The AH Coffee Shop and Reading Room 09

[NotWise]

Trying to think this out...

Had a 1* vote on Meaningless Sex last night, and a comment explaining it this morning. Thanks for the explanation, Anonymous. That story is my lowest-rated Romance, and the female protagonist is the most common complaint (abrupt ending is the second most common). The story was a Pink Orchid entry, so I wanted the character to be complex enough to feel real. She's conflicted. She denies herself. She plays head games because she can't face her own feelings, etc.

I went through my catalog after reading the comment and tried to answer my question, "Do Lit readers hate conflicted characters?" keeping in mind that conflict is meaningless if it doesn't influence the way they act. It doesn't count if they just fret about something then go on about their business.

I don't have that many conflicted characters. Rachel in Meaningless Sex, and Zelda in Mom, etc. are examples, though Zelda has other issues. My male characters aren't usually complicated, much less conflicted. Cosima in Breaking with Tradition was conflicted, but the male character's actions let her resolve the conflict. Hope in No Brand on My Pony was conflicted, but a beta reader prompted me to change the single scene where she clearly expressed her conflict.

The closest I can get to an answer is that Lit readers want characters to be plain and simple, but they'll tolerate levels of conflict, depending on how the conflict is resolved. Conflict needs to be resolved in an emotionally satisfying way. Pixie, getting even with a former lover in Pixie by the Fireside, was not a popular resolution. Nor was her conflict fleshed out, so her resolution came out of the blue. Not a great story.

What do y'all think?

 

[Duleigh]

The closest I can get to an answer is that Lit readers want characters to be plain and simple, but they'll tolerate levels of conflict, depending on how the conflict is resolved. Conflict needs to be resolved in an emotionally satisfying way. Pixie, getting even with a former lover in Pixie by the Fireside, was not a popular resolution. Nor was her conflict fleshed out, so her resolution came out of the blue. Not a great story.

What do y'all think?

You are so right. Our anonymous readers want quick reads, simple characters, small words, easy resolutions and sex. They want strokers. Conflicts need to be ended with a happily ever after. I find that the readers that will engage in conversation are more open to plot twists, complex issues, and conflicts that go unresolved. The things that life is made of

 

[MillieDynamite]

My novel will be available for sale, exclusively at ZBookStore. It can't possibly pass at Amazon or other retail sites.

I'm closing in on the end of a romantasy. I took the core story of my story, The Enchantress, and stripped away everything that was Discworld fan fiction. I set A'tuin the enormous turtle free, gave the four elephants their walking papers, and inflated the discworld to a round world. It's been quite a project creating my own universe, and I had a lot of things I had to re-invent, like one of the core components that I overused - L Space. I even had to let The Librarian go. I'm aiming at major markets with this so we'll see what my publisher thinks. He's a d&d kinda guy, he may like it.

 

[iwatchus]

"Do Lit readers hate conflicted characters?"

Ellie, in my nude day entry, is VERY conflicted. That has done reasonably well. The other two significant characters have some deep conflicts as well, but not to the extent she does.

My FMC is very conflicted (for a while at least) in my current;y publishing novel (last segment appearing tomorrow!)

Several characters in my original series are conflicted, and that got quite good ratings

It can work.

 

[stickygirl]

I love finding new words and this one is especially relevant for my own writing...

idiolect - Wiki def

TLDR When a reader can identify a character by their use of language and style. Not simply what they say but how. Because I'm a Jane Austen girl, lets think of Mrs Bennet or Mr Collins, the creepy parson.



PS Lizzy Bennet banged Darcy like a French whore so don't get all prissy with me

 

[stickygirl]

Ellie, in my nude day entry, is VERY conflicted. That has done reasonably well. The other two significant characters have some deep conflicts as well, but not to the extent she does.

My FMC is very conflicted (for a while at least) in my current;y publishing novel (last segment appearing tomorrow!)

Several characters in my original series are conflicted, and that got quite good ratings

It can work.

*sigh*
conflicted characters
Darling, I live for conflicted characters

 

[TheRedLantern]

What do y'all think?

We talked about something similar in DMs, and I suspect that Duleigh's comment carries a lot of wisdom:

Our anonymous readers want quick reads, simple characters, small words, easy resolutions and sex

My sense is that more voters/commenters are male than female (the authors seem to skew female), and, when they come here, the brain is not where their blood is flowing.

I watched a 90 minute Youtube interview with one of my personal heroes and inspirations, Chuck Palaniuk. He talked about writing a novel called Invisible Monsters. A bunch of publishers flew him to NYC from the Pacific NW where he lives, and had him do some readings. They all liked it, but none of them were willing to buy it because "they didn't know where it would fit in a bookstore."

He went back home and shelved that novel. He said he was so pissed off at the publishers (his readers) and their lack of sophistication that he wrote a novel out of anger that he knew would piss them off, but he knew he could do it so well that they couldn't ignore him. That was Fight Club. "Writing from anger is a great source of motivation" is how I think he summarized that experience.

I'm starting to get where he's coming from.

 

[stickygirl]

We talked about something similar in DMs, and I suspect that Duleigh's comment carries a lot of wisdom:


My sense is that more voters/commenters are male than female (the authors seem to skew female), and, when they come here, the brain is not where their blood is flowing.

I watched a 90 minute Youtube interview with one of my personal heroes and inspirations, Chuck Palaniuk. He talked about writing a novel called Invisible Monsters. A bunch of publishers flew him to NYC from the Pacific NW where he lives, and had him do some readings. They all liked it, but none of them were willing to buy it because "they didn't know where it would fit in a bookstore."

He went back home and shelved that novel. He said he was so pissed off at the publishers (his readers) and their lack of sophistication that he wrote a novel out of anger that he knew would piss them off, but he knew he could do it so well that they couldn't ignore him. That was Fight Club. "Writing from anger is a great source of motivation" is how I think he summarized that experience.

I'm starting to get where he's coming from.

I'm writing a long story atm and more than one friend has asked 'Who is your target audience?' A fair enough question but my reply was that I'm writing it for me. If other people like it, then that's a huge bonus, but I'm writing because it's fun and I love playing with people and situations. I got bored of writing hump-stories for Lit, but it's been a good grounding. I'd give other writers the same response - do it for fun... I'm not sure I have enough energy to write a 'because I was angry' novel.

 

[TheRedLantern]

Darling, I live for conflicted characters

Please comment on stories more, then!

 

[stickygirl]

Please comment on stories more, then!

Got anything quick I can read - not too complicated - sex and happy ending? With Fries?

 

[MillieDynamite]

Whatever was in the shot the Doc gave me this morning seems to be working.

 

[NotWise]

Whatever was in the shot the Doc gave me this morning seems to be working.

A shot of Jameson from Doc Feelgood?

 

[TheRedLantern]

Got anything quick I can read - not too complicated - sex and happy ending? With Fries?

I had one but took it down because, like NotWise, I got crushed in the comments & DMs. That's why I jumped to his defense so fast. It stings.

I can tell from some AH threads that a good number of authors are trying to write complex, three-dimensional characters struggling with internal and external problems.

 

[NuclearFairy]

All of my characters are complicated in my head.

I think you guys might be right about the readers though.

 

[stickygirl]

All of my characters are complicated in my head.

I think you guys might be right about the readers though.

Ah heck to the readers! We should be writing for ourselves. It's wonderful to get positive comments but I suspect people fail in writing if they're looking over their shoulder too much or being inconsistent with their characters. Readers may or may not like you MC, but they'll hate you if you lead them up the garden path by making a hollow character who doesn't stand up to scrutiny... apart for LWs - all bets off in that category!

 

[NuclearFairy]

Ah heck to the readers! We should be writing for ourselves. It's wonderful to get positive comments but I suspect people fail in writing if they're looking over their shoulder too much or being inconsistent with their characters. Readers may or may not like you MC, but they'll hate you if you lead them up the garden path by making a hollow character who doesn't stand up to scrutiny... apart for LWs - all bets off in that category!

That's true.

The worst part though is when I write a complicated character, and then the readers go, "That's now how that character type would act!" But, it doesn't seem that way to me? Am I an inconsistent person? Do I only know inconsistent people?

 

[stickygirl]

That's true.

The worst part though is when I write a complicated character, and then the readers go, "That's now how that character type would act!" But, it doesn't seem that way to me? Am I an inconsistent person? Do I only know inconsistent people?

Readers = heck!
People love to criticise, because it’s easy and lazy and it forces you onto the back foot. It doesn’t make them right

 

[iwatchus]

I guess I have just been very lucky on what comments I have gotten. Even my one LW story didn't get anything really nasty.

I guess someone complaining about I shouldn't have men crying. Or I had someone complain that FMC put MMC character on a strict explicit consent only protocol for any touching after he almost raped her when he was drunk. Still seems reasonable to me.

 

[NotWise]

I had one but took it down because, like NotWise, I got crushed in the comments & DMs. That's why I jumped to his defense so fast. It stings.

I can tell from some AH threads that a good number of authors are trying to write complex, three-dimensional characters struggling with internal and external problems.

To be clear, I didn't exactly get crushed in comments & DMs. After yesterday's down votes (there were two), Meaningless Sex sits at 4.55. I wasn't offended by the 1* vote--everyone has an opinion--and I was glad he took the time to explain the vote. Most readers aren't as helpful (not, from his tone, like he really meant to help).

It did get me thinking about readers' problems with conflicted characters, hence my questions. The next step is to figure out how to write characters I want to spend weeks or months with and still make the readers happy.

I'm pretty sure that the first step is good dialog. From there? Don't know.

 

[NotWise]

That's true.

The worst part though is when I write a complicated character, and then the readers go, "That's now how that character type would act!" But, it doesn't seem that way to me? Am I an inconsistent person? Do I only know inconsistent people?

My first reaction to a comment like that would be "fuck you."

My second reaction would be to wonder if I didn't explain the character well enough for the reader to understand.

 

[NuclearFairy]

My first reaction to a comment like that would be "fuck you."

My second reaction would be to wonder if I didn't explain the character well enough for the reader to understand.

Well, the only other comment I got on that story essentially said it was a sweet and hot story about two weird people getting together. XD

So yeah, mostly it's had me trying to delve deeper into peoples heads to try and show the characters better. But it's hard, ya know?

 

[NotWise]

Well, the only other comment I got on that story essentially said it was a sweet and hot story about two weird people getting together. XD

So yeah, mostly it's had me trying to delve deeper into peoples heads to try and show the characters better. But it's hard, ya know?

I think there's a kind of transcendence between understanding a character yourself and understanding a character well enough to make them real for readers.

 

[NotWise]

I finished the third episode in my Summer Lovin' story ([The] Orgasm Game) and held off doing anything with the fourth (and climactic) episode until I firmed the content and approach. I laid down for a short nap and probably got no sleep. What I did get was a ton of ideas for how it ties together. I'm pumped.

But how do you describe an erotic union between two people who can't touch each other?

 

[Handpop]

I finished the third episode in my Summer Lovin' story ([The] Orgasm Game) and held off doing anything with the fourth (and climactic) episode until I firmed the content and approach. I laid down for a short nap and probably got no sleep. What I did get was a ton of ideas for how it ties together. I'm pumped.

But how do you describe an erotic union between two people who can't touch each other?

Mind blowing?

 

[NotWise]

Mind blowing?

I can only hope.