Aryan Hearths in Maine

[cantdog]

When I was a fireman, we went to a call on a street right down next to the river. The house was one whose back yard ended in the bank down to the railway bed, followed by a few bushes and rocks and then the Penobscot.

The neighbors had complained about these people; they themselves didn't call us, because there was no emergency at all.

There was an open flame, though. They had one of those brazier-style charcoal grills, probably a castoff. It had no lid and one leg was held up by a cinder block. They had been burning tree branches and scrap wood in it. They were sitting on folding chairs, an Adirondack chair, a picnic table, all arranged more or less in a semicircle around the fire. They had beers and cigarettes and were talking and laughing. Besides the fire, the only light was from the kitchen window, streaming out over the deck to be lost in the night. They were in their late twenties.

Well, technically, there's a ban on open burning in the city. The public works send trucks around and a chipper to pick up branches, brush, and fall leaves, since they won't let anyone burn any more. This was a fire, though, up off the ground about two and a half feet, contained. It wasn't going anywhere unless somebody kicked it over. The ban does not apply to charcoal grills, of course, but these guys were not gonna ever use charcoal, they were burning brush and scraps of lumber and they had done it several nights in a row.

It looked like a cheery way to spend an evening. Pity the folks had needlenosing busybodies for neighbors, was my thought, but I expected the bad guys would win, because of the ban, and because there had been complaints. Christ, you couldn't see the flames from the other side of the street. Just two neighbors, but they had a complainer.

My lieutenant took the situation in, and said, "Look there's a ban on just burning with open flame, so it's a very good thing that you people are engaged in food preparation and not just burning...right?"

One of them was a bright man, and piped up, "Excuse me!" He leapt up and whistled by everyone into the kitchen. Out he came a few seconds later with one of those grocery store styrofoam trays they use-- "Yes," he said, "we have this chicken!" He turned to his hostess. "Right, Marnie?"

Marnie now had gotten the drift. "Oh yes, food preparation all the way."

"Well then, that's all in order. But no open burning if you aren't engaged in food prep, okay?"

And they all went along with him on that. So we left them alone and went back to the station. I liked that lieutenant. He retired as an assistant chief; good man.


Well, since then I've seen these backyard fireside scenes (all food prep, I'm sure) quite a few times. Are they doing that where you come from?

 

[Guest]

We're more in the city here, so our experiences are only with cooking grills.

But in Michigan this is indeed the case. You can get permission to burn, and often my family does, especially when there is a great deal of tree damage from storms and the pile of limbs is higher than the house.

But there are always bonfires on the beach. Always. And there is always food. The police have never interfered and I never really thought about it before but I suppose it's illegal to have a bonfire just for the hell of it.

Not that my family would ever pay attention to such a ban.



(I like your lieutenant, though.)

 

[cantdog]

We're more in the city here, so our experiences are only with cooking grills.

But in Michigan this is indeed the case. You can get permission to burn, and often my family does, especially when there is a great deal of tree damage from storms and the pile of limbs is higher than the house.

But there are always bonfires on the beach. Always. And there is always food. The police have never interfered and I never really thought about it before but I suppose it's illegal to have a bonfire just for the hell of it.

Not that my family would ever pay attention to such a ban.



(I like your lieutenant, though.)

This was a cooking grill. But they sell, now that I look it up, deck firepits for just this purpose. Some are 'way fancy, with a marble finish and a mesh dome cover over the iron burning area.

Here, it's kinda low rent. Just burning stuff in a charcoal grill thing, no grill rack, no lid. Not common, but there's usually someone on a summer night, doing it.

Michigan, Mass, and Maine. Maybe it's a northern tier thing.

 

[glynndah]

I live out in the country. People are always burning stuff around here. Most of the time it's just brush and wood, but occasionally we can see clouds of black noxious smoke. My husband has called the authorities to report some of these fires.

Oh, and we currently have a burn barrel behind the garage (used for burning paper and cardboard boxes mostly) and there's a huge pile of brush in the front yard waiting a proper bonfire situation.

 

[cantdog]

Still, not exactly a social event. We have a bonfire for solstices and equinoxes at a friend's house in the country. He needs a burn permit and they require a charged hose nearby and a day when it hasn't been tinder dry for a week or anything like that. Someone has to be there to tend it.

A bonfire or a beach campfire are social things, unlike just disposal of brush.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

This was a cooking grill. But they sell, now that I look it up, deck firepits for just this purpose. Some are 'way fancy, with a marble finish and a mesh dome cover over the iron burning area.

Here, it's kinda low rent. Just burning stuff in a charcoal grill thing, no grill rack, no lid. Not common, but there's usually someone on a summer night, doing it.

Michigan, Mass, and Maine. Maybe it's a northern tier thing.

Yeah. They sell outdoor firepits all over Chicago now even though I think they're technically illegal. People will never lose their fascination with fire, not as long as they're people.

 

[Oblimo]

Would be interesting to challenge the ban on First Amendment grounds (if food preparation is an exception, there really is no reasonable excuse why religious observation isn't also an exception), but that's the sort of thing you'd want to plan in advance with the local pagan community.

 

[oggbashan]

There are burns and bangs

Across the estuary from me a privatised branch of the Ministry of Defence disposes of out-of-date ammunition.

Some they explode and the bangs rattle our windows.

Some they burn. If the wind is in the wrong direction the smell reminds me of a battlezone and the dirty brown smoke can stain washing on the line.

They are twenty miles away as the seagull flies.

I don't think they are cooking.

Og

 

[TxRad]

Across the estuary from me a privatised branch of the Ministry of Defence disposes of out-of-date ammunition.

Some they explode and the bangs rattle our windows.

Some they burn. If the wind is in the wrong direction the smell reminds me of a battlezone and the dirty brown smoke can stain washing on the line.

They are twenty miles away as the seagull flies.

I don't think they are cooking.

Og

Ah yes, the smell of cordite in the morning.

We have burn bans here if the weather is to dry. Even with that if your fire pit has a spark screen it's not illegal. Of course if you catch the woods on fire they will fine you whether you have hot dogs or not.

 

[cantdog]

Oblimo, they will ban a cookfire as well, if it isn't sensibly contained. You need an enclosure or something. Be reasonable. Branches hanging down over it would probably be a no-no, as well, if anyone noticed. People have to be able to protect themselves from idiots.

It's the state which gets the fine money when some ass sets the neighborhood ablaze. The guy with the scorched siding doesn't see any of that.

TxRad makes a good point. Who needs a wildfire? You can put off burning brush until there's been a rain, or even until there is snow on the ground. You can cook inside until conditions ease, too.

If a bonfire is a necessary observance, religiously, then why hasn't your pagan outfit set up a safe fire ring, with a bare spot around it so it doesn't light the grass or underbrush, and some sort of firefighting equipment to hand? Tying fire-bundles to a wheel and rolling it down a hill might be a hazard if there's been a drought.

I don't believe a religious excuse cuts much mustard. If it's a religious thing to slice off the clit of all pubescent girls or sacrifice a virgin from another tribe, there are cogent reasons to oppose the religious observances.

 

[Oblimo]

Oblimo, they will ban a cookfire as well, if it isn't sensibly contained. You need an enclosure or something. Be reasonable.

That's my point.

I don't believe a religious excuse cuts much mustard.

It does if the very same fire is allowed for a non-religious reason, like cooking.

If it's a religious thing to slice off the clit of all pubescent girls or sacrifice a virgin from another tribe, there are cogent reasons to oppose the religious observances.

Now there's a slippery slope. Allowing a pagan to not cook on a legal cooking fire is a bit different from genital mutilation.

 

[cantdog]

I agree with you that it would be damned interesting. I don't imagine it would make good law, because too many judges are ideologues. I bet the ACLU would take it on. But not the cookfire thing, that muddies the issue. You want a decision that religious fires are fine so long as they would be mistaken for a cookfire? Or would you rather have a clear cut right to have a bonfire if it's Beltane?

 

[Stella_Omega]

That's my point.


It does if the very same fire is allowed for a non-religious reason, like cooking.



Now there's a slippery slope. Allowing a pagan to not cook on a legal cooking fire is a bit different from genital mutilation.

Uhh. yeah. I thank you, Oblimo, for the voice of reason.

AAARGH! Why can't we ever simply discuss an issue without taking it to the apocalyptic extreme?

"If gays are allowed to marry, what's stopping someone from marrying their sister?" Those kinds of arguments are just ridiculous.


Back to the subject, though-- In my area, the fire danger is almost year round. Right now it's probably negligible, we've had rain; but I can't even think about an open fire without a reflexive shudder.

 

[oggbashan]

I agree with you that it would be damned interesting. I don't imagine it would make good law, because too many judges are ideologues. I bet the ACLU would take it on. But not the cookfire thing, that muddies the issue. You want a decision that religious fires are fine so long as they would be mistaken for a cookfire? Or would you rather have a clear cut right to have a bonfire if it's Beltane?

If we cook human sacrifices at Beltane is that legal?

Og

 

[Oblimo]

But not the cookfire thing, that muddies the issue. You want a decision that religious fires are fine so long as they would be mistaken for a cookfire? Or would you rather have a clear cut right to have a bonfire if it's Beltane?

I mention the cook-fire only because of the test used by courts to determine the constitutionality of a law that infringes on the free exercise of religion. That test is (almost always) a rational-basis test. The rational-basis test allows for a high level of deference to the government; so long as the government has 1) any legitimate objective and the regulation is 2) reasonably related to that objective, it will stand.

The fire regulation as presented passes #1 -- public safety from fire is a "duh" legit objective. #2 is where the potential for successful challenge lies. The regulation is not reasonably tailored -- there is no reason why a secular purpose such as cooking can legitimize a particular fire while a non-secular reason cannot legitimize the same exact fire. That would require the law to be redrafted to allow certain fires for religious observances.

 

[oggbashan]

We have bonfires for November 5th - Guy Fawkes.

We light flaming beacons for national celebrations such as 400 years after the destruction of the Spanish Armada and to mark the Millennium. Our nearby beacon was lit in the presence of our local politicians and police.

Burning garden rubbish is not illegal but can be a treated as civil nuisance if smoke affects a neighbour's washing or visibility on a major road.

Running through the streets carrying blazing tar-barrels is considered slightly unsafe but is not yet banned.

Og

 

[Oblimo]

If we cook human sacrifices at Beltane is that legal?

Og

Only if you stuff them into wicker effigies no higher than 10 meters that have been approved by the local Druid or Bard of at least 7th level with a CHA of 15 or higher.

 

[Oblimo]

We have bonfires for November 5th - Guy Fawkes.

You've got Christmas Crackers and Figgie Pudding, too. Shows what you know.

 

[oggbashan]

Only if you stuff them into wicker effigies no higher than 10 meters that have been approved by the local Druid or Bard of at least 7th level with a CHA of 15 or higher.

But we would probably have to apply for planning permission for the effigy and obtain an events licence under the Licensing Act 2003 if there is music, dancing, alcohol or if it is classed as "public entertainment". If the dancing was Morris Dancing then that doesn't need a license because Morris Dancing is NOT considered to be entertaining.

Og

 

[oggbashan]

You've got Christmas Crackers and Figgie Pudding, too. Shows what you know.

We only have them because the Puritans left England for the New World. They wanted to ban Christmas (and Figgie Pudding).

Og

 

[Oblimo]

If the dancing was Morris Dancing then that doesn't need a license because Morris Dancing is NOT considered to be entertaining.

BWAHAHAHAHA. You win the thread.

 

[cantdog]

I mention the cook-fire only because of the test used by courts to determine the constitutionality of a law that infringes on the free exercise of religion. That test is (almost always) a rational-basis test. The rational-basis test allows for a high level of deference to the government; so long as the government has 1) any legitimate objective and the regulation is 2) reasonably related to that objective, it will stand.

The fire regulation as presented passes #1 -- public safety from fire is a "duh" legit objective. #2 is where the potential for successful challenge lies. The regulation is not reasonably tailored -- there is no reason why a secular purpose such as cooking can legitimize a particular fire while a non-secular reason cannot legitimize the same exact fire. That would require the law to be redrafted to allow certain fires for religious observances.

Ah, there we are. The law is an ass, says the Bard. But I'm glad you grok enough of it to realize you don't just go in guns blazing. You are correct, I think, and with a good test case and a well spoken constitutional lawyer, this could be done, even in this climate.

BUT

The question is, do people sit about the yard with fires and friends where you live?

 

[Oblimo]

We only have them because the Puritans left England for the New World.

Well, we won't go until we get some, so bring some out here!

 

[Oblimo]

The question is, do people sit about the yard with fires and friends where you live?

I wouldn't have standing to bring the case even if yes; I'm not a pagan.

Although now I wonder if I should get my hibachi sanctified. I mean, everything I try to cook on it becomes a burnt offering anyway.

 

[Weird Harold]

If we cook human sacrifices at Beltane is that legal?

Og

Only if they're simulated human sacrifics -- "short" pig instead of long pig. You run into those pesky homicide laws if it's a real human sacrifice; whether you cook it or not.