The Biology of BSDM

[FrancesScott]

Certainly, but measurement uncertainty also makes mathematically solvable problems have increasingly unreliable predictions. My point was, the three-body problem being mathematically not solved doesn't mean it's automatically chaotic, nor does being mathematically soluble make something non-chaotic.

--Annie

According to Google AI (yes I know!)

Yes, the general three-body problem is considered chaotic, meaning its future motion is highly sensitive to initial conditions and cannot be predicted long-term. However, there are specific, non-chaotic "islands of regularity" where stable orbits exist, and scientists can use computers to simulate and find these solutions.

 

[AG31]

Also tagging @SimonDoom

I don't know anything about the genetics of BDSM, so I can't speak to that, but I just wanted to add here - there is a confound that I don't know if they accounted for here: Good communication in relationships. I've seen, for example, reports of the same in consensual polyamorous relationships, which often emphasize the need for open and honest communication about relationship desires and needs. The same would absolutely be true of healthy BDSM relationships.

It's also why the BDSM community at large HATED 50 Shades of Grey (at least, those corners of the community to which I had a connection at the time it was all over the place). Communication and consent were so lacking, it just undercut some central values that newbies in local scenes were always "trained" in for lack of a better word (yes, I know, we don't train our doms, but ... yea we do).

I'd just like to remind everyone that "the BDSM community," is a relatively recent phenomenon. Not all BDSM involves community and relationships. I wish there were another name for the community version.

 

[SamanthaBehgs]

I do know that. Depends what you mean by solved. I’d use approximated instead. And there is a non-zero probability of any approximation being wrong.

But the claim that with powerful enough computers we will naturally be able to accurately model human behavior is frankly hogwash.

I hate experts in one field wandering into another one, of which they know nothing, and making demonstrably false claims.

The argument was not just powerful enough computers, but also a knowledge of all relevant necessary variables and their present state. Whether that is something that will ever actually happen seems about as predictable as whether AGI is actually possible rather than just theoretically so. I am neither a theoretical physicist nor a determinist, so I'm able to pretty smoothly sidestep the issue while still acknowledging that both groups exist and have valuable debates amongst themselves.

I would note, however, that experts in the field of psychology (not myself, mind you, but those who have specific expertise, such as those focused on determinism) are not wandering into fields of which they know nothing if they are speaking regarding artificial intelligence or complex data modeling and computing. These are neither the sole domain of the mathematician nor the computer scientist, or even the bioinformaticist (is ... that the right word for someone involved in the field of bioinformatics? I'm not actually certain now that I write it out).

I'd just like to remind everyone that "the BDSM community," is a relatively recent phenomenon. Not all BDSM involves community and relationships. I wish there were another name for the community version.

So, I fully understand the one part and you're right - the idea of a "BDSM community" really only came out relatively recently, when folks started feeling more comfortable being a bit more open with others to find others who were into the same sorts of things.

And maybe this is a daft question on my part because I'm missing something obvious - but my thought was that before then, you would have BDSM play out in relationships more privately instead. I'm having trouble picturing BDSM that doesn't involve either community or relationship (with the exception of self-inflicted pain, perhaps?). Can you please point me towards the probably very obvious thing I'm missing here?

 

[FrancesScott]

I would note, however, that experts in the field of psychology (not myself, mind you, but those who have specific expertise, such as those focused on determinism) are not wandering into fields of which they know nothing if they are speaking regarding artificial intelligence or complex data modeling and computing.

Perhaps you know more about the field than I do. I don’t know a lot about psychology. Does the average psychologist opnining on the theoretical limits of knowledge have a Ph.D. in theoretical Physics as well? Do those opining on what computer can and can’t do have Ph.D.s in Information Science?

In the past, breakthroughs were sometimes led by experts in one field moving to another. For example experimental physicists feeling there was not much to do in their field causing the X-ray crystallography revolution in Biology.

But such people brought relevant experience with them. And the depth of human knowledge was such that being outstanding in two separate fields was feasible back then.

Today? I’m sure some psychologists may have some other post graduate degree, but how many?

I mean real expertise, not ‘I read some stuff.’

I hope that makes sense. It’s clear from what the guy being quoted said that his expertise is very narrow. Maybe he’s an exception.

 

[Britva415]

that's kind of tautological. If you missed out the word "erotically", it would be an assertion

The assertion was about the top's intention, though. That doesn't define the bottom's experience. So, tautology isn't a fallacy here.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I'd just like to remind everyone that "the BDSM community," is a relatively recent phenomenon. Not all BDSM involves community and relationships. I wish there were another name for the community version.

Yes and no.

I doubt there has ever been a single definitive "BDSM community", but there have been BDSM communities around for a long time. Gay leather subculture goes back to the 1940s at least.

When dealing with activities that were stigmatised and often illegal, it's hard to know exactly what people were up to before living memory. But there's plenty of evidence that people were into kinky stuff going way back and people who are into stuff tend to seek one another out.

Edit: People often will use "the BDSM community" as a kind of conversational shorthand for describing prevailing attitudes/etc. among people who do BDSM, without intending to imply that BDSM is one homogenous unified subculture. I took @SamanthaBehgs ' use of the term to be in that vein.

 

[nice90sguy]

I've never been part of any BDSM community, except one: A couple of years back a friend put my name up for membership of local non-consenting BDSM club. I refused to join. Apparently that was the single entry qualification, and I was accepted.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Edit: People often will use "the BDSM community" as a kind of conversational shorthand for describing prevailing attitudes/etc. among people who do BDSM, without intending to imply that BDSM is one homogenous unified subculture. I took @SamanthaBehgs ' use of the term to be in that vein.

You can sort all the activities that two people who are BDSM-minded might want to engage in into three distinct groups.
a) Those that are perfectly fine.
b) Those that are perfectly fine assuming you pay very specific attention to [this point]
c) Those which will end up in a trip to A&E and a permanent bodily reminder that you/your dom(me) is an idiot.

Even if you never want to meet with another BDSM practitioner, having a 'community' of people who can tell you which is which online is invaluable. As a corollary, those same people tend to have good advice for sorting potential doms into three categories - experts, posers and axe-murderers.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Yes and no.

I doubt there has ever been a single definitive "BDSM community", but there have been BDSM communities around for a long time. Gay leather subculture goes back to the 1940s at least.

When dealing with activities that were stigmatised and often illegal, it's hard to know exactly what people were up to before living memory. But there's plenty of evidence that people were into kinky stuff going way back and people who are into stuff tend to seek one another out.

Edit: People often will use "the BDSM community" as a kind of conversational shorthand for describing prevailing attitudes/etc. among people who do BDSM, without intending to imply that BDSM is one homogenous unified subculture. I took @SamanthaBehgs ' use of the term to be in that vein.

There were specialist brothels in Victorian times (and photos of BDSM), and 'molly houses' etc in the 1700s. Though it's likely that kinky sex was seen as something you did, rather than an identity - similar to how homosexuality was an activity (a sin?) one might engage in, rather than a descriptor if a person, until recent times.

If you count face-fucking as kinky, then you can go back to at least Catullus.

The word community is often used to mean simply people with a thing in common, but not who necessarily know of or socialise with each other - the disabled community, the immigrant community, etc.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

If you count face-fucking as kinky, then you can go back to at least Catullus.

The ancient Greeks had the idea of what we'd call a sexual perversion, but it's different from 21st Century Western culture. The disgusting sex act mentioned by in one of the Socratic dialogues was cunnilingus. Pederasty was encouraged.

--Annie

 

[nice90sguy]

…not forgetting the Literotica community

 

[AG31]

The argument was not just powerful enough computers, but also a knowledge of all relevant necessary variables and their present state. Whether that is something that will ever actually happen seems about as predictable as whether AGI is actually possible rather than just theoretically so. I am neither a theoretical physicist nor a determinist, so I'm able to pretty smoothly sidestep the issue while still acknowledging that both groups exist and have valuable debates amongst themselves.

I would note, however, that experts in the field of psychology (not myself, mind you, but those who have specific expertise, such as those focused on determinism) are not wandering into fields of which they know nothing if they are speaking regarding artificial intelligence or complex data modeling and computing. These are neither the sole domain of the mathematician nor the computer scientist, or even the bioinformaticist (is ... that the right word for someone involved in the field of bioinformatics? I'm not actually certain now that I write it out).



So, I fully understand the one part and you're right - the idea of a "BDSM community" really only came out relatively recently, when folks started feeling more comfortable being a bit more open with others to find others who were into the same sorts of things.

And maybe this is a daft question on my part because I'm missing something obvious - but my thought was that before then, you would have BDSM play out in relationships more privately instead. I'm having trouble picturing BDSM that doesn't involve either community or relationship (with the exception of self-inflicted pain, perhaps?). Can you please point me towards the probably very obvious thing I'm missing here?

BDSM doesn't have to involve relationships. There can be anonymity.

 

[AG31]

Yes and no.

I doubt there has ever been a single definitive "BDSM community", but there have been BDSM communities around for a long time. Gay leather subculture goes back to the 1940s at least.

Yes, and if someone would describe the difference (besides orientation) between the leather subculture and modern BDSM communities, with all their norms, that would go some way to illustrating my point. I'd take this on but I'm exhausted trying to find words for male chest hair.

Edit: People often will use "the BDSM community" as a kind of conversational shorthand for describing prevailing attitudes/etc. among people who do BDSM, without intending to imply that BDSM is one homogenous unified subculture. I took @SamanthaBehgs ' use of the term to be in that vein.

For sure. It's just that by using it as shorthand for a subset of the culture, it deprives the rest of us of a way to talk about the other subsets.

 

[AG31]

You can sort all the activities that two people who are BDSM-minded might want to engage in into three distinct groups.
a) Those that are perfectly fine.
b) Those that are perfectly fine assuming you pay very specific attention to [this point]
c) Those which will end up in a trip to A&E and a permanent bodily reminder that you/your dom(me) is an idiot.

Even if you never want to meet with another BDSM practitioner, having a 'community' of people who can tell you which is which online is invaluable. As a corollary, those same people tend to have good advice for sorting potential doms into three categories - experts, posers and axe-murderers.

The assumption that doesn't always apply is "two people."

 

[SamanthaBehgs]

Perhaps you know more about the field than I do. I don’t know a lot about psychology. Does the average psychologist opnining on the theoretical limits of knowledge have a Ph.D. in theoretical Physics as well? Do those opining on what computer can and can’t do have Ph.D.s in Information Science?

In the past, breakthroughs were sometimes led by experts in one field moving to another. For example experimental physicists feeling there was not much to do in their field causing the X-ray crystallography revolution in Biology.

But such people brought relevant experience with them. And the depth of human knowledge was such that being outstanding in two separate fields was feasible back then.

Today? I’m sure some psychologists may have some other post graduate degree, but how many?

I mean real expertise, not ‘I read some stuff.’

I hope that makes sense. It’s clear from what the guy being quoted said that his expertise is very narrow. Maybe he’s an exception.

The folks I am thinking about are people like the pioneers in the field of artificial intelligence who come from the field of cognitive psychology and either have secondary experience in computer programming or are collaborating with those who do. Those who helped develop the field of Bioinformatics which is, at its core, an interdisciplinary study. Are they theoretical physicists? Not that I know of. But they do specialize in the type of computing and the type of psychological science we'd need if we were ever going to predict human behavior in a deterministic way. Honestly in my professional life? I sidestep the issue. I don't need an opinion one way or the other to do what I do and to try to do the best job I can with it.

Regarding the Three Body Problem, I agree. I don't know any psychology field (doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but I do try to keep up with as many as I can so that I can tell students who might be interested) that would be involved in that theoretical physics problem. It was simply brought up by analogy to the prediction of human behavior because both can be considered chaotic systems (again, maybe the three body problem doesn't actually involve a chaotic system, and I'm wrong in characterizing it as such. Honestly, I don't want to contact the theoretical physicist I know to ask directly because they might ask why I want to know and...lying would feel wrong but telling the truth could cause family issues).

More of a meta-comment on this discussion: Thanks for being reasonable to discuss things with on this. I know it's hard to read tone online and you seem to be taking the perspective of giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming the best possible intentions. I really appreciate that.

 

[SamanthaBehgs]

BDSM doesn't have to involve relationships. There can be anonymity.

And therein lies where my confusion was. I was using the term "relationship" to simply mean the interaction between two people, not something requiring long term commitment or even knowing the other person (so therefore allowing that anonymity). I think this is another example of what you pointed out - not having precise enough language.

I will say I was using the term "The BDSM Community" in the way that @Bramblethorn stated - in the same way one might talk about "the ______ community" talking about a group of people who may never directly interact with each other but have a shared set of behaviors and very often (though not always) values that may become relevant when confronted with a particular outside influence (e.g., objecting to being characterized as not caring about safe words, consent, etc.). I do also think the recent increase in internet usage has increased that sense of "community" among many _____ groups, but I can also speak to there being such a community before the internet took over community organizing.

I've never been part of any BDSM community, except one: A couple of years back a friend put my name up for membership of local non-consenting BDSM club. I refused to join. Apparently that was the single entry qualification, and I was accepted.

True story? Did they have meetings that were held in your living room and demanded snacks at random times?


And finally:

@TheWritingGroup @Kumquatqueen - please tell me you know a good source to add to my ever growing reading list that goes over this history. I'm loving it. I hate going onto the BDSM forum boards but I feel like if I wanted to end up with a thread just on this history, that's where I'd end up otherwise, even if it were because I might eventually want to write a story about it.

(tried to make this all one post to avoid spamming the board as best as I could, especially since there are some additional conversations going on that I don't have anything useful to add to, like @Britva415 and @nice90sguy discussing erotic spankings and their universal application. Don't want to flood them off the feed.)

 

[nice90sguy]

True story?

It was a version of the Groucho Marx quip.

 

[AG31]

have a shared set of behaviors and very often (though not always) values

It's the claim by some that "the BDSM community" has a shared set of norms, things like trust, that I want to say does not always apply. I'm not sure where to draw the line betwee "behaviors" and "values."

 

[SamanthaBehgs]

It was a version of the Groucho Marx quip.

Yea, definitely some egg on my face. The "laugh" react to your post? At myself and missing something I should have caught.

But now, I am going to keep that picture of people invading and demanding snacks in my head.

 

[SamanthaBehgs]

It's the claim by some that "the BDSM community" has a shared set of norms, things like trust, that I want to say does not always apply. I'm not sure where to draw the line betwee "behaviors" and "values."

That could be said of any "______ community" though. Even a plurality (or even a majority) of members of a community have a set of norms, that doesn't mean that every individual member does. It's why you have to treat individual members as an individual human regardless of any type of group membership, BDSM included. For example, differences between the sexes do exist, but that doesn't mean that any individual person you meet will actually show that difference (e.g., some women have higher testosterone than the average man, some men release more oxytocin during a stressful situation than the average woman, etc.). So whereas you may see group characteristics in the "BDSM community," it doesn't mean you'll see alignment with those in any individual who practices or enjoys BDSM, and you will certainly have a hard time finding someone who fits every possible definition of the "average BDSM community member." This reminds me a lot of the discussion on another thread of "the average woman" that I was trying to describe. I've gotten great advice there, but ultimately everyone is, of course, right that the word "average" really messes things up in that discussion.

Oh man, if I could tell a definitive place on where to draw the line between "value" and "behavior" - or even more how to help behaviors more consistently align with values - I could get the best book deal ever! Self-help section here we come! (In all seriousness, I don't think there's a good place to draw that line in that grey area).

In other words - I think we're agreeing more than disagreeing here, but perhaps the problem is not between your perspective and mine but is instead a matter of elaborating on where we are agreeing? Or are you seeing more here that you disagree with that I'm not fully picking up on?

 

[Britva415]

I was using the term "relationship" to simply mean the interaction between two people, not something requiring long term commitment or even knowing the other person (so therefore allowing that anonymity). I think this is another example of what you pointed out - not having precise enough language.

I call this an “interaction” because “relationship,” while n0t-wr0ng, implies something else.

 

[Britva415]

I'm not sure where to draw the line betwee "behaviors" and "values."

They often don’t match. At least, an individual’s behaviors often don’t match that individual’s (stated) values.

You can’t point to the same incongruence at a community level because values are abstract and behaviors are concrete.

A “line” between behaviors and values is a little bit like a “line” between a color (abstract) versus a pigment (physical). There isn’t much overlap, though people will argue about whether a particular object is really a particular color or not.

 

[AG31]

That could be said of any "______ community" though. Even a plurality (or even a majority) of members of a community have a set of norms, that doesn't mean that every individual member does. It's why you have to treat individual members as an individual human regardless of any type of group membership, BDSM included. For example, differences between the sexes do exist, but that doesn't mean that any individual person you meet will actually show that difference (e.g., some women have higher testosterone than the average man, some men release more oxytocin during a stressful situation than the average woman, etc.). So whereas you may see group characteristics in the "BDSM community," it doesn't mean you'll see alignment with those in any individual who practices or enjoys BDSM, and you will certainly have a hard time finding someone who fits every possible definition of the "average BDSM community member." This reminds me a lot of the discussion on another thread of "the average woman" that I was trying to describe. I've gotten great advice there, but ultimately everyone is, of course, right that the word "average" really messes things up in that discussion.

Oh man, if I could tell a definitive place on where to draw the line between "value" and "behavior" - or even more how to help behaviors more consistently align with values - I could get the best book deal ever! Self-help section here we come! (In all seriousness, I don't think there's a good place to draw that line in that grey area).

In other words - I think we're agreeing more than disagreeing here, but perhaps the problem is not between your perspective and mine but is instead a matter of elaborating on where we are agreeing? Or are you seeing more here that you disagree with that I'm not fully picking up on?

We seem to agree on a lot. You just don't notice the <senior moment - the word describing contries that take over other countries...> quality of "the BDSM community" as much as I do. You don't think calling them a community denies the existence of "outsiders," but it's when the members claim to define BDSM that I speak up.

 

[SamanthaBehgs]

<senior moment - the word describing contries that take over other countries...>

Don't worry - I know exactly the word you mean even though I can't seem to pull it from memory either.

You don't think calling them a community denies the existence of "outsiders," but it's when the members claim to define BDSM that I speak up.

Very fair. Thank you for expanding on what I was overlooking. The trick now would be to find a better word or phrase. English kinda sucks at that sometimes.

I call this an “interaction” because “relationship,” while n0t-wr0ng, implies something else.

Makes sense. My dork of a brain often just falls into the technical use of relationship, but you're right, the connotation is different. An interaction is a much better word there. Thanks!

I do have to ask, though. Why the zeroes? I fet the sense that I'm missing something there (and I've missed a few things like a great Groucho Marx reference).

 

[FrancesScott]

maybe the three body problem doesn't actually involve a chaotic system

It does. Definitively.

Thanks for being reasonable to discuss things with on this. I know it's hard to read tone online and you seem to be taking the perspective of giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming the best possible intentions. I really appreciate that.

Likewise!