Comments vs scoring vs Author's feelings

[alohadave]

There was a whole thread earlier about the ratios with views as the denominator

These threads are regularly recurring. If there is one thing AH'rs like to talk about it's scores and stats.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I merely find it irritating when you missed a point which I take pains to put into the story.

I seem to remember that. The point you made was a line or two that the cheated upon husband weakly and verbally protested her activities. Then he let it pass. I might go back and re-read it now.

 

[Gamblnluck]

When I first started writing here, I honestly thought scores represented the quality of writing. I almost chuckle when I think about it now, but it's probably not a stretch to say that many readers believe it is so.

And you learned it is how enjoyable the reader finds it instead. Personally, I like developed plots that create a visceral reaction. Then I like a logical resolution. (and I skip many of the categories) Others may feel differently.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I think that this is an important point, particularly for LW. We may see a story as a playful fantasy, wheras the reader might see it as a retelling of their life, hoping for a better or more savage ending.

Most of the time it is one with a fair and logical resolution. You will find reconciliation stories getting high scores and fair comments when that action is justified.

One thing you will not see rated highly no matter how well the story is crafted is one where the MC his wife kicks him in the balls (figuratively or literally), takes his money, violates his trust, cheats on him, demeans him publicly and he takes her back when her lover is finished with her "BECAUSE HE LOVES HER OH SO MUCH" or his dick got hard when he saw a video of her screwing and thinks that means he likes the idea.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Poor stories don't do near as well in LW.

Stories don't do near as well in LW unless they fit the pre-determined narrative of the LW Brigade.

A highly rated story and/or contest winner in Mature, E/V, EC or most others will get trashed in LW if 'they' don't like it.

 

[Gamblnluck]

A highly rated story and/or contest winner in Mature, E/V, EC or most others will get trashed in LW if 'they' don't like it.

The question is why don't they like it? Until you understand that, they won't. Those other categories give away those participation awards. You rarely see a score below 4 and when you do, it is not only a dog, but a diseased mongrel.

Yeah, there is a formula, raising a cock or making a pussy wet is not gonna get you a good score in LW. (and unlike what many here think, it is not violent BTB)

 

[Lifestyle66]

I seem to remember that. The point you made was a line or two that the cheated upon husband weakly and verbally protested her activities. Then he let it pass. I might go back and re-read it now.

Focus on the future, and try to read new stories more carefully. There's a lot of info in the small details you miss when skimming.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Stories don't do near as well in LW unless they fit the pre-determined narrative of the LW Brigade.

A highly rated story and/or contest winner in Mature, E/V, EC or most others will get trashed in LW if 'they' don't like it.

There is no single "LW Brigade."

LW attracts those looking for "extra-marital sex"!!!

The other category descriptions don't focus on that one thing LW readers want. They want swinger, sharing, cheating, etc and how it impacts a marriage.

Unfortunately, some (just under half) of those readers want to read about a cheating spouse getting burn! And they are VERY vocal about any cheater or swinger or shared spouse who doesn't get burned. They are very vocal about marriage being monogamous.

So, unless the story is about a good burn of the cheater, expect the rating to be about 1.0 less than in other categories. But you"ll reach a larger audience in LW.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

There is no single "LW Brigade."



Unfortunately, some (just under half)

I think you meant Under the Bridge.

 

[Lifestyle66]

I think you meant Under the Bridge.

Yeah, they're trolls. I even recognized them in my story "A Gathering of Trolls."

But they're as entitled to their opinions as everyone else. I just don't let them stop me from having my fun.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Measuring a door, like testing the temperature is not a comparison. It may have a practical reason. Nobody says, "I prefer 32 inch doors to 30 inch ones". They may need a wider door for a wheelchair though.

No, you don't understand my point. I'll say it again.

When you measure your own height, you are comparing the point is space where your feet are to the relative point in space where the top of your head is. You compare these two points to find the difference and make the measurement. It is impossible to not do this. You do not say that your head is at 6 feet. You say that your head is 6 feet higher in relation to your feet. One is a reference point for the other to compare the positions in space. You cannot make any measurement without such reference point to make the comparison.

Now, determining who is taller, Joe or Dave or Mike, is also a comparison. That we understand quite easily, but it is a separate measurement from the actual measurements themmselves.

 

[Lifestyle66]

No, you don't understand my point. I'll say it again.

When you measure your own height, you are comparing the point is space where your feet are to the relative point in space where the top of your head is. You compare these two points to find the difference and make the measurement. It is impossible to not do this. You do not say that your head is at 6 feet. You say that your head is 6 feet higher in relation to your feet. One is a reference point for the other to compare the positions in space. You cannot make any measurement without such reference point to make the comparison.

Now, determining who is taller, Joe or Dave or Mike, is also a comparison. That we understand quite easily, but it is a separate measurement from the actual measurements themmselves.

I recognize the measurement aspect.

Now to take your example to the story ratings, the average rating is one measure of the readers' reactions to your one story (the one door). You and others might take that measure to compare to other doors. But if I'm looking at various house front doors, should I include a comparison to a barn door or a linen closet door? That's comparing "apples to oranges".

You might compare the average rating of the stories within a category. But to be fair, you should sort by the story tags as well, because some of those tags act as triggers to some readers.

 

[Gamblnluck]

You cannot make any measurement without such reference point to make the comparison.

Yeah, I understood. You are are talking about making arbitrary measurements. Just assigning a number to that door with no purpose, in a void. Scoring a story is not the same. It is not exactly arbitrary and probably there is no comparison to another story. That second story is not even needed. It can serve as a tool its own.
When I see a 4, I see that enough people really enjoyed that story (giving it 4 and 5 ratings) to offset the low scores. I see it as an indicator I might want to read it. I don't think of it as a comparison to all the other stories out there.

When I see scores of less than 3, I don't bother to read them as it appears that the story did not appeal to those that bothered to read it. There may be a few who click on every story they see and give it a one or 2 just for the hell of it. But after a point, why bother?

When I see I get a 4 in LW, I know my story was enjoyed by a significant number of readers. Now in some categories, a score is meaningless. Everybody gets their participation score of 4.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Yeah, I understood. You are are talking about making arbitrary measurements. Just assigning a number to that door with no purpose, in a void. Scoring a story is not the same. It is not exactly arbitrary and probably there is no comparison to another story. That second story is not even needed. It can serve as a tool its own.

You are talking about a person casting a vote on one story. The rest of us have been talking about judging your own story by its score. These are very different.

However, even one person casting a vote on one story is still a comparison. He is comparing his reading experience to his previous reading experiences and basing that on his own criteria.

Reader Joe: He enjoyed the story but considered it not as good as his favorites, yet much better than most of the junk that he clicks on, compared to the faves and the junk, he rates this one a 4.

Reader Lisa: She thought that it was boring and thoroughly unsexy and nowhere near as good as most of the stuff that she reads so she gave it a 1.

Reader Jack: It was enough to get him to jerk off and as far as he's concerned it's just as good as all the other cool stuff that gets him to jerk off, so he rates it a 5.

These are all measurements of reader enjoyment and they are all comparisons.

 

[Gamblnluck]

The rest of us have been talking about judging your own story by its score.

That is exactly what I am talking about as well. And how I score others' work. If I see a 4, I think of the story as being good enough to resonate with the readership. It does not mean that this 4.1 rated story is better than that 4.0 rated one though. It means the readers for whatever reason liked it.
The opposite is true. If I give a story a 2 or a 3, it means I did not enjoy reading the story and I would not recommend it.

Scoring stands by itself. I use it like I would a product review before I order something online.

 

[Lifestyle66]

You are talking about a person casting a vote on one story. The rest of us have been talking about judging your own story by its score. These are very different.

However, even one person casting a vote on one story is still a comparison. He is comparing his reading experience to his previous reading experiences and basing that on his own criteria.

Reader Joe: He enjoyed the story but considered it not as good as his favorites, yet much better than most of the junk that he clicks on, compared to the faves and the junk, he rates this one a 4.

Reader Lisa: She thought that it was boring and thoroughly unsexy and nowhere near as good as most of the stuff that she reads so she gave it a 1.

Reader Jack: It was enough to get him to jerk off and as far as he's concerned it's just as good as all the other cool stuff that gets him to jerk off, so he rates it a 5.

These are all measurements of reader enjoyment and they are all comparisons.

I think you're seeing this as readers rating stories based on their enjoyment of the stories, all other things being equal.

But other things are NOT equal.

Based on the timing of rating on my stories and the comments I've received, I see that in some cases there are readers clicking on a story merely to 1-bomb it. When I post a new story to LW, I know at least the first two votes within the first 30 minutes will be 1-star. (I have some dedicated haters.) Then throughout the first two days after publication, there are LW readers who will watch the lists and after someone else gives a 5, they will add another 1.

Based on the comments I've received, some readers actually state they didn't read it all but skipped to the end to give it a 1 as soon as they reached something which triggered them.

You might write three almost identical romance stories. In one, make them a hetero couple. In the second, make it inter-racial. And in the third make them a lesbian couple. Those will NOT receive the same ratings due to the opinions of the individuals among the audience.

This is why I said earlier that to fairly compare story ratings, you need to only compare those within the same category AND those stories with at least the same tags indicating various triggers. It's like comparing doors. Only compare those doors which were made for the same purpose and contain similar design details such as having a window or not.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

That is exactly what I am talking about as well. And how I score others' work. If I see a 4, I think of the story as being good enough to resonate with the readership. It does not mean that this 4.1 rated story is better than that 4.0 rated one though. It means the readers for whatever reason liked it.
The opposite is true. If I give a story a 2 or a 3, it means I did not enjoy reading the story and I would not recommend it.

Scoring stands by itself. I use it like I would a product review before I order something online.

So then you agree that 95% of all stories on lit are generally enjoyable enough to recommend?

 

[Lifestyle66]

That is exactly what I am talking about as well. And how I score others' work. If I see a 4, I think of the story as being good enough to resonate with the readership. It does not mean that this 4.1 rated story is better than that 4.0 rated one though. It means the readers for whatever reason liked it.
The opposite is true. If I give a story a 2 or a 3, it means I did not enjoy reading the story and I would not recommend it.

Scoring stands by itself. I use it like I would a product review before I order something online.

One problem I see with your reading selection criteria and ratings is that if you read Loving Wives stories, selecting ONLY those rated 4.0 or above, most of those you read will be BTB stories. The "extra-marital fun and sharing" stories are 1-bombed by the monogamy-only faction there.

And with only those stories you selected as your sample, you might think LW is only about BTB stories, which several others here in the AH have stated as a fact. They look at the highly rated stories and assume that is all there is to that category.

EDIT: My latest LW story is rated at only 3.09. But it's not really about swingers or sharing or monogamy. It's about PTSD! Many of the readers can't get that, because they are super-focused on monogamy-only!

 

[Gamblnluck]

So then you agree that 95% of all stories on lit are generally enjoyable enough to recommend?

Nope. I think the great majority are fair at best. At least to my preferences. Most lack too much to be enjoyable reads. Many I've read I would not read again much less recommend them.
I used to read dozen a day at least.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I think you're seeing this as readers rating stories based on their enjoyment of the stories, all other things being equal.

But other things are NOT equal.

Based on the timing of rating on my stories and the comments I've received, I see that in some cases there are readers clicking on a story merely to 1-bomb it. When I post a new story to LW, I know at least the first two votes within the first 30 minutes will be 1-star. (I have some dedicated haters.) Then throughout the first two days after publication, there are LW readers who will watch the lists and after someone else gives a 5, they will add another 1.

I know that they are not equal. If you go back to my three examples, each voter has a different criteria for voting. If I would have listed 10 or more example voters, I would have included the one who used the criteria of whether or not the bitch was burned, 5 for yes and 1 for no. And it is perfectly accurate to state that the reader enjoyed the story because she was burnt, or did not enjoy it simply because she wasn't.

I also might have included the voter whose criteria is simply I hate that cunt psg, so therefore I hate all of her stories and she's getting 1s. Although this guy is likely not comparing anything since he's not measuring anything, he's just being a douchebag.

You might write three almost identical romance stories. In one, make them a hetero couple. In the second, make it inter-racial. And in the third make them a lesbian couple. Those will NOT receive the same ratings due to the opinions of the individuals among the audience.

Again, it is merely the voters' criteria is different. Other than that, the process is about the same. They are comparing the story to others and grading accordingly.

The BtB guy rates the story where the bitch ends up burnt as perfectly awesome as compared to all of the other stories where the butch gets burnt. He also rates the story where the bitch isn't burnt as terrible in comparison to all the ones where she is burnt.

See, the process is generally identical except for the criteria of each reader/voter. The process is still a comparison.

If you are arguing that comparisons across categories is an inaccurate measurement, I agree and have been on record saying so for a couple of years. However, advice on how to score highly is usually "write in incest and put mom in son's lap," or "write in romance and give two perfectly deserving people an HEA," because your story is very likely to be well received. On the other hand advice is also, "stay out of LW if you want to score highly," because it is the hardest category to score highly in. No matter how well you write it, you have the least chance of being well received there.

So if you want to compare scores of stories just simply for how well they score (hey, I'm good at scoring 4.9s because I have perfected pandering to the Mom/Son crowd, say), actually yes you can compare across categories accurately. Of course we are usually looking for something more related to the content when we do try to make these comparisons, so that is why it is inaccurate/misleading to compare across categories for that purpose. However, if we calculate percentiles independently in each category, we then can compare those percentiles across categories with some semblance of accuracy or meaning.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Nope. I think the great majority are fair at best. At least to my preferences. Most lack too much to be enjoyable reads. Many I've read I would not read again much less recommend them.
I used to read dozen a day at least.

But you just said that a 4 is good enough to recommend, and statistics prove that roughly 80% of lit stories are 4 or better and 95% are 3.75 or better.

You have no argument here if you don't even understand your own numbers and your own voting process or your own definition/value of good.

 

[Gamblnluck]

But you just said that a 4 is good enough to recommend, and statistics prove that roughly 80% of lit stories are 4 or better and 95% are 3.75 or better.

You have no argument here if you don't even understand your own numbers and your own voting process or your own definition/value of good.

In SOME categories, 4 is good. Loving Wives is one. In a few others a 4 barely rates readability. Those stats you quoted are accurate perhaps but crap when applied across the board. Like giving every kid in a little league a trophy and then claiming how great they are compared to all the other baseball playing kids in the world, because they had a 100% of their athletes awarded a trophy.

Even in the real world stats are crap when not viewed properly. I'll give you 2 examples.
I was a cardiac critical nurse at one time. I had a patient that needed heart surgery. He wanted to go to a city to our north to a surgeon who had an almost 99% success rate. Was that surgeon any better than others? NOPE. He had a reputation for taking only low risk patients. He cherry picked to give himself the improved success rate. Any at risk patient who still wanted a chance to live, he'd pass on.

The same goes for district attorneys in some cities. They refuse to prosecute any case they were not assured of getting a conviction. They'd almost give a murderer a pass and settle for plea based on having an illegal firearm. They could still claim a conviction. Think that doesn't happen?
Watch some of the news. Oh, Sunny Hosten on the View is one who loves to tout her 99.4% conviction rate. You can bet if she was such a hot shot lawyer/ prosecutor, she wouldn't be on the View even if she is getting paid a fortune.

 

[Lifestyle66]

I know that they are not equal. If you go back to my three examples, each voter has a different criteria for voting. If I would have listed 10 or more example voters, I would have included the one who used the criteria of whether or not the bitch was burned, 5 for yes and 1 for no. And it is perfectly accurate to state that the reader enjoyed the story because she was burnt, or did not enjoy it simply because she wasn't.

I also might have included the voter whose criteria is simply I hate that cunt psg, so therefore I hate all of her stories and she's getting 1s. Although this guy is likely not comparing anything since he's not measuring anything, he's just being a douchebag.



Again, it is merely the voters' criteria is different. Other than that, the process is about the same. They are comparing the story to others and grading accordingly.

The BtB guy rates the story where the bitch ends up burnt as perfectly awesome as compared to all of the other stories where the butch gets burnt. He also rates the story where the bitch isn't burnt as terrible in comparison to all the ones where she is burnt.

See, the process is generally identical except for the criteria of each reader/voter. The process is still a comparison.

If you are arguing that comparisons across categories is an inaccurate measurement, I agree and have been on record saying so for a couple of years. However, advice on how to score highly is usually "write in incest and put mom in son's lap," or "write in romance and give two perfectly deserving people an HEA," because your story is very likely to be well received. On the other hand advice is also, "stay out of LW if you want to score highly," because it is the hardest category to score highly in. No matter how well you write it, you have the least chance of being well received there.

So if you want to compare scores of stories just simply for how well they score (hey, I'm good at scoring 4.9s because I have perfected pandering to the Mom/Son crowd, say), actually yes you can compare across categories accurately. Of course we are usually looking for something more related to the content when we do try to make these comparisons, so that is why it is inaccurate/misleading to compare across categories for that purpose. However, if we calculate percentiles independently in each category, we then can compare those percentiles across categories with some semblance of accuracy or meaning.

Again, I disagree.

I deal with Loving Wives, where your whole category scheme falls apart. That audience is broken into at least two major factions: those BTB/ monogamgy-only and the other "let's have extra-marital fun!"

They are polar opposites within the same category. It would be like have an audience in Lesbian with 40% of the readers HATING and 1-bombing every story there which involves lesbians.

Soo, you can't compare stories within LW with each other, because a good sharing story will rate much lower than a poorly written BURN.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

In SOME categories, 4 is good. Loving Wives is one. In a few others a 4 barely rates readability. Those stats you quoted are accurate perhaps but crap when applied across the board. Like giving every kid in a little league a trophy and then claiming how great they are compared to all the other baseball playing kids in the world, because they had a 100% of their athletes awarded a trophy.

Exactly. That is why I (and a couple of others here) have been advocating the 'Hot' rating be pegged to a percentile (say 80th) independently in each category. What the Red H does as of now is precisely what you say. It rewards 45% of all stories a gold 1st place ribbon. It's like kindergarten - everybody wins, yay! The Red H is supposed to indicate the cream of the crop, but we quickly realize that it does not. Not even close. It is meaningless.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Again, I disagree.

I deal with Loving Wives, where your whole category scheme falls apart. That audience is broken into at least two major factions: those BTB/ monogamgy-only and the other "let's have extra-marital fun!"

They are polar opposites within the same category. It would be like have an audience in Lesbian with 40% of the readers HATING and 1-bombing every story there which involves lesbians.

Soo, you can't compare stories within LW with each other, because a good sharing story will rate much lower than a poorly written BURN.

You're right. It is not very practical comparing scores within LW for the reasons that you state (try telling that to NTH : P ). I have never disputed that, LW being lit's special case. But what is still true is that each voter rates each story by his own criteria, but those criteria still form a comparison to measure. A story vote is a judgment and a judgment is a measurement, although in most cases a less precise one than one made with a ruler or a stop watch. But it is still a measurement, and each story vote is a measurement made by comparing the reading experience of the story to the personal criteria. Some readers may have very precise criteria, others extremely vague, but it is still a comparison to criteria which measures and determines the voted score.

Now, separating that discussion from the one on generally improving the rating system, how do we achieve an accurate comparison of scores of stories on lit? We don't, for all the reasons that you state and that I and many others agree on. However, a category specific percentile measurement is considerably more meaningful than what we have now. LW of course being a special case, this system would be less meaningful than in other categories for sure, although it would be quite accurate to audience reaction, but not all that much to content, I'm totally with you there. This system may not help you much personally (you being an exclusive LW writer) but it wouldn't really change anything for you so no harm neither. However, for the rest of us it would be a significant general improvement.

Here's an example of how it would be more meaningful.

Story 1 ~ Romance, 4.75
Story 2 ~ BDSM, 4.6

On the surface it looks like Story 1 is performing better, but let's look deeper.

Story 1 ~ Romance, 4.75 ~ 60th percentile
Story 2 ~ BDSM, 4.6 ~ 70th percentile

Since it is so easy to tick the boxes and please the Romance readers, it is much easier to score highly in that category than in BDSM. Story 1 outperforms only 60% of all Romance stories despite the high score. Whereas Story 2 in BDSM, despite the significantly lower score, actually out performs 70% of the stories in its category, a crowd that is tougher to please. It is clear that Story 2 is actually getting a more positive reaction.

You can see how this is not nearly perfect accuracy, but it is definitely more meaningful than 4.75 vs 4.6 and 2 Red Hs. We have a better picture of the comparison of performance. Certainly LW is just a wild animal and comparing across categories with it will tell us less (probably a lot less), but for most categories we would definitely get a clearer picture of performance.