The Exact Same NC/R Discussion We Always Have... Once More.

[MediocreAuthor]

Okay so I know we have this discussion/argument all the time, and nobody's opinion ever changes (which is perfectly fine). However, I had some new insight I thought I might share.

I was on a different site, and a random guy was complaining in the comments about the fact that so much women's literature focused on NC/R.

"Why do women read so many books and act like they secretly want to get raped?" he lamented. "I've had girlfriends in the past who were into that shit. I thought it was disgusting and pathetic. What is wrong with women?" (paraphrased)

I was considering discussing my normal talking points about forbidden desire and the thrill of relinquishing control, but instead I just swiped to the next video (represented here in several screenshots):



The video is a scene where a lone soldier makes a glorious, final stand against the enemy in WW1 (set to that beautiful, orchestral cover of Like A Prayer).

I couldn't have asked for a better analogy.

Clearly, this video is postulating the idea that men fantasize about the idea of dying in a bloody battle in service to their country/loved ones/etc.

Now I ask: do normal, mentally healthy men actually want to die a violent death? I don't really think so.

In the exact same vein: do we actually want to get raped? Obviously not, and yet, for similar reasons as the previous example, we may find an idea thrilling, even if the actual experience would be nightmarishly terrifying.

---

Now, I can already hear the counter-arguments warming up, so let me cut off a few ahead of time.

"Fantasizing about killing in self defense is different than rape fantasies, because self defense is good while rape is bad!"

This is absolutely true; however, in order to start your hero fantasy, you must first fantasize that someone is threatening to hurt you or your family. Wouldn't it be better just to fantasize about having a perfect, mundane life free of threats or tragedy?

But nobody does that.

Similarly, if I fantasize about getting ravished by a handsome man, that doesn't mean I'd be okay with sexual assault in real life.

"Some women have actually suffered sexual assault, and they find those stories disgusting!"

Some men have lived through war and have PTSD. Saving Private Ryan allegedly was horrifying to some veterans who've seen it. That doesn't make it a bad movie, nor does it mean that we should stop making similar films.

---

Finally, I'll toss out this final thought, as I always do.

Real life rape is evil, and I would not be opposed to violent rapists receiving harsher punishments in this country, up to and including medical castration or the death penalty.

So if the real life horrors of sexual assault are extreme enough to prevent you from enjoying the fantasy in fiction, I don't hope you'll change.

I appreciate the fact that you hate abuse, and I'll chock that up as a net benefit for society. But I still hope you'll understand the reasons why I can enjoy stories with those elements, presented in a fictitious manner.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I think in both male and female cases you're mentioning here, we're in the realm of fantasy and role play. I did do a story once in NC/R that was purely a role play, and a rather comical one at that. The guy in it specifically mentions the warfare analogy you brought up. I think he was influenced by the war movies of the 1940s to the 1960s which, with some exceptions, presented a sanitized version of war.

I think most adults should be able to tell the difference between fantasy and reality. It is true that many movies and TV shows did and still do cater to the fantasies that people have. I think it's often just below the consciousness of the audience. That's why there are so many car chases, for example, that are utterly unrealistic.

Like a Prayer with World War I theme? It sounds like a terrible idea unless it was meant to be a kind of joke.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

With the caveat that I don't really get that kind of literature, I think it has more to do with a culture where women are more constrained in their sexual desires.
"Good girls don't do that..." and so forth. So there is a certain thrill to not being in control, because it means not being responsible, shedding the societal baggage.
In most of that literature there is more of a aspect of sexual gratification for the women than exists in real cases of sexual assault for the most part. It isn't about wanting to be assaulted, but about shedding the societal constraints.

For men, it isn't about wanting to die, but about wanting to die heroically.

The Alamo, Thermopylae, Roarke's Drift, Cameron, Shiroyama... those heroic last stands are the stuff of legends. We are still talking about them, writing books about them, making movies about them centuries afterwards.
There is a certain primal attraction to that.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

I think most adults should be able to tell the difference between fantasy and reality. It is true that many movies and TV shows did and still do cater to the fantasies that people have. I think it's often just below the consciousness of the audience. That's why there are so many car chases, for example, that are utterly unrealistic.

Like a Prayer with World War I theme? It sounds like a terrible idea unless it was meant to be a kind of joke.

I agree.

So the Like a Prayer sample was the ending portion of the song, in that same orchestral cover that I've seen used in similar video clips. Iirc, it's the same version used in the climax of that newest Deadpool movie... so I think it's more about the music rather than lyrics.

So there is a certain thrill to not being in control, because it means not being responsible, shedding the societal baggage.

It isn't about wanting to be assaulted, but about shedding the societal constraints.

Yes. You nailed it.

I considered highlighting this idea in my original post, but I felt my post was getting to be too long as it was lol

 

[WittyUserName]

Okay so I know we have this discussion/argument all the time, and nobody's opinion ever changes (which is perfectly fine). However, I had some new insight I thought I might share.

I was on a different site, and a random guy was complaining in the comments about the fact that so much women's literature focused on NC/R.

"Why do women read so many books and act like they secretly want to get raped?" he lamented. "I've had girlfriends in the past who were into that shit. I thought it was disgusting and pathetic. What is wrong with women?" (paraphrased)

I was considering discussing my normal talking points about forbidden desire and the thrill of relinquishing control, but instead I just swiped to the next video (represented here in several screenshots):

View attachment 2560255View attachment 2560259View attachment 2560257View attachment 2560258

The video is a scene where a lone soldier makes a glorious, final stand again the enemy in WW1 (set to that beautiful, orchestral cover of Like A Prayer).

I couldn't have asked for a better analogy.

Clearly, this video is postulating the idea that men fantasize about the idea of dying in a bloody battle in service to their country/loved ones/etc.

Now I ask: do normal, mentally healthy men actually want to die a violent death? I don't really think so.

In the exact same vein: do we actually want to get raped? Obviously not, and yet, for similar reasons as the previous example, we may find an idea thrilling, even if the actual experience would be nightmarishly terrifying.

---

Now, I can already hear the counter-arguments warming up, so let me cut off a few ahead of time.

"Fantasizing about killing in self defense is different than rape fantasies, because self defense is good while rape is bad!"

This is absolutely true; however, in order to start your hero fantasy, you must first fantasize that someone is threatening to hurt you or your family. Wouldn't it be better just to fantasize about having a perfect, mundane life free of threats or tragedy?

But nobody does that.

Similarly, if I fantasize about getting ravished by a handsome man, that doesn't mean I'd be okay with sexual assault in real life.

"Some women have actually suffered sexual assault, and they find those stories disgusting!"

Some men have lived through war and have PTSD. Saving Private Ryan allegedly was horrifying to some veterans who've seen it. That doesn't make it a bad movie, nor does it mean that we should stop making similar films.

---

Finally, I'll toss out this final thought, as I always do.

Real life rape is evil, and I would not be opposed to violent rapists receiving harsher punishments in this country, up to and including medical castration or the death penalty.

So if the real life horrors of sexual assault are extreme enough to prevent you from enjoying the fantasy in fiction, I don't hope you'll change.

I appreciate the fact that you hate abuse, and I'll chock that up as a net benefit for society. But I still hope you'll understand the reasons why I can enjoy stories with those elements, presented in a fictitious manner.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with having a dark fantasy life. It does NOT mean you'd ever do anything like that in real life. I can understand people who have experienced horrible things would want to avoid triggers, but that's why the Nonconsent/Reluctance category exists. If you see something in the category, it probably isn't for you.

I did have a rapist in one of my series, and it caused a LOT of backlash. And the rapist was/is meant to be a villain to be defeated, rather than writing to have the act be something fantasized about. I think my big mistake was not putting a trigger warning in, which I later did. Although, negative feedback still trickles in(as recently as a few days ago for something posted two years ago).

Obviously this is a private site, and free speech doesn't apply. I'm definitely against censoring dark fantasy content like that, because it'll never stop. The best option is probably trigger warnings so that someone knows what they're getting into and can choose to say 'not for me.' It'll never stop the negative feedback, but it's something.

As to why a woman might have dark fantasies about being controlled? Hard to say, I'm hardly a psychiatrist and I'm not a woman. I don't think there's anything wrong with them if they are, just like I don't think there's anything wrong with finding that content repulsive. To each their own, and as long as it's acknowledged such behavior would NEVER be okay in real life, I don't see an issue with it existing.

 

[Levorotatory]

With the caveat that I don't really get that kind of literature, I think it has more to do with a culture where women are more constrained in their sexual desires.
"Good girls don't do that..." and so forth. So there is a certain thrill to not being in control, because it means not being responsible, shedding the societal baggage.
In most of that literature there is more of a aspect of sexual gratification for the women than exists in real cases of sexual assault for the most part. It isn't about wanting to be assaulted, but about shedding the societal constraints.

The societal baggage could be thought of as a modifier of a core fantasy of being irresistible to someone you are attracted to. For women who feel that there is an expectation to say no even when you really want to say yes, someone who finds you irresistible could be someone who doesn't take no for an answer. For men in an environment where women are expected to be gatekeepers, someone who finds you irresistible could be someone who violates the protocol by skipping the whole coy act and just offers themselves to you. The latter is a common fantasy for men.

 

[Robin_Starveling]

No sane soldier craves a glorious death on the battlefield (unless he comes from a culture that worships death). The common mindset is: if we must die, it had better be for a great cause.

As for the remaining subjects, I’m going to throw in some unorthodox argument - not necessarily my own - just to stir things up.

Just like those cucks who get off watching their hotwives get gangbanged and crave sloppy seconds are nothing more than closeted gays living out their fantasies vicariously, too afraid to face themselves in the mirror, so are the NC/R fans: nothing more than self-loathing wretches dressing up their pathological craving for self-destruction, degradation, and ultimate dehumanization as a sexual fantasy about “losing control.”

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Hi, M. Back again to stir the pot?

Much has been said on this topic, but I don't mind repeating some key points. It all comes down to the sexualization of rape. I see two aspects that make rape stories problematic. And just to be clear, I mean rape stories only, not the Reluctance or the CNC. I see no problem with the latter two.

1. We all agree that rape, maiming, torture, and murder are horrible things, right? But you see, out of all those things, sexualized rape is the only one that's allowed on Lit. Sexualized maiming or murder (basically snuff stories) aren't allowed. So in that sense, the NC category suffers from being the only extreme type of content that's allowed to be sexualized and published on Lit. It's only natural that it attracts controversy and flak.
Bestiality, for example, isn't allowed, and for the life of me, I can't imagine how exactly having your dog or horse happily hump you is worse than raping a person. So, as you see, once again, NC is the outlier in every sense.

2. This is more of my personal thing. I believe we should have the freedom of speech. I believe we should be able to write about all the nice and horrible things out there.
We should be allowed to write about torture, war, rape, murder, all the heinous acts that do happen in real life, whether we like it or not. But, IMO, we should also have an ethical, not really an obligation, but responsibility to paint such horrible things accordingly. If we write about war and death and murder, then show them for the horror that they are, don't paint them with roses.
And this is where my problem with Lit's version of rape stories lies. Lit requires that a victim of rape has to feel pleasure in order for the story to be allowed. And that sexualizes rape, which in turn means painting it with roses.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

2. This is more of my personal thing. I believe we should have the freedom of speech. I believe we should be able to write about all the nice and horrible things out there.
We should be allowed to write about torture, war, rape, murder, all the heinous acts that do happen in real life, whether we like it or not.

You can. Elsewhere. Some place that isn't about erotica and enjoyment of fun and kinky things.

 

[KittyOfSteele]

Just to clarify:

• Medical castration doesn't stop rape. Rapists will always find a way to keep committing the crime. Besides, this also implies that all rapists are men. I've dealt with sexual assault cases where the rapist in particular was a woman.
• While rape has a sexual component to it, it is more of a crime of control rather than a sex crime. Psychology of rape is about controlling the victim.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

The societal baggage could be thought of as a modifier of a core fantasy of being irresistible to someone you are attracted to. For women who feel that there is an expectation to say no even when you really want to say yes, someone who finds you irresistible could be someone who doesn't take no for an answer. For men in an environment where women are expected to be gatekeepers, someone who finds you irresistible could be someone who violates the protocol by skipping the whole coy act and just offers themselves to you. The latter is a common fantasy for men.

True, and there are other levels to the desire to be "irresistible". I suspect that drives the kink some women have to flirt with married men.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Some pretty solid research has suggested that something like two-thirds of women either have or have had some sort of rape fantasy. Certainly that doesn't mean a desire to actually be raped. Similarly, the 'glorious death' fantasy, I suspect without ever having seen any evidence or research, is probably popular among men - and I'll be darned if I can understand why. Certainly, I've never met a soldier who wanted to die in battle. George Patton once said that he wanted to die by the last bullet fired in the last battle of the last war. Soon after saying this, he died in a car crash.

People is funny.

 

[SimonDoom]

This is chapter 9,542 in "People trying to make sense of other people's kinks." It's a fruitless endeavor, but there's an endless appetite for it.

It's very simple. Nonconsent fantasies, whatever you think of them, are extremely popular among women, and I guess among men, too. People want to read these stories. Literotica exists to provide a platform for people to read stories based on fantasies they enjoy. It carves out a few narrow exceptions of stories it doesn't want to host, and allows the rest. It's giving the market what it wants.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

This is chapter 9,542 in "People trying to make sense of other people's kinks." It's a fruitless endeavor, but there's an endless appetite for it.

It's very simple. Nonconsent fantasies, whatever you think of them, are extremely popular among women, and I guess among men, too. People want to read these stories. Literotica exists to provide a platform for people to read stories based on fantasies they enjoy. It carves out a few narrow exceptions of stories it doesn't want to host, and allows the rest. It's giving the market what it wants.

Well, when you are writing about kinks I think it's natural to want to understand them. Most of us write kinks we don't have, and trying to understand your character's motivations is central to making them feel real.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Time is a flat circle.

 

[AG31]

Okay so I know we have this discussion/argument all the time, and nobody's opinion ever changes (which is perfectly fine). However, I had some new insight I thought I might share.

I was on a different site, and a random guy was complaining in the comments about the fact that so much women's literature focused on NC/R.

"Why do women read so many books and act like they secretly want to get raped?" he lamented. "I've had girlfriends in the past who were into that shit. I thought it was disgusting and pathetic. What is wrong with women?" (paraphrased)

I was considering discussing my normal talking points about forbidden desire and the thrill of relinquishing control, but instead I just swiped to the next video (represented here in several screenshots):

View attachment 2560255View attachment 2560259View attachment 2560257View attachment 2560258

The video is a scene where a lone soldier makes a glorious, final stand again the enemy in WW1 (set to that beautiful, orchestral cover of Like A Prayer).

I couldn't have asked for a better analogy.

Clearly, this video is postulating the idea that men fantasize about the idea of dying in a bloody battle in service to their country/loved ones/etc.

Now I ask: do normal, mentally healthy men actually want to die a violent death? I don't really think so.

In the exact same vein: do we actually want to get raped? Obviously not, and yet, for similar reasons as the previous example, we may find an idea thrilling, even if the actual experience would be nightmarishly terrifying.

---

Now, I can already hear the counter-arguments warming up, so let me cut off a few ahead of time.

"Fantasizing about killing in self defense is different than rape fantasies, because self defense is good while rape is bad!"

This is absolutely true; however, in order to start your hero fantasy, you must first fantasize that someone is threatening to hurt you or your family. Wouldn't it be better just to fantasize about having a perfect, mundane life free of threats or tragedy?

But nobody does that.

Similarly, if I fantasize about getting ravished by a handsome man, that doesn't mean I'd be okay with sexual assault in real life.

"Some women have actually suffered sexual assault, and they find those stories disgusting!"

Some men have lived through war and have PTSD. Saving Private Ryan allegedly was horrifying to some veterans who've seen it. That doesn't make it a bad movie, nor does it mean that we should stop making similar films.

---

Finally, I'll toss out this final thought, as I always do.

Real life rape is evil, and I would not be opposed to violent rapists receiving harsher punishments in this country, up to and including medical castration or the death penalty.

So if the real life horrors of sexual assault are extreme enough to prevent you from enjoying the fantasy in fiction, I don't hope you'll change.

I appreciate the fact that you hate abuse, and I'll chock that up as a net benefit for society. But I still hope you'll understand the reasons why I can enjoy stories with those elements, presented in a fictitious manner.

Excellent articulation of something I think about a lot. I'm female, but my whole life I've been drawn to stories of heroic self-sacrifice, usually on the part of a male. I've also had fantasies about being sexually dominated. Up until about four years ago the MC of my fantasy would be a woman/me. About four years ago this shifted to having male MCs.

Anyway, I became very intrigued by what held these two interests together, heroic self sacrifice and sexual submission with dignity. I don't have the anwer yet, but maybe I'll get some clues in this thread.

Note: I have not scintilla of interest in acting out this sexual thing in real life. I'm so vanilla you could eat me with a spoon. To support your thesis.

 

[AG31]

Anyway, I became very intrigued by what held these two interests together, heroic self sacrifice and sexual submission with dignity. I don't have the anwer yet, but maybe I'll get some clues in this thread.

Well, I've read the thread, and don't see anyone addressing what these two things have in common. Ideas anyone?

 

[bestkeptsecret678]

Well, when you are writing about kinks I think it's natural to want to understand them. Most of us write kinks we don't have, and trying to understand your character's motivations is central to making them feel real.

My worst rated stories here all involve a kink with which I’m personally unfamiliar. While it was fun to explore it in this format, I would have been better served to do more homework first. I’m willing to bet, there’s a helpful resource on Lit to coach us up on any literary path we might want to venture down.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Well, I've read the thread, and don't see anyone addressing what these two things have in common. Ideas anyone?

I have those same interests, more or less, and I've woven them into my stories. What do they have in common? I think that one of the threads that connects those two would be giving. Heroes give, and subs give. Doms take. It's a simplified concept, the way I'm putting it, but it's there, I think.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Well, I've read the thread, and don't see anyone addressing what these two things have in common. Ideas anyone?

I'm not sure there is a truly solid connection between the two, beyond the obvious recognition that we can fantasize about something we don't actually want, or at least recognize that we are fantasizing about an idealized version of something. And it feels really weird to say that in this context.

It's fun to day dream about being a pirate, but people don't really want to live on a wooden boat, baking in the Caribbean heat, getting scurvy, no dental care.... and on and on.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

It's fun to day dream about being a pirate, but people don't really want to live on a wooden boat, baking in the Caribbean heat, getting scurvy, no dental care.... and on and on.

It's an escapism of a sort, for sure, yet there's more to it than that. Such fantasies are often an outlet for idealism that can't find its place in the real world.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

It's an escapism of a sort, for sure, yet there's more to it than that. Such fantasies are often an outlet for idealism that can't find its place in the real world.

I think that escapism explains why men want to go out in a blaze of glory. All your problems are over, and everyone remembers you as a hero.
Not a bad way to end your story.

Not sure how, if at all that relates to the other half of this discussion.

 

[AG31]

I have those same interests, more or less, and I've woven them into my stories. What do they have in common? I think that one of the threads that connects those two would be giving. Heroes give, and subs give. Doms take. It's a simplified concept, the way I'm putting it, but it's there, I think.

There's a glimmer of possibility here!

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I think that escapism explains why men want to go out in a blaze of glory. All your problems are over, and everyone remembers you as a hero.
Not a bad way to end your story.

Not sure how, if at all that relates to the other half of this discussion.

I don't think that being dominant or submissive means the same thing for every person who fantasizes about it, but for some, it could be that being submissive is also an escapism. You surrender the control, but also the burden of having to decide anything. You just let the other person lead and make decisions for you. It's what religion does for some people as well.

 

[AG31]

I have those same interests, more or less, and I've woven them into my stories. What do they have in common? I think that one of the threads that connects those two would be giving. Heroes give, and subs give. Doms take. It's a simplified concept, the way I'm putting it, but it's there, I think.

So I went off to read some of your stories, in spite of having skipped them before because of this note I made, "He said he hadn't read my stories because he looked at the tags and isn't into bondage and nudity." But I'm afraid I skipped them again because I stay away from multi-part stories on screens. And I'm not into magic. But I am interested in your sensibility.