Acceptable Male Desire

[ericalauren]

There are more than two sexes and there are more than two genders. The problem with pictures of people’s chests and/or genitals is that they should not be forced on someone. I’ve received one unsolicited vulva picture and maybe one hundred unsolicited penis pictures (including when I was a child, which is disgraceful).

 

[big_cane_sugar]

Things aren't symmetrical.

Plenty of women's desires are also not much appreciated in society. Basically that's what the loving wives category is all about. I'm pretty sure that if some kind of goddess snapped her fingers and we suddenly all knew the truth about everyone's secret desires, the women's would shock most people more than the men's would. Also if we suddenly found out the truth about who has slept with whom and who has propositioned whom, the women's behavior would shock most people (including at least some other women) a lot more than the men's would. Women generally don't want to get a slutty reputation, which is very understandable, so they rarely feel completely free to be honest (even with themselves) about things they want to do or have done. A lot of people have been taken in by the act.

OTOH, women are essentially never a physical threat to men, so unless they're doing something to children, nothing they ever do will be creepy in the way that an average man's actions can be.

 

[iwatchus]

OTOH, women are essentially never a physical threat to men

This is patently false. I was on the jury for a murder trial where she was stronger and taller and attacked him with a knife. And a co-worker lost a best friend when his wife literally beat him to death.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Yep. I'm pathetic. Thanks all. 2 1/2 years of struggling. Not belonging to a group of writers clique, not noticed by other authors, hit and miss by readers, teaching out and no one responding. Some community here at LitE. I'm trying to establish relationships with other writers. The wrong way? Maybe. It's not your rep, it's mine. Remember that as you insult me.

You may have been on Lit for 2 1/2 years, but the only time you've asked for story feedback on the Story Feedback forum was last Friday. That post gave readers very little to work with - how are people supposed to tell you why your stories are being misinterpreted when you don't link the stories or give any info on how they're being misinterpreted? And despite that, several people still made a good-faith effort to asnwer the question as best they could within the very limited information they had.

This isn't a perfect place, but before assuming you're being excluded by cliques you might want to look at asking for help in the place that's set up for writers to ask for help, in a way that actually makes it possible for people to help you.

 

[big_cane_sugar]

This is patently false. I was on the jury for a murder trial where she was stronger and taller and attacked him with a knife. And a co-worker lost a best friend when his wife literally beat him to death.

My biological mother shot and killed my biological father while he slept, so I do understand these things happen.

And yet, as a guy only maybe just a tiny bit bigger than an average guy, I cannot recall a time in my adult life where I thought, "Now here's a woman who could kill me with her bare hands."

Also, women have sexually assaulted me a few times, in the sense that they've initiated and persisted in touching and groping and such that I didn't want and told them not to do, but I've never felt physically threatened. Like I knew I could push them off by sheer force if I had to. If a dude 3 inches taller and 25 pounds heavier than me did the same thing to me, I'd feel very different.

 

[iwatchus]

I grant it is far more common for men to physically threaten and intimidate women than the other way around but to say that the other essentially does not exist is to deny many people’s reality

 

[big_cane_sugar]

I grant it is far more common for men to physically threaten and intimidate women than the other way around but to say that the other essentially does not exist is to deny many people’s reality

The "far more common" is common enough that it makes almost any woman's sexual desires far less physically threatening to almost any man than almost any man's desires could be to almost any woman.

In addition to the asymmetry in terms of the risk of pregnancy.

 

[big_cane_sugar]

... and how one might weave an acceptable version of that male desire into a story.

Thinking about this seriously, my first guess is that basically there just has to be consent. With that, any desire is acceptable.

I would be surprised if there has never been a couple who enjoyed the lady going outside and watching through a window as her gentleman pleasured himself, both of them pretending to be unaware of the other. That's probably a random Tuesday afternoon for a lot of people out there.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Speaking in generalities, and that's what drives society, men are for more visual creatures than women when we are talking about sex and relationships.
Men watch porn, women read romance novels.
There's a reason for that.
Women are more influenced by emotion, and you don't get that from seeing some guy wave his penis around.
Meanwhile men are just happy to see boobs.

 

[OffNSFW]

Men are men, women are "females."

 

[Cultivateddesires]

Golly, if I have to build emotional into it that will take ages to get right.

 

[TheLobster]

This is patently false. I was on the jury for a murder trial where she was stronger and taller and attacked him with a knife. And a co-worker lost a best friend when his wife literally beat him to death.

Yeah, and not to mention that a woman can escalate violence almost without limits -- maybe stopping short of actual murder -- and when authorities arrive she can effectively hide behind the "women are never a physical threat" stereotype and get away unscathed (or even get the man in trouble instead). Happens all the time with domestic violence.

 

[YDB95]

In a story, the site of a lady naked in a window pleasuring herself is likely to lead to an encounter.

The sight of a man doing the same … somebody calls the police.

Not denying that a double standard exists, but in real life that scenario would likely lead to both genders being arrested.

 

[iwatchus]

The "far more common" is common enough that it makes almost any woman's sexual desires far less physically threatening to almost any man than almost any man's desires could be to almost any woman.

In addition to the asymmetry in terms of the risk of pregnancy.

My concern with the leap to unusual to essentially non-existent is continuing the mythos that it is non-existent. The friend of the co-worker who got beaten to death by his wife? My co-worker had been trying to talk him into leaving her, but it was almost identical to the stereotypical (and way too often true) abusive husband that wife won't leave, with the expected roles reversed. One of his excuses for not leaving? No one would believe him.

When I was on the jury for the murder trial, some of the older jurors (of both genders) refused to believe that a women could be abusing her husband. I chuckle to myself now, because some of those "older" jurors were certainly younger than I was then. But they simply refused to accept that it was possible.

It is absolutely assymetic, but to deny the problem exists endangers people and I have become very sensitive to that because of these incidents in my life. It may be part of why I find @NuclearFairy Neptune's Blessing to be so worth reading.

The pregnancy issue is, outside of a silly Arnie movie, purely assymetric. Unless you are writing for NonHuman or SF&F, like Ms Fairy, that is.

 

[SimonDoom]

It's all a matter of power imbalance.

If I were strolling through a park and an attractive woman opened her raincoat and revealed her nude body to me, I wouldn't worry about being raped. I'd be delighted.

A woman being confronted by a nude man has an understandable reason to be afraid. That's just reality. I think this dichotomy in how we perceive this reflects the reality, so to that extent it's not really "unfair," although it might seem that way to the male exhibitionist who has no intent other than to be an exhibitionist.

I think Lovecraft has a point, too. Almost everybody loves the sight of naked women, or is at worst indifferent to them. But many or most people, including many heterosexual women, don't find the male body attractive to the same degree. Or, they may find it attractive, but the idea of suddently being confronted by one in the park isn't a fantasy.

 

[SissyBrandi19]

I have been ruminating on the unfair split between male and female desire.

Male perversion and or arousal is seen as unwelcome. The dirty anorak brigade.

Whereas females get away with it.

In a story, the site of a lady naked in a window pleasuring herself is likely to lead to an encounter.

The sight of a man doing the same … somebody calls the police.

I am curious about this dichotomy and how one might weave an acceptable version of that male desire into a story.

I would say this is a false dichotomy. I'm saying that as a CD sissy gurl. It's a false dichotomy. Sexual pleasure is infinitely more interesting and complex. I'm living proof.

 

[EmilyMiller]

A woman being confronted by a nude man has an understandable reason to be afraid.

And this is not because the man is bigger or stronger than the woman, he may not be. It’s because the appalling actions of some men are very well established (not all men, far from all men, but way too many men). It’s not a size and strength dichotomy, it’s a behavioral dichotomy.

An experience and data-based risk assessment (something which is second nature to us) says ‘he could be a threat. It could be bad.’ Such a conclusion is not baseless, it’s rooted in the personal experience of many women, and the collective experience of all women.

 

[SimonDoom]

And this is not because the man is bigger or stronger than the woman, he may not be. It’s because the appalling actions of some men are very well established (not all men, far from all men, but way too many men). It’s not a size and strength dichotomy, it’s a behavioral dichotomy.

An experience and data-based risk assessment (something which is second nature to us) says ‘he could be a threat. It could be bad.’ Such a conclusion is not baseless, it’s rooted in the personal experience of many women, and the collective experience of all women.

Yes, I think that's right. If I saw a bodybuilding Amazon woman who was bigger and taller than I expose herself to me in the park, it still wouldn't scare me. It's not about the size, although I think the fact that men are generally considerably bigger and stronger than women plays a part in shaping the male-female dynamic in the first place.

 

[NuclearFairy]

Yeah, and not to mention that a woman can escalate violence almost without limits -- maybe stopping short of actual murder -- and when authorities arrive she can effectively hide behind the "women are never a physical threat" stereotype and get away unscathed (or even get the man in trouble instead). Happens all the time with domestic violence.

My younger brother went to jail several times because of this, and he's the one that called the cops the first time.

But, when it comes to exposing yourself, the double standards exist for reasons that have very little if anything to do with DV.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

And this is not because the man is bigger or stronger than the woman, he may not be. It’s because the appalling actions of some men are very well established (not all men, far from all men, but way too many men). It’s not a size and strength dichotomy, it’s a behavioral dichotomy.

An experience and data-based risk assessment (something which is second nature to us) says ‘he could be a threat. It could be bad.’ Such a conclusion is not baseless, it’s rooted in the personal experience of many women, and the collective experience of all women.

This is it. I've spent a lot of my life around drunk queer women who get a bit reckless. And my ability to fight anyone off isn't great - probably half of women could overpower me if they tried. But apart from maybe one or two women reaching out and making a hug a bit handsy, none have ever tried groping me without consent, 'accidentally' ordering a drink with extra vodka, picking me up to move me somewhere, sticking their hands on my lap, let alone any serious sexual assault. Nor have any followed up their leers and licking their lips with telling me they're going to rape me after I shake my head or express disinterest. Not one.

As opposed to that happening at least weekly when I was 15 to 21, leers, chatting up and groping being near-daily, from men. And it's more about power than sex - hence dropping off instantly once girls grow up and master resting bitch face. Or the men in certain gay pubs squeezing my arse and tits more than anyone else. If called out, it would be "It's OK, love, I'm gay!" "Are you, aye? So why are you trying to get your hand in my cunt?"

It's one thing I fucking love about being 50 - I'm now mostly invisible to those kinds of men. It's got a lot better for young women in public. but in private there seems to be as much domestic violence as ever - maybe people are just more willing to talk about it? (Yes, domestic violence happens to men too, mostly in mutually dysfunctional couples, but for sure the death rates are way disproportional)

So yeah, I'm not going to be scared of a drunk women's rugby team, even an all-queer one, whereas a drunk men's team is terrifying, going on past experience.

 

[EmilyMiller]

This is it. I've spent a lot of my life around drunk queer women who get a bit reckless. And my ability to fight anyone off isn't great - probably half of women could overpower me if they tried. But apart from maybe one or two women reaching out and making a hug a bit handsy, none have ever tried groping me without consent, 'accidentally' ordering a drink with extra vodka, picking me up to move me somewhere, sticking their hands on my lap, let alone any serious sexual assault. Nor have any followed up their leers and licking their lips with telling me they're going to rape me after I shake my head or express disinterest. Not one.

As opposed to that happening at least weekly when I was 15 to 21, leers, chatting up and groping being near-daily, from men. And it's more about power than sex - hence dropping off instantly once girls grow up and master resting bitch face. Or the men in certain gay pubs squeezing my arse and tits more than anyone else. If called out, it would be "It's OK, love, I'm gay!" "Are you, aye? So why are you trying to get your hand in my cunt?"

It's one thing I fucking love about being 50 - I'm now mostly invisible to those kinds of men. It's got a lot better for young women in public. but in private there seems to be as much domestic violence as ever - maybe people are just more willing to talk about it? (Yes, domestic violence happens to men too, mostly in mutually dysfunctional couples, but for sure the death rates are way disproportional)

So yeah, I'm not going to be scared of a drunk women's rugby team, even an all-queer one, whereas a drunk men's team is terrifying, going on past experience.

 

[policywank]

I have been ruminating on the unfair split between male and female desire.

Male perversion and or arousal is seen as unwelcome. The dirty anorak brigade.

Whereas females get away with it.

In a story, the site of a lady naked in a window pleasuring herself is likely to lead to an encounter.

The sight of a man doing the same … somebody calls the police.

I am curious about this dichotomy and how one might weave an acceptable version of that male desire into a story.

If you are talking about someone exposing themselves in a context where they know they will or may be seen, I don't really see it as a matter of fairness. It is a matter of what people, in particular the opposite sex, find appealing. The fact that men are inclined to want to see an attractive woman exposing herself whereas woman are far less inclined to want to see a man exposing himself comes down to what the beholder finds appealing.

If you find an attractive woman exposing herself to be appealing, but it is not appealing to see an overweight ugly poorly groomed woman exposing herself are you being unfair? Is the attractive woman getting away with something? Or is the appeal simply different and an honest reflection of what you find appealing?

Now if I intruded on a man masturbating or exposing himself in a setting where he had a reasonable expectation of privacy, it would be unfair of me to be critical.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Yeah, and not to mention that a woman can escalate violence almost without limits -- maybe stopping short of actual murder -- and when authorities arrive she can effectively hide behind the "women are never a physical threat" stereotype and get away unscathed (or even get the man in trouble instead). Happens all the time with domestic violence.

My younger brother went to jail several times because of this, and he's the one that called the cops the first time.

That's one reason why I won't have anything to do with kids, like be a school bus driver. They can say anything they want and you have little to no defense.

 

[EmilyMiller]

If you are talking about someone exposing themselves in a context where they know they will or may be seen, I don't really see it as a matter of fairness. It is a matter of what people, in particular the opposite sex, find appealing. The fact that men are inclined to want to see an attractive woman exposing herself whereas woman are far less inclined to want to see a man exposing himself comes down to what the beholder finds appealing.

If you find an attractive woman exposing herself to be appealing, but it is not appealing to see an overweight ugly poorly groomed woman exposing herself are you being unfair? Is the attractive woman getting away with something? Or is the appeal simply different and an honest reflection of what you find appealing?

Now if I intruded on a man masturbating or exposing himself in a setting where he had a reasonable expectation of privacy, it would be unfair of me to be critical.

The premise of the OP’s post is deeply flawed and seems to be more rooted in baseless resentment, and / or outdated stereotypes, than any actual problem.

The world is plagued by legions of women exposing themselves and getting away with it apparently .

The undercurrent is, it’s so unfair (his word) to be a guy. Really?

 

[SimonDoom]

I'd probably tweak the OP's thread title, from "Unacceptable Male Desire" to "Unacceptable Male Behavior." People don't object to the desire. This is a place where you express your dirty, perverted desires through fantasy stories at will, subject to a few limits (which don't apply in this case, because exhibitionism is fine as long as kids aren't involved). It's behavior that's the problem.

In one way men have it easier than women do. They can bare their chests in public with impunity in most places and most circumstances. Women cannot.