Silencing the voices

[Off_base]

I'm trying to understand, isn't a beta reader one who gives feedback about how a story made them feel, as opposed to an editor who gives feedback and suggests changes on the writing structure and plot?

Or, are they the same thing?

Legit question, I'm learning.

 

[Voboy]

Many of us are way too close and emotionally involved in our stories and we cannot be rational about them. Having a second opinion from someone who has no investment in your story is not that different than having readers tell you what they think of your story, with the difference that your story isn't live and if they see something that needs tweaking, you can make that change.

I think the reply is that, at that point, it's no longer "your" story as such. It's now a collaboration, even at a minor level. I'd not make a judgment call on whether that's a good thing or a bad thing; it's for every writer to figure out for themselves, I expect.

For myself, I'd at the VERY least offer public thanks as a foreword, unless the beta told me not to. I'm aware many people here do just that, and I applaud it.

 

[YmaOHyd]

I'm trying to understand, isn't a beta reader one who gives feedback about how a story made them feel, as opposed to an editor who gives feedback and suggests changes on the writing structure and plot?

Or, are they the same thing?

Legit question, I'm learning.

Conceptually, you're right. In practice, though, none of us are perfect and few of us have editors, so the two things blend together.

 

[DEFCOM5]

@iwatchus said, this thread is not about me anymore. So please highjack the hell out of it.

One thing I want to discuss is a comment that @EmilyMiller made regarding how you had to be an "approved author" for your opinion to matter or whatever. As a newer member of AH (am I a member or just a squatter?), I can tell that it is sometimes feels overwhelming to try to participate to a discussion.
I mean that if you look around, you have experience authors with a ton of published works, tons of view, high ranking, plenty of H and plenty of W. You feel like a rookie or a noob and wonder "what can I say that would actually add anything to the conversation?"
I am not sure if it is my own self insecurity or if other noobs like me to AH have felt the same.

 

[Off_base]

@iwatchus said, this thread is not about me anymore. So please highjack the hell out of it.

One thing I want to discuss is a comment that @EmilyMiller made regarding how you had to be an "approved author" for your opinion to matter or whatever. As a newer member of AH (am I a member or just a squatter?), I can tell that it is sometimes feels overwhelming to try to participate to a discussion.
I mean that if you look around, you have experience authors with a ton of published works, tons of view, high ranking, plenty of H and plenty of W. You feel like a rookie or a noob and wonder "what can I say that would actually add anything to the conversation?"
I am not sure if it is my own self insecurity or if other noobs like me to AH have felt the same.

I still feel the same a lot. I've had limited success on a small number of published stories, but I admire and envy those who've been successful on a large scale. I'd love to write something truly compelling and epic someday, which is why I hang out here and try to learn.

 

[Voboy]

@iwatchus said, this thread is not about me anymore. So please highjack the hell out of it.

One thing I want to discuss is a comment that @EmilyMiller made regarding how you had to be an "approved author" for your opinion to matter or whatever. As a newer member of AH (am I a member or just a squatter?), I can tell that it is sometimes feels overwhelming to try to participate to a discussion.
I mean that if you look around, you have experience authors with a ton of published works, tons of view, high ranking, plenty of H and plenty of W. You feel like a rookie or a noob and wonder "what can I say that would actually add anything to the conversation?"
I am not sure if it is my own self insecurity or if other noobs like me to AH have felt the same.

You're adding! Right now!

There are certainly gatekeepers here, but thus has it always been; just remember that everyone with a red H or a blue W (or even a green E!) was once an AH poster with three posts and just one story in Pending, nervously waiting for it to emerge. And even then, there were gatekeepers here. It was intimidating for me, for example, and when I challenged a much older poster, his subsequent complaints to Laurel got half my stories taken down temporarily. He knew it was frivolous and did it anyway, because he was a petty vindictive fuck.

So. Sometimes, the hazing is extreme.

The key is that the overwhelming majority of posters here are interested in helping everyone, no matter their level of experience. Some of them do that in a kindly way, others do it more abrasively. But nobody's here to make you a WORSE writer.

Your opinions have already added value. Don't worry about that!

 

[DEFCOM5]

Your opinions have already added value. Don't worry about that!

You are too kind.
I still feel that I am in the probatory period and I will need to go through the introduction ceremony into the secret society. Or more like an intern, hoping to get a return offer!

 

[Off_base]

If I write a reimagining of a published story, is it fully my story? If I write a story inspired by something I overhear a stranger say, is it fully my story? If I write a story based on historical events and historical characters, is it fully my story? If I change a draft because I read another story or watch a movie and it gives me an idea for a plot twist, is it fully my story? If I read a writing tip here in the AH and it helps me to improve my style, is it fully story?

A quick glance at my WIP folder tells me that ideas are the easy part of writing. Sitting down, putting in the effort and finishing the damned thing, that's what the real accomplishment of writing is. Any ideas that you pick up along the way are just part of the process, regardless of where they come from. You finish writing a story, unless you've plagiarised sections of text, it's fully your story.

This makes sense.
If a ball player gets a tip from a teammate on how to adjust their swing to hit more home runs, do they not still get full credit for hitting the home runs?

(I love softball and baseball)

 

[alohadave]

I think the reply is that, at that point, it's no longer "your" story as such. It's now a collaboration, even at a minor level. I'd not make a judgment call on whether that's a good thing or a bad thing; it's for every writer to figure out for themselves, I expect.

For myself, I'd at the VERY least offer public thanks as a foreword, unless the beta told me not to. I'm aware many people here do just that, and I applaud it.

If I tell you that part of your plot is confusing, then you look it over and decide that it could use a change, and you do all the work, is that really a collaborative effort?

 

[Voboy]

If I tell you that part of your plot is confusing, then you look it over and decide that it could use a change, and you do all the work, is that really a collaborative effort?

I think it is (speaking ONLY for myself). Because my plot was my plot. Now that I've changed it to suit you, it's no longer mine. It's partly yours.

 

[TheLobster]

If a beta-reader shouts their feedback in the forest and there’s no author there to hear it, is it still that author’s story?

 

[AwkwardlySet]

So anyway, writing and the creative process and whether that can ever be devoid of outside influences. Plus the evils of beta readers and how they will lead to the collapse of civilization (sorry @Voboy - as I say I understand your self-consistent stance fully).

There's really no need to ridicule the stance you don't share. I've said my opinion on using beta readers who contribute in non-trivial way, and it's a legitimate opinion, even if the majority of AH doesn't feel the same way. I'd say that makes it even more legitimate.

We can discuss the topic further, or we can agree to disagree right away, but petty ridicule doesn't do you any credit, really.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

There's really no need to ridicule the stance you don't share.

Unless you have an active fan club that bristles at your every post and you're seeking to rack up their reactions.

 

[iwatchus]

There's really no need to ridicule the stance you don't share

I have to say this is an odd stance for you, given the regularity with which you mock people who pass up any chance to denigrate the site.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I have to say this is an odd stance for you, given the regularity with which you mock people who pass up any chance to denigrate the site.

This is an outright lie. I don't mock people who support the site. I mock people who, in a knee-jerk reaction, immediately attack people (like me) who criticize certain aspects of the site.

I've never mocked people for feeling positive towards the site, and I've only ever teased @ElectricBlue for it, as a sort of friendly banter we've had for quite a while now.

And I think you've just proven what @Five_Inch_Heels said.

 

[Voboy]

Well. I thought it was a pretty good thread there, for a bit.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Well. I thought it was a pretty good thread there, for a bit.

Up until when?

 

[DEFCOM5]

Well. I thought it was a pretty good thread there, for a bit.

I did allow the highjack.

 

[Voboy]

Up until when?

Fair.

 

[MrPixel]

This site really does need the "ignore this thread" feature that you have on other forum sites. Once a thread has gone off the rails as so many around here do, it would be nice to simply not have the ignorable threads show up on the index. Versus, "Okay, this thread is still active... oh... oh, shit. Never mind."

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

This site really does need the "ignore this thread" feature that you have on other forum sites. Once a thread has gone off the rails as so many around here do, it would be nice to simply not have the ignorable threads show up on the index. Versus, "Okay, this thread is still active... oh... oh, shit. Never mind."

I do that by Unfollowing when they get too hot.

Yes, they still appear on the main page, but I can just scroll by them.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

This site really does need the "ignore this thread" feature that you have on other forum sites. Once a thread has gone off the rails as so many around here do, it would be nice to simply not have the ignorable threads show up on the index. Versus, "Okay, this thread is still active... oh... oh, shit. Never mind."

What exactly shocked you in this thread? It couldn't have been the derailment. The focus has shifted from the O.P., but the talk never strayed from the topic of beta readers, which was the central point of O.P.'s post.

Plus, there are dozens of threads where people almost kill the topic of the thread with puns and memes, yet I don't see people complain.

Please, what shocked you here?

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

At least with Awk1 and Awk2, you pretty much know what you've got. Most posters here .. I never really know what they're going to say or which position they'll take.

One made a REALLLLY unfortunate post in the last day or two that completely changed my opinion of them.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

At least with Awk1 and Awk2, you pretty much know what you've got. Most posters here .. I never really know what they're going to say or which position they'll take.

One made a REALLLLY unfortunate post in the last day or two that completely changed my opinion of them.

A question of utmost importance...

Am I 1 or 2?!

 

[alohadave]

I think it is (speaking ONLY for myself). Because my plot was my plot. Now that I've changed it to suit you, it's no longer mine. It's partly yours.

Fair enough.