Pronouns in writing

[NuclearFairy]

What sort of weird thing does it say about me that I find that description kinda hot?

 

[DeMont]

- Mary Shelley, "Frankenstein"

@Bramblethorn,
A most fitting example and yet the narrator knew that the creature was a "male" cadaver and contained a "male" brain thus she would have been predisposed to using the male pronoun, naturally.

I can't help but wonder, still, what if that particular author had been of a mind to write the tale with contrasting ideas, i.e. a male cadaver with a female brain.

In her day Mary Shelley was striving, I believe, to write for a predominantly male audience and male editors since the craft of writing was, more often than not, expected to come from male minds, Byron, Keats and the like. That is, obviously, not to detract from her success nor the successes of her contemporaries...

As Bob Dylan said, "The times they are a changin'"

Thank you for your comment.
Respectfully,
D.

 

[DeMont]

What sort of weird thing does it say about me that I find that description kinda hot?

@NuclearFairy,
That you are either a Goth or a great fan of horror movies? Just guessing...
Respectfully,
D.

 

[Bramblethorn]

@Bramblethorn,
A most fitting example and yet the narrator knew that the creature was a "male" cadaver and contained a "male" brain thus she would have been predisposed to using the male pronoun, naturally.

I can't help but wonder, still, what if that particular author had been of a mind to write the tale with contrasting ideas, i.e. a male cadaver with a female brain.

Mary Shelley's life suggests an answer to that question: she was friends with Walter Sholto Douglas, who in modern terms would likely be considered a transgender man, and she helped him obtain a passport in a male identity. So it seems likely to me that she would have gone with the identity of the brain over the body.

 

[DeMont]

Good evening colleagues, I trust all are well?
I have a question that would be well served by some feedback from you. It used to be that pronouns in writing were fairly simple and straightforward a concept. However, as we move forward with the times this becomes more of a problematic area. It becomes especially important if you are going to write, or read, stories that involve some of the very modern ideas of self identification.

Indulge me if you will;
"Pronoun (noun)
1: plural pronouns : any of a small set of words (such as I, she, he, you, it, we, or they) in a language that are used as substitutes for nouns or noun phrases and whose referents are named or understood in the context
2: pronouns plural : the third person personal pronouns (such as he/him, she/her, and they/them) that a person goes by
What are your pronouns?
"I'm Jo, my pronouns are she/her." "I'm Jade, my pronouns are they/them."
… many people with nonbinary genders use "they" and "their" pronouns, although language and gender expression vary widely.

The most common pronouns are the personal pronouns, which refer to the person or people speaking or writing (first person), the person or people being spoken to (second person), or other people or things (third person). Like nouns, personal pronouns can function as either the subject of a verb or the object of a verb or preposition: "She likes him, but he loves her." Most of the personal pronouns have different subject and object forms:"

[Ref: Merriam Webster Dictionary]

Now imagine, if you would, you were writing a story based on Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein" hypothesis. Our errant doctor obtains a brain, the brain of a male. He sends his cronies out to get hold of a body, a fresh cadaver, from the local mortuary but they get disturbed and grab up a female corpse by mistake. Despite this the doctor decides to go for it anyway and, lo and behold, he succeeds. So far, so good. However when the creature wakes up it is to find that it is, essentially, a man trapped in a woman's body.

During the writing when, and how, does the pronoun change from he to she? Or, she to he? Or, does it?
Ponderingly, and with deepest respects,
D.

Good evening my dear colleagues,
I couldn't figure out how to reply to you all so I replied to myself (strange concept...!)
Well, it is done. The tale, "Supernauts 2 - Furey" will be up in a few days and I will be able to gather reactions from readers feedback. If any of you chance to read it I would greatly, and gratefully, appreciate any feedback you may wish to give. Yes, it was, and is, a grand experiment in stretching the envelope of writing. Not only, and primarily, is it for the readers but also for myself to explore another side to the written arts.
Will it succeed? I don't know. I enjoyed the challenge and I believe I brought something worthwhile to the table. Now I sit with fingers crossed.
Respectfully, as always,
D.

(I might add, this tale was inspired by a young family member whom, in the teenage years, declared their non-gender identification and dropped their birth name in favour of the name 'Grey'. They now go by the pronouns they or them)

 

[DeMont]

Mary Shelley's life suggests an answer to that question: she was friends with Walter Sholto Douglas, who in modern terms would likely be considered a transgender man, and she helped him obtain a passport in a male identity. So it seems likely to me that she would have gone with the identity of the brain over the body.

@Bramblethorn, Ahhhh, yes, a fact I failed to take into account. Many thanks.
Respectfully,
D.

 

[TheLobster]

I couldn't figure out how to reply to you all so I replied to myself (strange concept...!)

Quite. You could’ve simply posted a reply without any quotes, as a standalone contribution to the thread as a whole.

Tangentially, when you do quote someone’s post, its author will already get s notification that you’ve done so. Which means there is no need for a separate @ mention.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I was more contemplating a story for myself rather than suggesting it for your endeavor. All the best of hopes and wishes on your tale. May it have a plathroa of 5's and narry a 1.

@MillieDynamite,
A theory I considered but rejected in the end... I wanted a clear cut, clean and complete transition in place.
Respectfully,
D.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

May it have a plathroa of 5's and narry a 1.

I have no idea why, but that word almost always invokes McNairy County.

 

[MillieDynamite]

It's something my father says at times. And because of that, so do I? But truthfully, I haven't read Reminiscences of the Early Settlement and Early Settlers of McNairy County, Tennessee, so I'm not sure if narry has anything or everything to do with your remembrance.

I have no idea why, but that word almost always invokes McNairy County.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

It's something my father says at times. And because of that, so do I? But truthfully, I haven't read Reminiscences of the Early Settlement and Early Settlers of McNairy County, Tennessee, so I'm not sure if narry has anything or everything to do with your remembrance.

As a crime writer, you're not familiar with McNairy County? It may be one of the most famous cases in US history.

 

[MillieDynamite]

No, I'm not. I have read about crime in my research, but I have never found it in my research. However, when I run it on Google, I see it's about a major drug bust. That is the kind of crime I research. I write about murder, serial killers, and set most of my stories further in the past than 2015.

As a crime writer, you're not familiar with McNairy County? It may be one of the most famous cases in US history.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

No, I'm not. I have read about crime in my research, but I have never found it in my research. However, when I run it on Google, I see it's about a major drug bust. That is the kind of crime I research. I write about murder, serial killers, and set most of my stories further in the past than 2015.

You're not familiar with Buford Pusser and 'Walking Tall'?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking_Tall_(1973_film)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buford_Pusser

 

[Chudster]

Numan, Numan, Numan!

 

[MillieDynamite]

I've seen the movies. I don't remember the county used in the stories. I even read the book. But obviously, I forgot about it. Sorry, my perfection unit burned out, and I can't afford a new one.

You're not familiar with Buford Pusser and 'Walking Tall'?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking_Tall_(1973_film)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buford_Pusser

 

[Bramblethorn]

Numan, Numan, Numan!

 

[DeMont]

View attachment 2555475

@Bramblethorn and @Chudster,
All hail the Godfather of Electronica... I first picked up 'The Blue Album' (Alternate post '78 cover art) early in '79. I've been a hardcore 'Numanoid' ever since, however, returning to the thread,
@Five_Inch_Heels and @MillieDynamite,
The word "nary" appeared in the 18th century, probably as a contraction of an expression such as "never a". Another word of similar occurrence,"Ne'er", appears to date back as early as the 13th century and is probably a colloquial contraction of "Never".

The English, in certain modern regional dialects, (such as my first wife's father from Northern England) still employ 'Nary' meaning "not any" or "not one". The most common phrase of his usage was 'nary a' when he was referring to particular thing, e.g. 'nary a one', meaning he hadn't seen something. It is, no doubt, an archaic term and likely led to the term "narry" you are discussing.
Not meaning to butt in ladies, of course.
Respectfully,
D.

 

[DeMont]

I was more contemplating a story for myself rather than suggesting it for your endeavor. All the best of hopes and wishes on your tale. May it have a plathroa of 5's and narry a 1.

@MillieDynamite, My dear, I would be delighted to read any such story that you might write for us along those . I would even go so far as to hold it up, privately, as a comparison piece to my own to see what I may have failed in and what I may improve upon.
Respectfully, always,
D.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

The English, in certain modern regional dialects, (such as my first wife's father from Northern England) still employ 'Nary' meaning "not any" or "not one". The most common phrase of his usage was 'nary a' when he was referring to particular thing, e.g. 'nary a one', meaning he hadn't seen something. It is, no doubt, an archaic term and likely led to the term "narry" you are discussing.
Not meaning to butt in ladies, of course.
Respectfully,
D.

Nary/nairy a one isn't particularly archaic in British English. Somewhat old-fashioned, maybe. I suppose Americans who merge the Mary/marry vowels would use 'narry' the same way.

Old joke: What's the difference between Prince William (Charles, last time I saw this one), a bald man, an orphan and an orang-utan?

William is the Heir Apparent.
A bald man has no hair apparent.
An ape has a hairy parent
An orphan has nary a parent.

Thank you, thank you...

 

[TheLobster]

Thank you, thank you...

Not every joke is a dad joke, and yet sometimes it is simply apparent.

 

[MillieDynamite]

You flatter me.

@MillieDynamite, My dear, I would be delighted to read any such story that you might write for us along those . I would even go so far as to hold it up, privately, as a comparison piece to my own to see what I may have failed in and what I may improve upon.
Respectfully, always,
D.

 

[Britva415]

I thought "narry" was just a mis-spelling of "nary."

I'm still learning English, I guess

 

[MillieDynamite]

You may be right. But it didn't tag it as misspelled when I put narry—nary, narry who knows.

I thought "narry" was just a mis-spelling of "nary."

I'm still learning English, I guess

 

[MillieDynamite]

It should be nary. My bad, all day, every day.

 

[Britva415]

You may be right. But it didn't tag it as misspelled when I put narry—nary, narry who knows.

It's not clear to me what it is, but @DeMont seemed to recognize a distinction, up in #42.