about sex with mentally challenged adults next? She's got the body of a 26 year-old and the mind of a twelve year old. Anyone want to write it?

suddenly the dr. is talking about a STORY. from the previous para, he has given reasons for thinking the REAL girl will be harmed. from that we are expected to agree that the REAL 26 year old with a mental age of ten will be harmed. YES, i suppose so.

BUT. if i sit here and have that FANTASY, no 'delayed' 26 year old is harmed. AND if i find a story (fiction, fantasy) about that, in reading it, I do not harm any actual 26 year old.

possibly the dr. is going to say, 'well pure is more likely to do something real with a 26 year old,' but generally the eveidence of porn "causing" crimes that wouldn't happen otherwise is scanty, esp. where written words are concerned.

---
to sum up, dr mabeuse views abou the morality of acts is, without justifciation, transferred to the thread topic of fantasy and stories. yet i'll bet that the dr reads and has written about many immoral acts. IOW outside the field of incest and sex crimes, i'll bet the dr. has no problems with stories of nasty criminal acts, e.g. in Macbeth.

 

[Guest]

. . . . .

 

[Stella_Omega]

On the first sex act with Loloita, she was a more than willing participant. He just wanted to fondle her while she was in a drugged sleep, but she woke up and wanted him to go all the way. Subsequently, she was sometimes willing, and sometimes not.

Humbert is a very unreliable witness, don't forget. The entire book is the self-portrait of a self-deceiving man, and that is the theme of the book. You can't take his word for anything. Who knows if she was in her right mind-- She was stoned to the gills on the pills that were supposed to keep her in a coma!

I would never describe anybody as "the little slut" but sometimes the girl is the aggressor and really does "want it". In the famous case of "The Long Island Lolita", 16 year old Amy Fisher was the aggressor, and Joey Buttfucker did six months for statutory rape of her. I'm not defending him, by the way, but the lawyer you are citing is sometimes telling the truth.

Maybe that's why he only did six months? the Feds don't allow much in the way of wiggle-room, but the judge has some discretionary powers.

Recently there have been several cases involving teachers and underage boys. I will never be able to consider those boys to be "victims" because I remember myself at that age. They are strictly the beneficiaries of the teachers' rather unusual desires.

Those cases seem to be where the teacher stays attached to the boy, I think. Fucking a young guy is one thing, but forming a relationship with him-- or with a girl-- might be considered an interference in his maturation process.

 

[emap]

Honestly the problem with teachers having sex with their high school or younger students is the fact they will form a relationship, if the teacher wants to or not. Think back to your high school days, how many went and did sex with a new person every weekend?

In high school and before, sex only happens with a boyfriend/girlfriend, or family, since we are talking about incest best to include that one. So if a teacher entices a student into having sex with them, or vice versa the student after that is dating the teacher, if the teacher pushes the student away from dating, they will out the teacher as having had sex with them, and if the teacher agrees to the dating they will be outed as having had sex with a student, by a jealous student.

Not always of course, if it happens to be a senior student about to graduate anyway most don't care, and has happened.

I don't really think that having some sort of power over a lover is a controlling factor in them being a lover. I personally do not work or make money, he makes all the money and I do things for him, I am not his lover because he makes the money, I may love him more because he makes all the money, though that is probably because I was tired of being a waitress.

It is also not unheard of that a student seduces a teacher, the teacher has the 'power' between them and the student comes on to her. Not all daughters are forced into sex with her dad, and of course sons generally are the one to seduce mom. Parents have total control over what their kids do, legally of course. I am sure pshrinks would be talking about how these are cases of young people wresting control from a person in power over them so they have power. I think generally that is a load of well you know what, they are attracted to their mom dad or teacher and want to get to know them biblically.

Of course the above are all kids over 13, well I suppose 10 anymore, they are going through puberty and the hormones are taking a part in their decision process. Before they are sexually aware, of course that is simple abuse, no way a child who is not at least starting puberty is going to agree to sex. Before the hormones start that is ICKY stuff, most kids that age don't want to touch a member of the opposite sex because of cooties and whatnot.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

dr mabeuse
---
to sum up, dr mabeuse views abou the morality of acts is, without justifciation, transferred to the thread topic of fantasy and stories. yet i'll bet that the dr reads and has written about many immoral acts. IOW outside the field of incest and sex crimes, i'll bet the dr. has no problems with stories of nasty criminal acts, e.g. in Macbeth.

Well, just to clarify, I take no position on the surrogate reality theory that says that reading porn leads to imitation of the acts in real life. No, let me change that. I do take a position on that, and that's that I think it's mostly bullshit. I don't think reading about a sexual act encourages the reader to carry it out in real life, although I do think that the level of background acceptance has a lot to do with shaping our attitudes towards what's acceptable behavior. But that's not what I was arguing about at all. I'm not saying that reading about it is going to encourage people to do it. Not at all.

I'm writing as an author who (probably foolishly) looks to erotica to say something about the human condition, and I'm wondering just what kind of things we can expect from a fictional account of a pre-teen's sexual experience. For me, I just don't see much of a story there, but that probably says more about my own limitations as a writer than about the subject itself. In any case, I'm not naive enough to believe that everyone reads porn looking for great literary merit. Most of us just want to get our nuts off. If that's the case, then why not just admit, "reading about 12 year-old girls getting fucked gets me off"? and then explore why that might be true. What is it about a 12 year-old that's different than a 18 year-old?

If we are reading for the literary worth though, then just what might we expect? A coming-of-age tale of some type most probably, the kind of thing Lit calls "First-Time" or something. If it's that aspect of underage sex that appeals to us, the girl's mental attitude we're interested in, than why should her chronological age matter? Why should we care whether she's 12 or 22?

I suspect it's because we want to witness her loss of innocence. It's the same reason men have been obsessed with virgins since sex was invented, and I think that urge to see her fall is essentially (although subtly) sadistic.

I admit I came into this discussion prejudiced, having been opportuned many times to do an underage sex story by people whose attitude left no doubt in my mind that they were after the more predatory and rapacious aspects of the sex, experiences which left a bad taste in my mouth. (The suggested plots usually involved physical abuse prior to the sex. Daddy beats daughter for coming home late from a date, ends up fucking her, that kind of thing.) Having two daughters of my own at a very susceptible age, I'm especially sensitive to stories involving feelings of father-daughter trust and intimacy. The subject makes me personally uncomfortable, and I admit it.

Other than that, I've always stayed away from first-time stories for another reason, for the same reason that I don't like dealing with virgins. The emotions involved with loss of virginity can sometimes overwhelm whatever salaciousness the story might have. The import of being deflowered seems to dwarf the sexuality so that the story is hardly sexual at all.

But again, this is me speaking as a writer. And a father, admittedly.

The object of the game, as someone once said, is to fuck everyone else's daughters while making sure that no one fucks yours.

 

[SlickTony]

the best thing to do would be get a lock for the damn door to prevent a child from walking in a private moment.

It helps if there's a door to put a lock on in the first place. We have one of these loft bedrooms where, as soon as you've come upstairs, bang! you're in the master bedroom. Earlier today my husband and I were up there...we thought we were safe because our son had been holed up in his room talking with his friends for hours. And then he decided to come upstairs because he'd missed us downstairs. We disengaged and threw the covers over us. I don't know how much he saw, but hastily went downstairs and back into his room, not to re-emerge until he was sure we were downstairs.

Course he'll be 19 next month, and he'll just have to deal, but he really is more innocent than the thinks he is, even though he's just about the same age as the protagonist in my Winter Holidays first-time story.

 

[ms.read]

I have a question for y'all out there.

A young woman at the age of 17 meets a 30 y.o. attractive male stranger. it's 6mo till her 18th bday. they decide that they want to date 3 months later.(still before her bday) They have sex. both know the consequences and it was a consensual descision. What then? the young woman was still living at her parent's house and the parent knew of the relationship from the beginning. What if the parent decided to press charges against the man for statutory rape. HELLO! it was consensual.... what would have the judge said?

Would it be allowed to be written in detail and submitted to lit?

 

[cloudy]

Would it be allowed to be written in detail and submitted to lit?

No. She's still under 18 - period.

 

[Stella_Omega]

No. She's still under 18 - period.

You have to understand, MsRead, this actually doesn't have to be about federal laws-- lit is owned by real people, who have made their rules. They can enforce those rules as as see fit-- and Laurel and Manu do enforce those rules...

Right?

 

[ms.read]

just wondering is all.

personally, i find underage stuff distasteful. my problem is I can see both sides of the coin.
i support laurel and manu's decision to uphold the federal law. and yes they do enforce it quite well.

 

[Boxlicker101]

just wondering is all.

personally, i find underage stuff distasteful. my problem is I can see both sides of the coin.
i support laurel and manu's decision to uphold the federal law. and yes they do enforce it quite well.

I also support Laurel and Manu, but I'm not really sure this is a matter of federal law. If pictures were involved, it would be, but written descriptions might not be illegal. At the same time, it is entirely possible that such depictions might become illegal some day. If certain Pecksniffs had their way, they would be. In fact, if those people had their way, anything racier than the Bobsey Twins would be outlawed.

 

[Stella_Omega]

It doesn't have to be about federal law anyways... It can be their own personal prejudice.

If it were my site, I would enforce my own set of stringent rules, like the difference between BDSM and non-con... My own rules for underaged sex would be a bit different than theirs are-- but I would still enforce them.

 

[Boxlicker101]

It isn't really a matter of what's legal anyhow. Incest is generally illegal, but it is common here. Certain coercive sex would be illegal some places, but it's okay here, although violent rape would not be. Bestiality is also banned here, although it might not be illegal everywhere.

Those are not complaints, mind you, just observations. If I want to write stories that are forbidden here, I can, and post them elsewhere.

 

[WRJames]

I don't think it is innocence that is fascinating -- so much as sexsual awakening, which is a slightly different thing. In the first novel of my Eden Series, i was exploring how the first humans on a "Seeded" planet would react as they reached that point. Raised from conception by robots, with no other human contact, what would happen to them as they made the transition from childhood to adolescence?

The "coming of age" story is a very popular theme, and it is hard to believe, these days, that the age is really eighteen.