"Give the Fans What They Want"

[Actingup]

I wasn't looking for pity. Just trying to say that mass transit has become tiresome to use and the costs of new rail lines in places like Phoenix make them boondoggles. Why, in fact, only 4% of Americans use it.

Last streetcars in Phoenix - first generation, in other words, operated by a private company. 1948.

https://www.azcentral.com/gcdn/pres...660&height=409&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp

Yes, it's quite noticeable when visiting the USA that public transport isn't very functional in most places. I think that if you lived in a country/city with strong investment in public transport, your experience would be quite different.

 

[dirk2024]

Yes, it's quite noticeable when visiting the USA that public transport isn't very functional in most places. I think that if you lived in a country/city with strong investment in public transport, your experience would be quite different.

A lot of it has to do with the car culture that started to override mass transit 100 years ago. Many cities are laid out in a manner that the streets aren't conducive to bus train routes. So, while they exist, it can still take 2 hours to get to your desitination that is a 30-40 minute car ride. That's because it takes one or two 30 minute walks and at least two bus transfers.

Many rail lines were either removed or paved over.

 

[Cacatua_Galerita]

A lot of it has to do with the car culture that started to override mass transit 100 years ago. Many cities are laid out in a manner that the streets aren't conducive to bus train routes. So, while they exist, it can still take 2 hours to get to your desitination that is a 30-40 minute car ride. That's because it takes one or two 30 minute walks and at least two bus transfers.

Many rail lines were either removed or paved over.

It’s not just public transport that’s been (purposefully) neglected. Walking is also inconvenient in many American cities.

Washington DC is okay, but in Honolulu I remember trying to walk from a strip mall to the neighboring shop on the same block. There was no sidewalk at all, because the separator was dedicated to a car park entry. As I was stumbling over the ridiculously large ‘non-mountable’ curbs – looking both ways for traffic, as tourists must – I almost got bludgeoned by a camouflaged boom gate that swung closed next to my shoulder. If it hit me on the head and knocked me out, I know that the next truck might have driven over me because… fuck pedestrians, they must be too poor to own a car.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

A lot of it has to do with the car culture that started to override mass transit 100 years ago. Many cities are laid out in a manner that the streets aren't conducive to bus train routes. So, while they exist, it can still take 2 hours to get to your desitination that is a 30-40 minute car ride. That's because it takes one or two 30 minute walks and at least two bus transfers.

Many rail lines were either removed or paved over.

Heh. (laughs in European). The huge wide highways and streets in most US cities would be ideal for adding trams to - a total doddle compared to squeezing them in between buildings in the UK. Look at maps of central Croydon, Edinburgh, Sheffield or Nottingham for where tramlines have been built in the last couple decades. Outside city centres where there's space, it's easy. The only thing the US lacks is political will.

One thing that surprises me every time I'm in America is the amount of disused space between buildings. Not just between big box stores along highways, but in towns and cities. Even places like Harlem in Manhattan. I'm often thinking 'you could fit a bus through there!'

 

[TheLobster]

The only thing the US lacks is political will.

Nah, it would also need to bend the laws of physics.

The main problem that US has is size. Most Europeans simply do not comprehend how much space there is in the US, and because there's always been enough space everything has been built so widely apart that you needed a car to get there. And since you need a car, you also need parking lots, which add more space requirements that keep everything further apart.

The side effect of it is that there are very few places with enough population density to warrant a full-fledged public transportation network. Cities should be an exception, but many American cities are also incredibly sprawling, especially on the West Coast. Those that don't, and therefore have little to no excuse to suck in terms of PT, are usually hamstrung by incompetent politicians and NIMBYism and/or environmental regulations (like San Francisco). These are the places that could definitely do better, but the rest of the country? Not so much.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Nah, it would also need to bend the laws of physics.

The main problem that US has is size. Most Europeans simply do not comprehend how much space there is in the US, and because there's always been enough space everything has been built so widely apart that you needed a car to get there. And since you need a car, you also need parking lots, which add more space requirements that keep everything further apart.

The side effect of it is that there are very few places with enough population density to warrant a full-fledged public transportation network. Cities should be an exception, but many American cities are also incredibly sprawling, especially on the West Coast. Those that don't, and therefore have little to no excuse to suck in terms of PT, are usually hamstrung by incompetent politicians and NIMBYism and/or environmental regulations (like San Francisco). These are the places that could definitely do better, but the rest of the country? Not so much.

I didn't expect this thread to drift so much. I could talk about this all day, but it really belongs in Politics or the General Board where it would get lost in a whatever goes on in those forums. There are sites where this would be on topic (one is called Railroad.net, I think, but I haven't posted there in a long time). What this thread was about, I think, was whether readers here really want what they say in the comments. Some do, I think. But like all of the Internet, there is plenty of "noise" in the sense of virtue signalling, trolling, pranks, people who are just crazy, and so forth. Also, one could write on Lit and pander to get the biggest audience, which does seem to happen.

Just write about a Mom sitting on her son's lap in the back of a car and see if anybody says, "This has been done before!"

 

[yowser]

Just write about a Mom sitting on her son's lap in the back of a car and see if anybody says, "This has been done before!"

Naw. They'd just say 'You shoulda done it on public transit!'

 

[gunhilltrain]

Naw. They'd just say 'You shoulda done it on public transit!'

I did do a take on it where the stepmom (I can't do blood relatives) drives a moving van, a two-axle Freightliner, in Nevada. (A tractor-trailer would have been two much.) No dad or sis around, just the desert. Nobody said it had been done before. I guess it was different enough that no one called me out, although I had been inspired be the trope.

https://classic.literotica.com/s/trucker-mom-1

There's another story with the same title from many years ago. I didn't know it existed. Also, he cops out in the second sentence. There is no truck.

https://classic.literotica.com/s/trucker-mom

 

[SmilingLez]

I remember, as an undergraduate, my English Lit Professor told us a good writer can write about any subject. I disagree. If your heart isn't into what you are writing, there is no heartbeat.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Nah, it would also need to bend the laws of physics.

The main problem that US has is size. Most Europeans simply do not comprehend how much space there is in the US, and because there's always been enough space everything has been built so widely apart that you needed a car to get there.

Liechtenstein is a semi-constitutional monarchy headed by the prince of Liechtenstein of the House of Liechtenstein, currently led by Hans-Adam II. It is Europe's fourth-smallest country, with an area of just over 160 square kilometres (62 square miles)

New York City on the other hand:

With an estimated population in July 2024 of 8,478,072, distributed over 300.46 square miles (778.2 km 2),

Even relatively small Detroit:

"In terms of land mass, Detroit is a small city; of the 24 U.S. municipalities with at least 600,000 residents, Detroit is the fourth smallest, at 139 square miles (360 sq km)."

 

[DanOkeffie]

Yup.

https://variety.com/2018/film/opinion/william-goldman-dies-appreciation-1203030781/

William Goldman wrote a book "Nobody Knows Anything" about how people whose entire career is about making and selling movies still have no clue what's going to sell and what won't. I don't have any reason to think the average amateur writer is better equipped to gauge their market.

So why bother trying to pander to the market when one doesn't even know what the market is?

Agreed, we need to write what pleases us! Otherwise it might sound forced or fake

 

[Comshaw]

Food for thought from something I read elsewhere. Not a position I am necessarily advocating, but I am interested in other's thoughts.

It is pointless for a creator (in any medium) to try to give the fans what they want, because the real fans enjoy what they are getting and aren't the ones making suggestions for changes.

Time for me to chime in. Fans? Really? Do I have them? Hell I don't know. I do know I have half a dozen who comment regularly on my work so I guess those could be considered fans. Of course, the one most prolific at commenting can be both complimentary and an asshat. That's our old friend Anon, and in his asshat phase, may he have pubic crabs everlasting.

Should we try to give them what they want? I don't think so. There are good writers and good readers. A good writer can put together a story that is entertaining and keeps the reader engaged. A good reader can appreciate and enjoy a well-built, entertaining story even if it's not a kink they are into. And trying to intentionally write a story to someone else's desires will cause no end of headaches for the writer.

Write a good story and you'll attract good readers. Trying to pander to one particular faction will not only end in disaster, but will also be frustrating for the writer.

Comshaw

 

[Comshaw]

Nah, it would also need to bend the laws of physics.

The main problem that US has is size. Most Europeans simply do not comprehend how much space there is in the US, and because there's always been enough space everything has been built so widely apart that you needed a car to get there. And since you need a car, you also need parking lots, which add more space requirements that keep everything further apart.

The side effect of it is that there are very few places with enough population density to warrant a full-fledged public transportation network. Cities should be an exception, but many American cities are also incredibly sprawling, especially on the West Coast. Those that don't, and therefore have little to no excuse to suck in terms of PT, are usually hamstrung by incompetent politicians and NIMBYism and/or environmental regulations (like San Francisco). These are the places that could definitely do better, but the rest of the country? Not so much.

It all comes back to population density. There is a critical point where the population density is high enough to warrant public transportation.

Europe on the whole, has a population density of 106 people per square kilometer. The United States on the other hand, has a population density of 36.43 people per square kilometer.

An example: my county didn't have any public transportation until 1980 and then only for half the county on half a dozen routes. The other half didn't get it (and it was only two routes on main highways) until 1984.

Distance is another factor for all the cars we have. I live 6 miles from the nearest store of any kind and 7 miles from the nearest supermarket.
As a kid I lived 7 miles for the nearest store and 12 miles from the nearest town.

Public transportation only makes sense if there is a population base to support it.


Comshaw

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

I'm well over 20 miles to a supermarket.

Density in my immediate area is likely less than one person per Sq Mile.

 

[lovecraft68]

Give the fans what you want, and you will find fans who want that.

Our stories are the fire, they're the moths.

We create, they consume, and they consume what we create.

My answer to most things here is just write your story and worry about things later, or don't worry and move on to the next one.

 

[Actingup]

It all comes back to population density. There is a critical point where the population density is high enough to warrant public transportation.

Europe on the whole, has a population density of 106 people per square kilometer. The United States on the other hand, has a population density of 36.43 people per square kilometer.

An example: my county didn't have any public transportation until 1980 and then only for half the county on half a dozen routes. The other half didn't get it (and it was only two routes on main highways) until 1984.

Distance is another factor for all the cars we have. I live 6 miles from the nearest store of any kind and 7 miles from the nearest supermarket.
As a kid I lived 7 miles for the nearest store and 12 miles from the nearest town.

Public transportation only makes sense if there is a population base to support it.


Comshaw

Exhibit A. What is the continent with the lowest population density?



Exhibit B:


(Okay, so penguins weren't counted on the above map). My point is that it's not about overall population density. It's about how we construct our cities. It's a choice. And I know we're way off topic here....

 

[Comshaw]

Exhibit A. What is the continent with the lowest population density?

View attachment 2562164

Exhibit B:
View attachment 2562165

(Okay, so penguins weren't counted on the above map). My point is that it's not about overall population density. It's about how we construct our cities. It's a choice. And I know we're way off topic here....

While I will concede that the construction of cities has some impact on mass transit, it is not the biggest determining factor. Look closely at the map you posted. Look at Europe, China, India and Japan. What do they all have in common? High population densities AND each one of those named has a lot of mass transit in and because of those populated areas.

Now look at North America, Central America and South America. Except for some cities with a high population density (which do have mass transit) you won't find a lot of mass transit. Why? Because there isn't enough people to warrant one. If you compare the US to central Africa you'll see our population is pretty much on par.

Los Angeles is one of those cities that does bear out your assertion. It is spread out and sprawling and doesn't lend itself to mass transit. BUT LA is an anomaly as far as cities go. Many of the high population cities on the East Coast have lots of mass transit, such as busses and subways.

Seattle has had busses for years. They are in the process of installing light rail down the I-5 corridor. It has nothing to do with the construction of the cities along the route and everything to do with the fact of increased population.

Comshaw

 

[M_K_Babalon]

A lot of it has to do with the car culture that started to override mass transit 100 years ago. Many cities are laid out in a manner that the streets aren't conducive to bus train routes. So, while they exist, it can still take 2 hours to get to your desitination that is a 30-40 minute car ride. That's because it takes one or two 30 minute walks and at least two bus transfers.

Many rail lines were either removed or paved over.

Louisville is basically like this. And southern Indiana has no transit of it's own. Jeffersonville, Clarksville, and New albany uses our TARCs, well... the two busses that run around there.

On original topic; I don't write to find fans or readers, I write so they can find me.

 

[DeMont]

Fans become fans because they enjoy what they're getting. Some fans will stick with a creator through thick and thin, defending even their poorest works while others drift away after being repeatedly disappointed.

So who's the real fan there? The fan who's dedicated to the creator, or the fan who's dedicated to the quality of their works?

@StillStunned,
That's quite a true statement my dear colleague.
"Fans become fans because they enjoy what they're getting." I could go as far as point to the Rambo franchise (5 movies), the Rocky franchise (9 movies) and the Star Wars franchise (12 major motion pictures to date)

I could also point to my best friend, he collects Star Trek movies, last I saw him an entire wall (not the small one) in his living room was shelved to house his entire collection. Which poses an intriguing question, when does a fan stop being a fan and become obsessed?

Respectfully,
D.

 

[TheRedChamber]

@StillStunned,
That's quite a true statement my dear colleague.
"Fans become fans because they enjoy what they're getting." I could go as far as point to the Rambo franchise (5 movies), the Rocky franchise (9 movies) and the Star Wars franchise (12 major motion pictures to date)

I could also point to my best friend, he collects Star Trek movies, last I saw him an entire wall (not the small one) in his living room was shelved to house his entire collection. Which poses an intriguing question, when does a fan stop being a fan and become obsessed?

Respectfully,
D.

That's why I find it easier these days to say things like "I'm a fan of good science-fiction," rather than name any one particular franchise. Of course, for full disclosure, I also need to add, "I'm also a fan of cheesy terrible science-fiction as well."