Seeking insights and opinions on fantasy orcs and gender roles

[NuclearFairy]

I'm writing a fantasy story about Orcs. Now the orcs at the start of the story don't believe that they have any girls. They have three castes, a really big one, a smarter one, and a small one that always gets killed at birth.

The main character is one of those small ones and a girl, who has realized since she was a teen that she was a girl, and has been fearfully hiding this for about 20 years, by pretending to be a young teen boy. She's not really trans, because psychically she is a girl, but all orcs are boys so no one really looked and just labeled her a boy. So, she was raised as a boy and has been having to hide what she is, so I just, wanted to get some perspective on what that's like?

This territory has only become safe for her caste within the past decade, and she has just educated them on the fact that her caste is female. The orcs won't treat their daughters any differently, but how will the handful of human women who live amongst them treat their daughters now that they know the truth? Will the women suddenly start treating them differently?

 

[Bamagan]

I guess you're going with some kind of 'birthing pit' or whatever for Orc reproduction in your setting? To me, the more interesting question is why they have sexes at all if they apparently aren't a factor in their reproductive processes. Is it a legacy from a time where they did mate in a human(oid) fashion?
Are the human women slaves? Are there male slaves as well? Do the female orcs have sexual attraction to anyone? When you say the male orcs won't treat their daughters any differently, does that mean they try to kill them like they normally did at birth, or do they just expect them to do whatever the males do? I assume that since the main female character has been hiding the truth she fears for her life, which would be a dramatically different consequence compared to hiding from fear of exile, ostracism, or some less severe form of discrimination.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Sometimes I flinch from the things we inflict on fantasy races.

 

[NuclearFairy]

I guess you're going with some kind of 'birthing pit' or whatever for Orc reproduction in your setting? To me, the more interesting question is why they have sexes at all if they apparently aren't a factor in their reproductive processes. Is it a legacy from a time where they did mate in a human(oid) fashion?
Are the human women slaves?

Typically an orc territory has a breeding house and whore houses where captured women are put depending on how desirable they are as potential mothers, and how fertile they still are. Then the runts would be killed at birth, and the others are taken from their mothers at weaning.

This territory has been doing it differently for about a decade though. Instead of capturing women from humans and the like, they rescue them from other orcs, take care of them, and give them the option to leave their territory. Not all of them take that option, these orcs get along with the neighboring human territory.

They also have not been slaughtering the small orcs, just raising them along side the bigger ones.

Are there male slaves as well?

In a few territories I'm sure, but it's not common.

Do the female orcs have sexual attraction to anyone?

Female orcs are natural, they've just been tricked into not existing for a few hundred years.

When you say the male orcs won't treat their daughters any differently, does that mean they try to kill them like they normally did at birth, or do they just expect them to do whatever the males do?

Orcs, do not have much of a concept of gender roles, so once they got it into their heads that they shouldn't be holding women as slaves for breeding, they decided to have them learn what ever job they were physically capable of. Which is why most of the women who've stayed have stayed. Their daughters are smaller than their sons, and so they are treated with a bit more care, but that won't change once they know that they're boys and girls.

I assume that since the main female character has been hiding the truth she fears for her life, which would be a dramatically different consequence compared to hiding from fear of exile, ostracism, or some less severe form of discrimination.

It's a combination of fear for her life, and fear of the breeding houses. But yeah.

 

[NuclearFairy]

Sometimes I flinch from the things we inflict on fantasy races.

We can be rather mean to them.

 

[Bamagan]

Typically an orc territory has a breeding house and whore houses where captured women are put depending on how desirable they are as potential mothers, and how fertile they still are. Then the runts would be killed at birth, and the others are taken from their mothers at weaning.

This territory has been doing it differently for about a decade though. Instead of capturing women from humans and the like, they rescue them from other orcs, take care of them, and give them the option to leave their territory. Not all of them take that option, these orcs get along with the neighboring human territory.

They also have not been slaughtering the small orcs, just raising them along side the bigger ones.

In a few territories I'm sure, but it's not common.

Female orcs are natural, they've just been tricked into not existing for a few hundred years.

Orcs, do not have much of a concept of gender roles, so once they got it into their heads that they shouldn't be holding women as slaves for breeding, they decided to have them learn what ever job they were physically capable of. Which is why most of the women who've stayed have stayed. Their daughters are smaller than their sons, and so they are treated with a bit more care, but that won't change once they know that they're boys and girls.

It's a combination of fear for her life, and fear of the breeding houses. But yeah.

That all seems like a distractingly complex setting that isn't very much like the handful of IPs I'm familiar with that include orcs (mostly Tolkien and D&D). Or at least, such things are distracting for me personally; the originality might well be a selling point to others. The reproductive strategy seems bizarre to me and is the kind of thing I would fixate on. For example, I'd be wondering if the orcs are basically cloning themselves, since the human women seem to be having fully orc babies, or if their slightly less violent behavior is a result of hybridization. That's probably not where you're intending to take the story.
Given that the orcs have at least two unambiguous sexes but no socially defined expectations for gender roles, I'd expect the female orcs to mostly fall into one of two behavior patterns: emulate the male orcs to whatever extent possible because they identify primarily as orcs, or emulate the human women because sex is more central to their sense of self than species. A character who can't decide that question easily could be an interesting character study, which does seem to be a direction you might be heading. I'd argue that such a character probably would be trans, if that happens to be the case, although the label may not matter much in this context.
Likewise, I'd expect the human women to react differently to their daughters based on how they behave. They would arguably relate better to any female orcs that wanted to conform to human gender roles, because they would have more in common with their 'other-species' daughters that way. Given that they lose their children when weaned, they might also expect to get to keep the daughters longer if there's a need to rear them according to gender roles, which might be less traumatic. Or, if the women tend not to develop emotional attachment to children that are apparently of a different species, they might display the same disdain for female orcs as the males do. Since female orcs don't seem to have any necessary role in the species' propagation, any resources spent on rearing them might be considered wasted, in which case there'd be a need to hide from both elements of their society.
I'd want to see the root of her fear of breeding houses explored and explained for this setting. Does she have much experience with the way neighboring human communities deal with gender roles and reproduction? I'd think that would be necessary in order for her to find the customs used by the orcs to be unnatural, unethical, or otherwise a source of fear, since their particular community of human women have apparently stayed voluntarily. Did her mother tell her to fear it, and if so, why say it if she was a willing participant? Some kind of tragic or traumatic event involving the mother might make sense, especially if the character was too young to fully understand the context. Or, perhaps the human communities are generally unwilling to accept women who have been bred by orcs, which could explain why they stay, but not necessarily why the FMC would find humans to be more worthy of emulation than her own people(s).
All of the above is why I largely stopped reading SF/F erotica: I get too distracted. You don't have to answer all my questions here in the forum, but if you're able to answer them, you'll probably be able to figure out how your character would believably behave in their society.

 

[Britva415]

I'm writing a fantasy story about Orcs. Now the orcs at the start of the story don't believe that they have any girls. They have three castes, a really big one, a smarter one, and a small one that always gets killed at birth.

The main character is one of those small ones and a girl, who has realized since she was a teen that she was a girl, and has been fearfully hiding this for about 20 years, by pretending to be a young teen boy. She's not really trans, because psychically she is a girl, but all orcs are boys so no one really looked and just labeled her a boy. So, she was raised as a boy and has been having to hide what she is, so I just, wanted to get some perspective on what that's like?

This territory has only become safe for her caste within the past decade, and she has just educated them on the fact that her caste is female. The orcs won't treat their daughters any differently, but how will the handful of human women who live amongst them treat their daughters now that they know the truth? Will the women suddenly start treating them differently?

How did she not get killed at birth?

For that matter, how are orcs born if there aren’t any female ones?

 

[NuclearFairy]

That all seems like a distractingly complex setting that isn't very much like the handful of IPs I'm familiar with that include orcs (mostly Tolkien and D&D). Or at least, such things are distracting for me personally; the originality might well be a selling point to others. The reproductive strategy seems bizarre to me and is the kind of thing I would fixate on. For example, I'd be wondering if the orcs are basically cloning themselves, since the human women seem to be having fully orc babies, or if their slightly less violent behavior is a result of hybridization. That's probably not where you're intending to take the story.

The x species reproduces themselves with others and only retains superficial resemblance to non x parent is becoming increasingly common. Which is part of what spawned the idea for this, it doesn't really seem sustainable for an all male species.

Given that the orcs have at least two unambiguous sexes but no socially defined expectations for gender roles, I'd expect the female orcs to mostly fall into one of two behavior patterns: emulate the male orcs to whatever extent possible because they identify primarily as orcs, or emulate the human women because sex is more central to their sense of self than species. A character who can't decide that question easily could be an interesting character study, which does seem to be a direction you might be heading. I'd argue that such a character probably would be trans, if that happens to be the case, although the label may not matter much in this context.

Yeah, she is having trouble deciding that question.

Likewise, I'd expect the human women to react differently to their daughters based on how they behave. They would arguably relate better to any female orcs that wanted to conform to human gender roles, because they would have more in common with their 'other-species' daughters that way. Given that they lose their children when weaned, they might also expect to get to keep the daughters longer if there's a need to rear them according to gender roles, which might be less traumatic. Or, if the women tend not to develop emotional attachment to children that are apparently of a different species, they might display the same disdain for female orcs as the males do. Since female orcs don't seem to have any necessary role in the species' propagation, any resources spent on rearing them might be considered wasted, in which case there'd be a need to hide from both elements of their society.

Well, in this particular territory one of the roles that the freed women can choose to take is to join an orc family. In which case she would be an equal part in raising that family's offspring.

Ah well, the original reason that the orcs were tricked into killing all their women was because of the fear of them out-competing the humans. If nothing else, an orc woman can bear an orc child much easier than a human woman can.

I'd want to see the root of her fear of breeding houses explored and explained for this setting. Does she have much experience with the way neighboring human communities deal with gender roles and reproduction? I'd think that would be necessary in order for her to find the customs used by the orcs to be unnatural, unethical, or otherwise a source of fear, since their particular community of human women have apparently stayed voluntarily. Did her mother tell her to fear it, and if so, why say it if she was a willing participant? Some kind of tragic or traumatic event involving the mother might make sense, especially if the character was too young to fully understand the context. Or, perhaps the human communities are generally unwilling to accept women who have been bred by orcs, which could explain why they stay, but not necessarily why the FMC would find humans to be more worthy of emulation than her own people(s).

Well young orphaned orcs make up the bulk of the workers in a breeding house. And since the MC was orphaned at a young age, to essentially be raised by her friends, her first parental figure that she can remember was a woman at the breeding house that she was put to work in as an older child. The breeding house is also where she got enough information to finally put two and two together and realize that she's a female.

Yeah, there is a lot of stigma against accepting women back from the orcs, but unlike the laws on what a woman can and cannot do they're not codified which is why some women do go back instead of staying.

 

[NuclearFairy]

How did she not get killed at birth?

She wasn't birthed by a doctor, and no orc would willingly kill his own offspring. It takes a special kind of orc to be willing to kill a newborn, even with all the propaganda going around about how their short life will be full of nothing but pain. Most orc doctors are that special kind of orc.

For that matter, how are orcs born if there aren’t any female ones?

Magic causes the two wholly incompatible species to produce an offspring that has some resemblance to their mother, but to be wholly the father's species.

In short, gods are meddling bastards.

 

[iwatchus]

In short, gods are meddling bastards.

Gods or authors.

 

[TheLobster]

Gods or authors.

Potato, potato.

 

[MrHereWriting]

The main character is one of those small ones and a girl, who has realized since she was a teen that she was a girl, and has been fearfully hiding this for about 20 years, by pretending to be a young teen boy. She's not really trans, because psychically she is a girl, but all orcs are boys so no one really looked and just labeled her a boy. So, she was raised as a boy and has been having to hide what she is, so I just, wanted to get some perspective on what that's like?

You can only suspend disbelief when everything within these disbelievable worlds makes sense within the world they are in.

 

[NuclearFairy]

You can only suspend disbelief when everything within these disbelievable worlds makes sense within the world they are in.

Well I didn't want to describe her genitals in the thread, but have you ever seen a hyena?

 

[MrHereWriting]

Well I didn't want to describe her genitals in the thread, but have you ever seen a hyena?

Looking up what the genitals of animals look like has never entered my mind, don't plan to start either.

 

[NuclearFairy]

Looking up what the genitals of animals look like has never entered my mind, don't plan to start either.

Fair enough.

Completely relevant.

Anyways, genitals would pass for a boy's if only the most cursory inspection was done.

 

[MrHereWriting]

Fair enough.

Completely relevant.

Anyways, genitals would pass for a boy's if only the most cursory inspection was done.

From this website's Article (No offense, but I didn't want to click your link and get a eyeful of Hyena dick.)

All female spotted hyenas have functional penises. They use it pee, signal, anally mount males & females for dominance, and give birth.​

The females have a phallus 90% as long and the same diameter as a male penis (yes, somebody measured, 171 millimeters long and 22 millimeters in diameter). The labia are fused to form a scrotum containing fat and connective tissue resembling testicles. The urogenital canal runs the length of the clitoris, rather than venting from below. The animal can pee with the organ, making it a penis. Completing the picture, the female penis contains erectile tissue (corpus spongiosum) that allows erections like those of a male penis.

Gross, but nature isn't always pretty, it is fascinating, though.

On the other hand, I've learned something new, and if that's what a female orc's interesting bits look like in your world, that seems believable enough. Hopefully, your orcs don't circumcise the males after birth.

 

[NuclearFairy]

From this website's Article (No offense, but I didn't want to click your link and get a eyeful of Hyena dick.)

All female spotted hyenas have functional penises. They use it pee, signal, anally mount males & females for dominance, and give birth.​

The females have a phallus 90% as long and the same diameter as a male penis (yes, somebody measured, 171 millimeters long and 22 millimeters in diameter). The labia are fused to form a scrotum containing fat and connective tissue resembling testicles. The urogenital canal runs the length of the clitoris, rather than venting from below. The animal can pee with the organ, making it a penis. Completing the picture, the female penis contains erectile tissue (corpus spongiosum) that allows erections like those of a male penis.

Gross, but nature isn't always pretty, it is fascinating, though.

On the other hand, I've learned something new, and if that's what a female orc's interesting bits look like in your world, that seems believable enough. Hopefully, your orcs don't circumcise the males after birth.

Sorry, should've made it clear that the link had nothing to do with hyenas.

Ah, not quite, I was too traumatized by the hyena documentary I watched to want to do that to any MC I had as a viewpoint character. Seriously, having sex or giving birth through a penis looks like the opposite of fun. Not that giving birth is fun anyways...

But, I did get the idea from hyenas to make their clit much more penile like than for the average human and that thread was about me trying to figure out how to describe it.

 

[TheLobster]

All female spotted hyenas have functional penises.

Understandable. Everyone who's watched Lion King knows that regardless of sex, hyenas tend to be total dicks.

 

[onehitwanda]

Understandable. Everyone who's watched Lion King knows that regardless of sex, hyenas tend to be total dicks.

They did kill Scar though in the end, which is a reasonable redemption arc...