Comments vs scoring vs Author's feelings

[pink_silk_glove]

So every time you kiss your significant other, you are comparing that kiss with every other lover you may have had? Each time you have sex, you subliminally rate that orgasm or lack of one with all your other lovers?
I don't buy it.

No, because you are not describing judgments.

 

[Gamblnluck]

You also admit in your statement that a higher rated story tends to be better "usually pretty good". Therefore you equate a higher score with a better story. This is the comparison that you are making when you see the score. You compare the higher score to your experience in reading higher scored stories in the past and judge that this story is more likely to be a better one than to be a poorer one.

And even if we do not equate any story or writing quality to scores, the score itself has its own merit. Which is a better score, 4.39 or 4.69? Why, 4.69 of course. That;s obvious. Why? Because compared to 4.39, 4.69 is higher. That is the measurement.

But the stories might not be any better to you. You might not like the story. And then you have to ask the reason of why did you give it a four instead of a five. Most readers would not care if a story is 4.4 or 4.6. They'd read both or either over a rating of 3 if they had only so much time and had to pick one or two.
Now if I see a story in LW with a score over 4, I am going to read it. A score of a 4 in BDSM is meaningless. At the same time, if I see a score of 3.5 in LW, I may read it, but would pass on that same score in BDSM.
That is if I was looking at a list of stories to read.

 

[Gamblnluck]

No, because you are not describing judgments.

Sure I am. Liking or not is a judgment. The same as my laughter description at a comedy show. A score is simply awarding your approval, like laughing or a more deliberate activity, applause. You might laugh out of reflex but applause is a conscious 'rating'.
What you basically said before (or seemed to) is that every experience is a comparison to all others. If you attach a score to that experience, it is a quantitative comparison.
I personally think people respond more to feelings of the moment. You like your story (or chances are you would not have expended time and effort on it). You want approval. Comparing that approval, especially across categories is not accurate. And it is not exactly a comparison with other stories but how you resonated with that subset of readers who did take the time to read your effort.
Now the question you have to ask yourself is why did you get the score you did.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I disagree. IMHO an artist's greatest reward is seducing feelings (positive and negative) out of another person.

In what way do you want a negative reaction? Yes certain characters will evoke that response. But for the overall story to do that???? No. At the end you want the reader to tell you through their score that you touched them and they enjoyed the experience.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

But the stories might not be any better to you. You might not like the story. And then you have to ask the reason of why did you give it a four instead of a five. Most readers would not care if a story is 4.4 or 4.6. They'd read both or either over a rating of 3 if they had only so much time and had to pick one or two.
Now if I see a story in LW with a score over 4, I am going to read it. A score of a 4 in BDSM is meaningless. At the same time, if I see a score of 3.5 in LW, I may read it, but would pass on that same score in BDSM.
That is if I was looking at a list of stories to read.

Everything that you state here is a comparison/judgment. Listen to yourself.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Sure I am. Liking or not is a judgment. The same as my laughter description at a comedy show. A score is simply awarding your approval, like laughing or a more deliberate activity, applause. You might laugh out of reflex but applause is a conscious 'rating'.

You were talking about having sex or kissing your lover. You were not talking about judging kissing or having sex with your lover. you don't even understand your own arguments. How will you understand the concepts that I am trying to teach you?

 

[MillieDynamite]

@Voboy, give up; you can't win arguing with pink. Even if you're right, she's still not wrong.

 

[MillieDynamite]

@Gamblnluck dito to what I said to @Voboy.

 

[SmilingLez]

In what way do you want a negative reaction? Yes certain characters will evoke that response. But for the overall story to do that???? No. At the end you want the reader to tell you through their score that you touched them and they enjoyed the experience.

Three stars is average - not negative.

It's obvious that the reader did not truly enjoy the story because he felt (triggered) his (culture) was marginalized/erased. Perhaps this a-ha moment for the reader will result in him doing something to make sure his community is recognized.

The bigger question - does an author write for warm fuzzies or to touch (good, bad, indifferent) their readers?

 

[MillieDynamite]

Do you all remember that thread about when you decide to bail on a thread? This one is approaching that point for me. We've shifted from discussing our thoughts on Comments vs scoring vs Author's feelings to an angry debate about comparing our work to that of other writers' works. As for myself, if a story moves me and is written well, I give it a 4 or 5. I don't mentally compare any other work to what I've just read. I never base my voting decisions on how they compare to those of Earl Stanley Gardner, Nora Roberts, or Robert Louis Stevenson. Nor do I compare them to me or any other writer on Lit. But that's me... Your experience might vary. No matter how much I love the subject matter, if it is written poorly, I give it a lower vote without any comparison whatsoever.

 

[Gamblnluck]

Three stars is average - not negative.

It's obvious that the reader did not truly enjoy the story because he felt (triggered) his (culture) was marginalized/erased. Perhaps this a-ha moment for the reader will result in him doing something to make sure his community is recognized.

The bigger question - does an author write for warm fuzzies or to touch (good, bad, indifferent) their readers?

It's to touch the readers, but I doubt any really want to do that in a bad way. That is like deliberately farting in an elevator and thinking it fun. Well, maybe that is something you think is worthwhile.

 

[Voboy]

@Voboy, give up; you can't win arguing with pink. Even if you're right, she's still not wrong.

Nah. I agreed to disagree. I'm fine with that. This isn't PSG and I's first go-round, and I get their point of view. It's becoming pedantic at this point, but it's interesting philosophically.

Sometimes I post in reply to other posters not because I want to sway them, but because this is a public discussion with a bunch of lurkers who might benefit from the response.

 

[Gamblnluck]

@Gamblnluck dito to what I said to @Voboy.

Damn Millie, you killed a fun argument with the logical statement that sometimes you just can't....

 

[MillieDynamite]

It all becomes pointless to me when one person feels their view is the only view.

Nah. I agreed to disagree. I'm fine with that. This isn't PSG and I's first go-round, and I get their point of view. It's becoming pedantic at this point, but it's interesting philosophically.

Sometimes I post in reply to other posters not because I want to sway them, but because this is a public discussion with a bunch of lurkers who might benefit from the response.

Damn Millie, you killed a fun argument with the logical statement that sometimes you just can't....

 

[AwkwardlySet]

So every time you kiss your significant other, you are comparing that kiss with every other lover you may have had? Each time you have sex, you subliminally rate that orgasm or lack of one with all your other lovers?
I don't buy it.

You are kinda missing the point here. What she is claiming is that every time you measure something, you make a comparison to something else. Kissing someone isn't taking a measure of anything. Me scratching my butt doesn't mean I am comparing it to other butts, or to other parts of my body that are less soft... err I meant firm, of course!

But you giving a 5 or 4 to some song is you measuring the song's worth/impact/beauty. In your head, you have the scale where 5 rocks, 4 is good, 3 is decent, 2 is bad, and 1 is terrible. And every time you rate any other song, you are indirectly comparing it to all the songs you have already rated.
If you keep rating, you will even start doing the comparison directly in your head. "I think that Another One Bites the Dust is a solid 4... oh wait, I've already given Hammer to Fall a 4, so meh, maybe it's a 3.5?" etc.

Obviously, there is space for debate about some aspects of PSG's claim, but her standpoint is valid.

I've had a few people tell me that I deserve much higher scores than I get. Even one of my haters has told me this.

But do I really? If we believe that the score should indicate quality of prose and/or storytelling, then we can argue yes I deserve better scores. But scores really only indicate a positive or negative reception from the readership. Scores indicate popularity, not quality - or at least quality is only indirectly indicated by it's (very low) inclusion in the readership's rubric.

You often say that your forum activity earned you some one-bombs, and since you don't get that many votes, those bombs become impactful, so your scores aren't a true measure of the popularity of what you write.
We don't really know what your scores would have been otherwise, so I don't think your argument truly stands in your own case.

 

[Gamblnluck]

What she is claiming is that every time you measure something, you make a comparison to something else.

My point was if you feel pleasure from that kiss, it is a measurement of sorts. Especially if you say 'I like it.or I love this." Not a numerical measurement but certainly a subjective one.

 

[alohadave]

What she is claiming is that every time you measure something, you make a comparison to something else.

What you are doing is comparing something to your measuring device or system.

If I measure a piece of wood with a tape measure, I'm not making a comparison to any other piece of wood, I'm comparing the wood to the tape measure.

Multiple people have stated that they are not comparing stories to each other, they are comparing each story to their own particular criteria.

But you giving a 5 or 4 to some song is you measuring the song's worth/impact/beauty. In your head, you have the scale where 5 rocks, 4 is good, 3 is decent, 2 is bad, and 1 is terrible. And every time you rate any other song, you are indirectly comparing it to all the songs you have already rated.
If you keep rating, you will even start doing the comparison directly in your head. "I think that Another One Bites the Dust is a solid 4... oh wait, I've already given Hammer to Fall a 4, so meh, maybe it's a 3.5?" etc.

Ranking is not the same as measuring.

 

[Gamblnluck]

ut you giving a 5 or 4 to some song is you measuring the song's worth/impact/beauty. In your head, you have the scale where 5 rocks, 4 is good, 3 is decent, 2 is bad, and 1 is terrible. And every time you rate any other song, you are indirectly comparing it to all the songs you have already rated.

and I wasn't giving any of those thing numbers. I simply said I enjoyed them. Same with a story. You aren't necessarily downplaying one story because you like another. You can enjoy both stories without there being a comparison between them. Or not like another story, song etc. And like I pointed out with the song idea, there is no real established reason I might like it. Beat, lyrics, the timbre of the voice perhaps. I just know I liked it or didn't.
Too many people here say, 'My story was great! My prose is eloquent, my syntax spot on. I had a good blend of sex, etc. Why did I not get praised?' Well the simple answer is you didn't hit the mark to too many readers. Not exactly a comparison between your and some other story. Perhaps between your story and what they would have like to have seen and you didn;t provide.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Three stars is average - not negative.

4.4 is average. 3 stars is way below average.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

It all becomes pointless to me when one person feels their view is the only view.

If I was arguing an opinion I would not be absolute about it. I'm not arguing an opinion. I am stating facts. This is physics. It is how the material universe works.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Ranking is not the same as measuring.

They go hand in hand. Ranking is putting things in order, which requires comparing, A before B, 1 ahead of 2 etc.

But I think you mean judging, which yes is still comparing. Why else do we judge but to see how things stack up?

Why do we votes on stories? Because we judge them better or worse than others. How many people claim that 100 stories rated 4.8 will be generally better than 100 stories rated at 4.2? This means that by and large readers believe that higher rated stories are better. Therefore, when we peruse the new lists, we compare scores of stories as a means of trying to find one that might be better.

When we vote highly, we are saying that this one is better. When we vote lowly, we are saying this one is worse. When we click on a high rated story we are thinking that this one could be better. When we pass on a low rated story we are thinking that this one could be worse. Better or worse than what? Other stories. We are comparing. We can't not compare. It is impossible.

When we see a story with a title that excites us and another story with a title that bores us, we compare boring to exciting to define the two. We can't not do this. It is how the material experience works. It is how the brain works.

But you say, "I don't compare any other stories when I give a story a 5." Yes, you do. You don't give every story that you read a 5. You gives 5s to the stories that you like because compared to the ones that you don't give 5s to, you liked it better. You can't not do this. It's physics. It's science. It's how the material universe works.

 

[Actingup]

They go hand in hand. Ranking is putting things in order, which requires comparing, A before B, 1 ahead of 2 etc.

But I think you mean judging, which yes is still comparing. Why else do we judge but to see how things stack up?

Why do we votes on stories? Because we judge them better or worse than others. How many people claim that 100 stories rated 4.8 will be generally better than 100 stories rated at 4.2? This means that by and large readers believe that higher rated stories are better. Therefore, when we peruse the new lists, we compare scores of stories as a means of trying to find one that might be better.

When we vote highly, we are saying that this one is better. When we vote lowly, we are saying this one is worse. When we click on a high rated story we are thinking that this one could be better. When we pass on a low rated story we are thinking that this one could be worse. Better or worse than what? Other stories. We are comparing. We can't not compare. It is impossible.

When we see a story with a title that excites us and another story with a title that bores us, we compare boring to exciting to define the two. We can't not do this. It is how the material experience works. It is how the brain works.

But you say, "I don't compare any other stories when I give a story a 5." Yes, you do. You don't give every story that you read a 5. You gives 5s to the stories that you like because compared to the ones that you don't give 5s to, you liked it better. You can't not do this. It's physics. It's science. It's how the material universe works.

(after skipping a few pages of this thread!) I agree with all of this, except that I would say 'like' doesn't capture all the nuance. When we vote on a story, we are also voting on whether it was worth our invested time, which is the true cost of accessing Literotica. Would we have been better off doing some knitting, or reading a book, or watching a bad Netflix adaptation of a book about knitting? Or reading somebody else's story? In that sense, we are voting on whether the story met or even exceeded our expectations, and on our own judgement in choosing that story to read. There are lot of subjectivities in there that reflect the reader's perspective rather than the absolute worth of the story, because there is no absolute worth as such. The reader is fickle and beyond the control of the author. All that said, we are still making a judgement.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

(after skipping a few pages of this thread!) I agree with all of this, except that I would say 'like' doesn't capture all the nuance. When we vote on a story, we are also voting on whether it was worth our invested time, which is the true cost of accessing Literotica. Would we have been better off doing some knitting, or reading a book, or watching a bad Netflix adaptation of a book about knitting? Or reading somebody else's story? In that sense, we are voting on whether the story met or even exceeded our expectations, and on our own judgement in choosing that story to read. There are lot of subjectivities in there that reflect the reader's perspective rather than the absolute worth of the story, because there is no absolute worth as such. The reader is fickle and beyond the control of the author. All that said, we are still making a judgement.

But we are still comparing the reading experience of that story to the criteria that we have for good stories. If it checks all the criteria, 5, if it checks most maybe 4, if it checks few ... etc.

I've never argued subjectivity/objectivity. The universe has no subjectivity. That is for us to decide, as individuals. Every one of us has different metrics for what may be good bad or in between, whether it's movies, stories, songs, restaurants, ice cream, clothes, cars, etc. But if we decide on what makes a good restaurant we compare our experience at that restaurant to our experiences at other restaurants and compare that against our own criteria for good and bad restauarnts to give a rating/judgment.

 

[Actingup]

But we are still comparing the reading experience of that story to the criteria that we have for good stories. If it checks all the criteria, 5, if it checks most maybe 4, if it checks few ... etc.

I've never argued subjectivity/objectivity. The universe has no subjectivity. That is for us to decide, as individuals. Every one of us has different metrics for what may be good bad or in between, whether it's movies, stories, songs, restaurants, ice cream, clothes, cars, etc. But if we decide on what makes a good restaurant we compare our experience at that restaurant to our experiences at other restaurants and compare that against our own criteria for good and bad restauarnts to give a rating/judgment.

Yes - I don't think we're in disagreement here - I just wanted to expand on the complexity behind 'like'. Ultimately, we're scoring a 5, a 4 or a 3 (or if Buster2U, 10 Big Blazing Stars) based on criteria that may not be obvious to the author.

 

[Tomh1966]

For mean comments. First. Over time I've changed a bit. That first insult on my first story in LW was like 'Well fuck you too.' A particularly creative insult now is like 'LOL good one. Funny I dont remember sitting in a chair jacking off while a real man fucks my wife.' Also I respect people who sign their insults more. One person takes a lot of my stories apart page by page. Gotta admire the dedication and they sign it!

Do I care about scores? Mostly yes. No lie. Do I live and die them? no. The first red H in LW hit around the same time I got my first 'natural' red H. Several stories drifted upward from 4.49 at the same time Coywolf started well above 4.5. yeah. I liked it.
I liked my first (and only) 4.6+ in LW. I'm not gonna lie.
Some day I hope I like my first 4.7 in LW.
I was disappointed in the score for Fifth Round which I though was a sure crusher. I thought it had a lot of clever callbacks and hooks. I was wrong. 4.2 is okay, but obviously I flubbed it a bit.
Then again... I 'don't get' most of the top all time LW stories. I know Im crazy, but I dont get 'The Shack' series and more recently I don't get most of the stories from Wordsinthewyld. Obviously its me because thousands love them. I can tell the writing is high quality, but don't enjoy them and I TRIED.

I liked my first 25K view story and my first 50K story. It may be a while before one drifts over 100K. I'm not even sure when my second 50K story hit that mark.

It's more a matter of 'firsts'.

Shoutout. BTW epic work on the statistics acting up!