Thoughts on alternating narrators in a single story?

[Britva415]

seeing the number of people who struggle with the notion of alternating points of view (reading stories written that way, let alone writing them) makes me wonder what these people are reading in the mainstream

You’d have to point to specific posts. Without that, it seems to me that you’re hyperbolizing by pointing to (what I take to mean) regular-old 3p-omniscient narration which obviously includes POV changes, while what (at least some) people are objecting to are different things which are not that: Either not 3p, or not omniscient, or something else that’s different from standard 3p objective narration. Nobody’s really struggling with that - unless I’m missing the receipts.

Beyond that, even with the other forms, I feel like what I’ve seen isn’t “struggling with the notion,” but more just saying whether they like it or not. Or whether they dislike it enough to nope out of some of the mainstream stuff which does it.

 

[Britva415]

That's an interesting hypothesis. I wonder if we have any evidence for it.

My hunch would be that audiobooks are actually very conducive to having multiple narrators, even switching between on the fly. If every character has a unique voice — like, actual physical voice, not literary voice — then the listener can juggle multiple perspectives much easier than a reader would in case of a written book.

The barrier would be having to pay multiple voice actors, but by the same notion you can also pay each one less, since they are reading less, so...

In my opinion, any book can be read out loud by one reader with one voice, regardless of how many POVs and which grammatical voices are employed, as long as the writing is of sufficient quality that a black-and-white-print reader can make sense of it.

If an audio reader can’t make it clear to a listener, the problem is with the writing, period. And that is not to say “the author wrote it with the wrong POVs.” It’s to say “the author wrote the POVs wrong.”

This is 100% why I object to typographical “solutions” and other non-lexical gimmicks for indicating POVs and narrator identities. Writing should remain accessible in other media besides some specific printed edition. Digital format changes and screenreader technology for the visually impaired should not fail to render the meaning, but that’s the inevitable result of taking shortcuts with writing quality, and actively choosing not to (or simply inadvertently failing to) make the words do the work.

 

[YmaOHyd]

I agree, but there's a market for audiobooks presented with multiple voice actors. Fourth Wing, for example, is available in classic audiobook format and in a Dramatized version that edits the text and adds sound effects and separate voice actors for the MMC and FMC; it's more like a radio play than a classic audiobook. Guarantee this is going to be an AI usecase in the coming years, if it's not already.

 

[PennameWombat]

That's an interesting hypothesis. I wonder if we have any evidence for it.

My hunch would be that audiobooks are actually very conducive to having multiple narrators, even switching between on the fly. If every character has a unique voice — like, actual physical voice, not literary voice — then the listener can juggle multiple perspectives much easier than a reader would in case of a written book.

The barrier would be having to pay multiple voice actors, but by the same notion you can also pay each one less, since they are reading less, so...

Mystery/Thriller and SF are not "narrow niches", they are some of the most popular categories. IIRC, Crime (i.e. mystery) is the biggest seller in the UK.

I am not saying that you are wrong about multiple narrators being the most common, simply that it was absent in all of my recent reading/listening.

The idea that multi-narrator stories are not available in audio format does not hold up to scrutiny; pretty much any successful book is available in all three formats.

The bulk of my leisure reading that isn't on this site is via audio books, both non-fiction and fiction. The former has always been single narrator, but the latter not.

I'll add that I do not like the 'graphic audio', 'full cast', or other 'adapted' audio formats (think radio play.) But I have quite enjoyed fiction with two and in one case three narrators.

As an example of two, Julia Whelan and R. C. Bray did the first three books in Dean M. Cole's "Dimension Space." They were split between an FMC and MMC, so the narrators did whichever chapter was from the FMC or MMC's POV. Once they met up (a bit past halfway), Bray did the MMC's dialogue and stretches of exposition, Whelan did the FMC's dialogue. It worked, to the point that when the fourth book came out and Whelan wasn't involved, it was a drop off in enjoyment. Although, it seemed the author was also getting a bit high on his own supply.

For three, Haruki Murakami's "IQ84" also used the FMC + MMC split for its first two sections (it's a loooong book) again split by each character's POV. The third section introduced an additional MMC POV, and that was handled by a different male narrator.

However, as to multiple narrators being "most common," no. I don't see nor consider all that many, these examples were either based on me liking the author (Murakami) or the narrators as individuals (Whelan, Bray), which led me to try out the books. IMHO, the book needs to be structured with alternating POVs to make multiple narrators useful, otherwise it edges into adaptation or full cast territory (yuck, as I said.)

 

[SkyBubble]

Novels which have space to develop multiple plotlines. I don't read many mainstream short stories, but offhand I can't think of one that had multiple narrators.

Yes, I think it would generally work better in a longer work. You simply have more space to pull it off.

 

[Writer61]

You simply have more space to pull it off.

Uncramped erotica!

 

[ElectricBlue]

Beyond that, even with the other forms, I feel like what I’ve seen isn’t “struggling with the notion,” but more just saying whether they like it or not. Or whether they dislike it enough to nope out of some of the mainstream stuff which does it.

The thing that's struck me about the whole thread is the number of people who have said they've done it on occasion, as if it's a novelty or an unusual thing to do, a rarity.

Whereas in what I read, and have read over decades, is that multi pov narration is common place, more the rule than the exception. That's why I'm puzzled, the number of folk who find the notion a novelty. Odd.

 

[PennameWombat]

The thing that's struck me about the whole thread is the number of people who have said they've done it on occasion, as if it's a novelty or an unusual thing to do, a rarity.

Whereas in what I read, and have read over decades, is that multi pov narration is common place, more the rule than the exception. That's why I'm puzzled, the number of folk who find the notion a novelty. Odd.

Yeah, that's struck me as odd as well. Whenever I start a new story, whether it's meant for Lit or for elsewhere, my default is to consider third person limited with rotating or alternating POVs. I'll switch to third with a single POV, or to first with a single POV, if I decide that character needs to be the focus for whatever reason, and that I don't want other opinions nor events they're not involved with depicted.

As I posted in this thread, a significant number of my stories on Lit use this. I encounter it all the time in my off-Lit fiction reading, to the point that it's nothing special or unusual, unless the author happens to be spectacularly bad at it, or they head-hop.

 

[PennameWombat]

Novels which have space to develop multiple plotlines. I don't read many mainstream short stories, but offhand I can't think of one that had multiple narrators.

If we define "short stories" to be under 10,000 words, then yes, I agree with this. Only a handful of my stories here on Lit are that short, as a rule I tend toward 20,000 all the way to novel length (over 70K). So I use third person alternating POV regularly in those. But the few "short" stories here are indeed all single POV, either third or first.

 

[Britva415]

There’s also 3p where the POV isn’t changing, but different people and locations are coming in and out of it. Like, the POV just moves instead of jumping. And this can be done either closely or distantly.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I wonder what people will make of this story, where the point of view is constantly shifting around three characters, with no designated scene shifts, and not a single comment saying, "Oh my god, how awful!"

You're My Last Flight

 

[IWroteThis]

The thing that's struck me about the whole thread is the number of people who have said they've done it on occasion, as if it's a novelty or an unusual thing to do, a rarity.

Whereas in what I read, and have read over decades, is that multi pov narration is common place, more the rule than the exception. That's why I'm puzzled, the number of folk who find the notion a novelty. Odd.

Not to question you, but let me ask…

Are you talking about stories told from the PoV of a non-character narrator, allowing them to follow different characters at different times, or do you really mean jumping into different character's head and telling the story from their internal perspective?

I ask because I can think of a lot of examples of the former, but not the latter.

 

[PennameWombat]

Not to question you, but let me ask…

Are you talking about stories told from the PoV of a non-character narrator, allowing them to follow different characters at different times, or do you really mean jumping into different character's head and telling the story from their internal perspective?

I ask because I can think of a lot of examples of the former, but not the latter.

Not the OP, but I'm curious how come you think there aren't examples of the latter. Or do you mean here on Lit? The first is an omniscient narrator, and has long been used, although it's less common than it was.

The latter is very common, at least in the mainstream. As to Lit, I have multiple such here, The Way to a Man's Heart and Predators are two examples and overall about half of my stories here.

In the mainstream, I cited a couple upthread, "Dimension Space" by Dean M. Cole, and "1Q84" by Haruki Murakami. But two other massive sellers, "The Expanse" novels by James S. A. Corey and GRRM's "ASOIAF", aka "Game of Thrones." All use rotating POVs where each chapter is inside of the POV character's head. The first two use two and three, respectively, the latter you can look up on Wikipedia for lists of POVs.

I, at least, can tell when an author does this well because the different POVs truly differ. I detested a few of the POV characters in "The Expanse" novels because I just simply didn't like them as "people." Which may have been the goal for the authors.

 

[Britva415]

do you really mean jumping into different character's head and telling the story from their internal perspective?

I ask because I can think of a lot of examples of the former, but not the latter.

1p from different characters’ individual 1p perspectives?

I see that a lot on Lit.

A timely example is the Tiki Totem Hotel series presently in progress by @publius

It also has brief interludes of a 3p narration for another character’s POV as well, but is mostly alternating sections of 1p from two different characters’ POVs.

 

[IWroteThis]

Not the OP, but I'm curious how come you think there aren't examples of the latter.

Well, I never said they didn't exist. I said that I couldn't think of any.

Looking back, I did apparently delete something I didn't mean to, as I originally included something along the lines of, "I don't know if we just read that different of stories."

The latter is very common, at least in the mainstream. As to Lit, I have multiple such here, The Way to a Man's Heart and Predators are two examples and overall about half of my stories here.

In the mainstream, I cited a couple upthread, "Dimension Space" by Dean M. Cole, and "1Q84" by Haruki Murakami. But two other massive sellers, "The Expanse" novels by James S. A. Corey and GRRM's "ASOIAF", aka "Game of Thrones." All use rotating POVs where each chapter is inside of the POV character's head. The first two use two and three, respectively, the latter you can look up on Wikipedia for lists of POVs.

I, at least, can tell when an author does this well because the different POVs truly differ. I detested a few of the POV characters in "The Expanse" novels because I just simply didn't like them as "people." Which may have been the goal for the authors.

Well, I haven't read any of those, so that's probably why I didn't think of them.

 

[NaughteeDragon]

I have one story that did this, and it's my longest by far (~35k words). I Got You is a prank war between siblings that puts you in the perspective of the pranked sibling in each case. That way there's some surprise. It got a 4.8, and the only negative comments were character specific, not about the narrative device.

As a cherry on top, the epilogue was from the perspective of a third character. But each section was marked with the name of the narrator for clarity.

That was a fun story if it's the one I'm thinking of. It's been a while since I read it.

 

[TheWorldBuilder]

I've just grabbed a story from my library of SF classics: third person, past omnipotent and 7 viewpoint characters on the random page I opened.

 

[Rob_Royale]

I did it in my Aunt Tina series. Each chapter was from an alternating pov between aunt and nephew. It worked out rather well and it had the level of intimacy I wanted.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Not to question you, but let me ask…

Are you talking about stories told from the PoV of a non-character narrator, allowing them to follow different characters at different times, or do you really mean jumping into different character's head and telling the story from their internal perspective?

I ask because I can think of a lot of examples of the former, but not the latter.

I write third limited a lot, and read third person narrative even more; both of which can tell a story from different points of view. I find limited third especially powerful, because you can get in as close and intimate as first person, but there's so much more flexibility. You're not constrained by the singular first person.

The story I've linked up above is limited third, and follows the thoughts of three characters. No-one has yet commented, "Gee, that's hard to read."

 

[stickygirl]

I still get discombobbed but I went off and did some hunting and found this linky Maryadkinswriter

She offers this paragraph as an example of legitimate wandering 3rd person. I know the sharp eyed will be able to decipher without needing to check Mary's site.

She couldn't believe her luck—here he was, walking into the room and headed her direction. Around her, people minded their own business, seemingly unaware of his presence. One by one, they began to spot him, looking up and nudging each other. Everyone knew who Martin Peas was, and everyone's pulse quickened as they realized they were in the same room as him.

I'm sure there are other websites, but this was the first readable one ( for me ). It kinda comes back to my earlier point that if you can sense the balance and rhythm in your writing innately, then you may not need to know the theory. I can drive a car perfectly well without knowing how an engine works. ( But yes, if it breaks down it's good to know where to hit it )

In a piece I'm currently writing, there is another device that sits the reader alongside an MC and I'd be grateful for comments. Two MCs keep diaries: one is a ship's logbook, so mostly bullet points, and the other an alcoholics journal, where there is more opportunity to include feelings and thoughts.

 

[StillStunned]

I write third limited a lot, and read third person narrative even more; both of which can tell a story from different points of view. I find limited third especially powerful, because you can get in as close and intimate as first person, but there's so much more flexibility. You're not constrained by the singular first person.

The story I've linked up above is limited third, and follows the thoughts of three characters. No-one has yet commented, "Gee, that's hard to read."

It works better for some stories/genres than others, I think. For voyeur stories, I'll always write 1P, for instance, but if I were to use 3P it would only be from the one perspective because otherwise you'd lose the magic.

But Not A Soul is sci-fi horror, with individual members of the team encountering the Big Bad separately like in a slasher movie. You need to tell those scenes from their own perspective, and that means multiple POV characters.

The Dome takes place on a large scale, so multiple POV characters can tell their stories that together build the picture of the whole world.

The Rivals shifts between the perspectives of the two main characters, because they have different views on what's happening. And two POV characters gives me twice the amount of story to tell.

Honestly, I don't see the problem with shifting perspectives. As long as you avoid head-hopping, and each POV character has something to tell.

 

[Britva415]

I still get discombobbed but I went off and did some hunting and found this linky Maryadkinswriter

She offers this paragraph as an example of legitimate wandering 3rd person. I know the sharp eyed will be able to decipher without needing to check Mary's site.

She couldn't believe her luck—here he was, walking into the room and headed her direction. Around her, people minded their own business, seemingly unaware of his presence. One by one, they began to spot him, looking up and nudging each other. Everyone knew who Martin Peas was, and everyone's pulse quickened as they realized they were in the same room as him.

I'm sure there are other websites, but this was the first readable one ( for me ). It kinda comes back to my earlier point that if you can sense the balance and rhythm in your writing innately, then you may not need to know the theory. I can drive a car perfectly well without knowing how an engine works. ( But yes, if it breaks down it's good to know where to hit it )

In a piece I'm currently writing, there is another device that sits the reader alongside an MC and I'd be grateful for comments. Two MCs keep diaries: one is a ship's logbook, so mostly bullet points, and the other an alcoholics journal, where there is more opportunity to include feelings and thoughts.

I like how she puts it, with regard to wandering between close and omniscient (as if “close” somehow ruled out omniscience):

“The Good News: With third person, you don’t actually have to choose.”

The only time close 3p can’t simultaneously be omniscient (even if only under the hood or behind the curtain) is if it’s an in-universe character’s 3p POV. An omniscient narrator has all agency to only tell a close part of the story.

If the 3p close narrator does not explicitly purport to be an in-universe character, then I for one absolutely regard them as having an omniscient out-of-universe POV and as choosing to tell the story in a limited and close way. For their own inscrutable reasons

 

[Britva415]

And that highlights one of my problems with the way 1p is too often executed. When a 3p narrator is understood to be an out-of-universe and omniscient figure, recognizing them as “the author” is no problem, with regard to immersion. But when a 1p voice sounds too much like an author and not enough like a character, that’s hard to swallow. I called it “authorial fingersmudges” in another post recently.

I’ve been accused of “scratching at the paint” by talking about flaws like this, but… If the paint was flaking when I got here, sorry-not-sorry.