The Biology of BSDM

[nice90sguy]

I watched a video made by a well-known neuroscientist, where he "explained" BDSM in terms of the amygdala (fight-or-flight) response. Basically, he was saying that people "consfuse" the adrenal response casued by sexual arousal with the similar activation of the amygdala when you're scared/angry. It didn't ring true to me at all; I find that both fear and anger LOWER my sexual arousal, which is why my personal sexual kink (hypnosis) is very much connected with letting go and lowering stress.

The thread where people talked about "hate fucks" (a turn-off for me), made me think that there's probably something to it though.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Fear and anger don't do it for me either. It's just one more generalization and simplification, as far as I can tell. We are complex beings, so I wouldn't really base all the pleasure, physical and mental, that one gleans from various acts of BDSM as a stimulus from just one small part of our brain. If it really is as the scientist suggests, why do we all react so differently to the BDSM kind of stimulus? What makes my amygdala responsive to some of the BDSM, while others find the same stimulus repulsive? The cause has to be more complex than that.

Otherwise, what use would there be for all the stories where we slowly build up desire and longing before releasing it with sex? Surely, if it were just about the amygdala, we would cream ourselves as soon as we saw a rope or a whip?

 

[AwkwardlySet]

This topic caused me to think about the origins of my kinks, and now I actually feel indecisive about all of this.

My kinks are now far, far more developed, but the thing is, I can remember having them even in my earliest memories.
I distinctly remember having a foot fetish and a tendency for soft femdom even as early as three or four years old, much before I understood any of it, and much before I understood the nice but strange and unexplainable feeling I got when in proximity to attractive women's feet. Could it have been sexual at that age?

Curse you, @nice90sguy

 

[Jackie.Hikaru]

I wonder if that neuroscientist has ever been spanked?

I mean I guess I can see it? In some people in certain acts definitely.

There’s a world in BDSM though, and most of it, I dare say, is not amygdalar in nature. The appeal to me has more to do with how heightened physiological situations can strengthen bonds (bondage, heh). There’s a higher degree of trust involved on many levels.

I don’t know what the neuroscience behind it is, but for me the appeal is mostly about the intensity of the bond and the trust you develop by going through with an adverse situation, even if manufactured.

And ok maybe there’s an element of fight or flight. After all, it does take a hell of a lot of courage to sharing your kinky desires with your partner. You risk shame, embarrassment, eliciting disgust, and ostracization and so forth, but if the response from your partner is enthusiasm, the catharsis from that is amazing.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

Biology, you say? [Grows pointy ears so they can stand up]

This thread is about oversimplification. The original referenced scientist almost certainly wasn't saying that everyone who likes BDSM enjoys it in the same way, or for the same reason, because that would be silly. People very a lot, and a single person is enormously complex.

I'm certain that for some people, that's a real effect. What I think the anonymous scientist was saying is that for many folks, excitement caused by one thing can generalize over to other things. It's the same phenomenon that makes roller coasters fun. The fear makes your heart pound and your palms sweat, but you know perfectly well you won't actually die, so the energy* involved is generalized, and ends up feeling fun.

*Not actually energy as physicists or chemists use the word.

Does that explain why some folks enjoy lifestyle submission or dominance? No! Does anonymous scientist think so? I doubt it!

--Annie

 

[Erozetta]

I mean, in my case, there's zero confusion about fear = arousal for me. But also pain = arousal. Both are absolutely favorable responses to the chemicals the body produces and releases in response to the stimuli.

However, consent is still required for either to function properly for me. It's not just fear, it's fear layered with trust. It's not just pain, it's pain layered with love.

I don't scare or hurt easily. I'm more likely to laugh at someone trying to intimidate or frighten me and block someone from hitting me, or hitting them right back. But when I want it and from the person I want it from? All the chemicals work in my favor.

 

[sirhugs]

Biology, you say? [Grows pointy ears so they can stand up]

This thread is about oversimplification. The original referenced scientist almost certainly wasn't saying that everyone who likes BDSM enjoys it in the same way, or for the same reason, because that would be silly. People very a lot, and a single person is enormously complex.

I'm certain that for some people, that's a real effect. What I think the anonymous scientist was saying is that for many folks, excitement caused by one thing can generalize over to other things. It's the same phenomenon that makes roller coasters fun. The fear makes your heart pound and your palms sweat, but you know perfectly well you won't actually die, so the energy* involved is generalized, and ends up feeling fun.

*Not actually energy as physicists or chemists use the word.

Does that explain why some folks enjoy lifestyle submission or dominance? No! Does anonymous scientist think so? I doubt it!

--Annie

roller coasters are fun?
coulda fooled me.

 

[AG31]

I watched a video made by a well-known neuroscientist, where he "explained" BDSM in terms of the amygdala (fight-or-flight) response. Basically, he was saying that people "consfuse" the adrenal response casued by sexual arousal with the similar activation of the amygdala when you're scared/angry. It didn't ring true to me at all; I find that both fear and anger LOWER my sexual arousal, which is why my personal sexual kink (hypnosis) is very much connected with letting go and lowering stress.

The thread where people talked about "hate fucks" (a turn-off for me), made me think that there's probably something to it though.

I've been interested in this question a long time. The nearest I've seen to addressing it is @OverconfidentSarcasm's mention of "the Call of the Void." The idea hovers around what your neuroscientist was talking about, but I agree that they didn't nail it.

 

[AG31]

This topic caused me to think about the origins of my kinks, and now I actually feel indecisive about all of this.

My kinks are now far, far more developed, but the thing is, I can remember having them even in my earliest memories.
I distinctly remember having a foot fetish and a tendency for soft femdom even as early as three or four years old, much before I understood any of it,

Me too.

 

[AG31]

Over the course of the last few years visiting AH, I've pinnd down two things about me and BDSM, for what it's worth here.

1 - My interest lives in a very distinct, walled off, part of my brain. I have no interest at all in acting out any of my fantasies. A couple of my stories feature the disconnect between BDSM and real life.

2 - There's some sort of connection between my BDSM fantasy life and my liking for stories (not necessarily erotic) about heroic self sacrifie. I don't know what that connection is.

 

[Britva415]

I wonder if that neuroscientist has ever been spanked?

They were, and it made them angry and scared.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

BDSM is a huge range of interests.

Enjoying particular intense physical sensations often goes with other sensory issues where someone finds certain things unpleasant or craves them. (yes, interest in BSDM is common in autistic people). It can include nice tactile experiences, ramp up to more intense ones, which the body continues to interpret as satisfying.

Context and building up are vital - a spank from a lover who's fondled you and built up to it is very different from an unexpected assault resulting in the same mark. Though people reframing painful or embarrassing experiences into kinkiness in their brains is a coping mechanism (though I insist the NHS gave me my medical fetish...)

But then there's pyschological aspects - apart from the tactile side of bondage, say, there's being forced to cast aside all responsibility for what's going to happen and just accept. There's a stereotype of people in stressful jobs craving bondage, because it forces them to relax, but same goes for anyone. And while you might be forced to stop being responsible, you'd be daft not to be a bit nervous no matter how much you trust your partner and have agreed what will happen. The roller-coaster analogy is a good one - you're out of control until you're released at the end of the trip. So yes, some fear and excitement is part of it.

Then you get things like humiliation kinks which are about craving acceptance - someone agrees you're useless but plays with you anyway. Much more psychologically complex.

Etc...

 

[Cinnyperez]

Fear definitely lowers my sexual arousal and anger 'typically' does too. I have engaged in so-called "hate/anger sex," but it felt more about power, control, and ego (i.e. you hate my guts, but I'm so irresistible you can't stop fucking me, and right now your ability to cum is completely dependent on whether I allow it). But that's never given me any interest in full-on BDSM.

 

[SimonDoom]

I agree with what TheWritingGroup (Annie) wrote. I would add to it two things:

One, the "source" of the appeal of BDSM almost certainly is a blend of biology, psychology, and cultural influences, and can't be understood without taking into account all three.

Two (there I go with enumeration again), BDSM is a big umbrella that encompasses different kinds of kinks, and each probably has its own blend of sources. There's the interest in pain, both receiving and inflicting. There's the interest in dominance and submission, which may or may not involve any pain. And finally, there's the interest in bondage, from the points of view of the person doing the binding and the person being bound.

I have very little interest in pain, especially receiving, but I've known women who liked being spanked, and I've been happy to oblige, up to a point. I get no pleasure from having pain inflicted on me. I think there probably IS something to the idea that biology explains the different levels of pain tolerance and that for some there's an endorphin rush or other reaction that is akin to what one experiences in riding a roller coaster, or having intensely pleasurable sex.

I enjoy being on the dominant side of the dominance-submission. I think that's better explained via psychology and culture than by biology.

Same thing with bondage. Things like rope play. That has a great appeal similar to that of dominance-submission but there's also an interesting artist-muse aspect to it.

I think (for me, and based on what I've read) that the appeal of BDSM lies partly in being able to explore, and within a consensual context magnify and give exprssion to, basic impulses within us that are suppressed most of the time. I've known strong women who enjoy being bound or dominated. It's a fun way to "let the beast out."

 

[TheWritingGroup]

Two (there I go with enumeration again) ...

How many times have you enumerated?

--Annie (uncountably many)

 

[kreemi_pi]

I probably have no clue how this actually works, but intuitively it seems pretty simple. Your brain is "wired" to receive, interpret and respond to signals from the body. Certain experiences you have (getting spanked as a kid while you have a boner?) will influence how you're wired. Might be also impacted by individual physical factors (the pleasure receptor being next to the pain receptor).

Light to moderate pain turns me. "Fear" isn't a factor, i wouldn't do BDSM with someone i didn't trust.

In a thread full of oversimplification, mine is the oversimplifiedest

 

[gunhilltrain]

roller coasters are fun?
coulda fooled me.

I couldn't stand roller coasters and I gave up on them. The last one I rode was the now defunct one in Playland, Rockaway, New York. It was like facing a series of fatal accidents and just missing all of them. I kept feeling that I was going to be decapitated by the beams going just above my head.

https://www.boweryboyshistory.com/w...story.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/1952.jpg

Oh BDSM: I'll get to that.

 

[SamanthaBehgs]

I think one thing that is being missed here (and I have no idea if it was missed in the original scientist's explaination) is that the "fight or flight" response being referenced isn't just for anger and fear, but anger and fear are really all we think about when we hear "fight or flight," unless we already know more than they seem to have been discussing.

Instead, that phrase is used to avoid a more intimidating sounding one, the sympathetic nervous system. This system is involved in anger and fear, sure, but also in lust, love, excitement, and ecstasy. Any emotion that you consider a "high energy" type emotion involves an activation of your fight or flight response.

So what differentiates between it being considered pleasant or unpleasant? What makes it sexually arousing versus not? A big answer to that is how you cognitively assess the situation. Those feelings of safety and consent folks mention. They are thoughts that change the way the same exact physiological response (same intensity of activation of that fight or flight response) can become a different emotion entirely. There was research done, for example, where college students met an attractive member of the opposite sex (it was early research that assumed everyone was heterosexual) either in a "safe" situation (sitting in a waiting room) or an "unsafe" one (I believe they were walking on a rickety bridge across a ravine It was scary, but no one was injured in the making of this science). Later, they were asked to rate the attractiveness of the person they met. Those who were walking over the ravine found the person they met to be more attractive than those in the safe situation. That is, they mis-attributed the arousal (another word for activating that fight or flight response) to being attraction rather than, you know, being afraid of being on a rickety bridge over a ravine. They then compared those ratings to a third group - they walked over the ravine but didn't meet the member of the opposite sex until later, when they were back in the waiting room of the science lab. That third group? Their scores were just like the group that never crossed the ravine. They didn't meet this member of the opposite sex while their fight or flight response was active, so they didn't experience that arousal, and didn't have any reason to misattribute it.


tl;dr from the babbling? The use of "fight or flight" is a GROSS oversimplication of the biology here that leads to making assumptions about the emotions that go with that biology. When we get rid of those assumptions and add in that where we *think* that arousal came from (even if that thinking is subconscious) helps to decide what emotion we experience as a result - most of the comments here makes sense while still being able to say "yea, that scientist had the right of it, he just...oversimplified things to the point of seeming wrong." You can even look at the comments saying that bondage let's the chronically stressed out relax using the sympathetic nervous system a little differently - that's someone with chronic arousal in that system finally letting the parasympathetic ("rest and digest" is what it's often oversimplified as) do its job. More biology helping to drive our psychology - we can never escape it.

 

[SamanthaBehgs]

The last one I rode was the now defunct one in Playland, Rockaway, New York.

Heck yea, I loved Playland as a kid. They had some great rides and also some that I questioned why they were still in service...

 

[kreemi_pi]

In women, the butt cheeks are wired through the Hot Bone, which in turn is connected to the Fuck Center in the brain.

That's why spanking turns us on.

Sorry for all the technical jargon.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Heck yea, I loved Playland as a kid. They had some great rides and also some that I questioned why they were still in service...

It was called the Atom Smasher. It closed in 1985.

 

[SamanthaBehgs]

In women, the butt cheeks are wired through the Hot Bone, which in turn is connected to the Fuck Center in the brain.

That's why spanking turns us on.

Sorry for all the technical jargon.

If I didn't already have a TON of story ideas written down - I'd finally learn anatomy JUST to rename everything like this. Love it!

 

[kreemi_pi]

If I didn't already have a TON of story ideas written down - I'd finally learn anatomy JUST to rename everything like this. Love it!

Get goin' on those stories!

 

[nice90sguy]

a video made by a well-known neuroscientist

It's kind of creepy, because he's being interviewed by his daughter, but he says a lot of intersting stuff. And he answered all my penis-size questions too...

 

[SamanthaBehgs]

It's kind of creepy, because he's being interviewed by his daughter, but he says a lot of intersting stuff. And he answered all my penis-size questions too...

Thanks! Going to have to watch this tomorrow when the kids are out of the house and definitely NOT logged into Facebook, but I look forward to it!