Alternatives to Porn, should we try together?

[Cagivagurl]

I read the frustration and pain in your post, and I understand that the porn industry is a deeply polarizing topic, especially given its troubled history and many well-documented abuses. Your concerns about exploitation, misogyny, and harm are valid and important.

However, I think it’s worth considering that the industry isn’t a monolith, and painting it with such a broad brush overlooks important nuances and progress.

I actually don’t know how much of a ‘mainstream’ porn-industry currently still exists but afaik they struggled quite a lot in the last decades as big platforms like Pornhub made the content available for free and on the other hand platforms like Only-Fans and Co. allowed performers to work more independently. One of the problems, that women in the industry currently face are kind of exploitative “managers” which initially promise lots of money for girls going to Only-Fans with harmless stuff and then try to get them to do more and more hardcore things while keeping big parts of the earnings – not everyone is like that, but there are some significant black sheeps.

But there is also a big indie porn scene, that has developed. Many women there aren’t just performers but also producers, directors, and creators who have significant control over their work like Erika Lust, Ovidie or Paulita Pappel. They’re crafting content that aligns with their values, often prioritizing consent, authenticity, and creative expression. Also and in direct connection with that, the gay and queer porn communities have carved out spaces that celebrate diverse identities and challenge traditional norms, often with a focus on empowerment rather than exploitation. These segments of the industry are driven by people who are reclaiming narratives and building ethical frameworks, which is a far cry from the outdated stereotype of predatory practices.

I also understand your dismissal of “Facials” which have become a symbol of misogyny in many critiques of porn, often representing a power imbalance, even humiliation. That discomfort makes sense, especially when these acts are shown uncritical or without clear signs of consent or mutual enjoyment.

But then I think about BDSM, which can appear far more intense - even violent - and yet is widely accepted even in many sex-positive feminist and queer spaces. So what’s the difference?

From what I’ve seen, it’s less the what is shown, and more how it’s made. In ethical BDSM and indie productions, a lot of care is put into consent and communication. There are intimacy coordinators who help advocate for performers and oversee the dynamics on set. Consent checklists are often used before filming, where performers indicate exactly what they’re okay with and what their hard limits are. These checklists don’t just protect performers legally - they also foster trust, clarity and accountability. In higher-quality productions, especially in BDSM, there’s often a check-in afterwards too - sometimes called a debrief or aftercare - to help performers calm down from a process Aftercare is also a very important thing in real-life-BDSM, as especially being the bottom in BDSM can be very exciting but also emotionally exhausting – yet not everybody is like that. I have spoken to people who told me, they rather prefer to be alone afterwards. That’s an individual thing, but must definitely be offered.

Dismissing the entire industry ignores these diverse voices and the progress being made. It also overlooks the real struggles faced by those at the margins - small indie performers, niche fetish creators, and gay and queer sex workers. These folks often face systemic barriers, like being denied credit card payments or banking services simply because they’re labeled “exploitative” by default. They’re not the ones making big money; they’re the ones working hardest to survive in an industry that’s stigmatized. Rather than condemning everyone in the industry, I think one should rather focus on supporting ethical practices and responsible creators.

I’m not a pro in this area - just someone who’s been curious and has had some contact with people performing in and producing indie porn. If you’re open to it, I’d recommend checking out some indie porn platforms created by the producers I mentioned, or looking into porn film festivals like the Porn Film Festival Berlin. They show works that are mostly very different from the stereotypical “facial scenes” you might find on Pornhub - with a strong focus on queer, feminist, and experimental films. You might even get the chance to meet the performers and producers, and hear their perspectives directly. It could be quite different from what you expect.

I may have used a broad brush, as you say.
I did so because, the industry is ruled mostly by dark forces who exploit human beings of all genders and sexuality's. The more fringe they are. The worse it gets.
There may be a small pocket of the industry trying to operate in a more humane way, but by and large, we all know how it works.
You can try to justify the industry by saying there are good people involved... As true as that might be. Prisons the world over are full of, mostly nice people.
The problem is... Porn in all it's genres forces people into activities they do not want to be in...
Maybe it's because off addiction, or their upbringing. They mostly (My opinion) come from marginalised situations where their options and alternatives are non existent...
They are victims of a society which by and large turns their back on it because they get off watching porn... So, who cares if a few people get a bad deal... Hundreds of thousands of individuals get sold into sexual slavery every year. Their rights taken away. Human beings... Their lives destroyed forever...
You are entitled to your opinion, as am I.
We obviously differ on the issue, which is OK. The discussion requires balance...

Cagivagurl

 

[Cagivagurl]

Here's my problem with what you're saying. I do not dispute that for many women the porn industry is this way.

But not ALL women.

Consider the OnlyFans phenomenon. A woman decides she wants to post "pornographic" images and videos of herself online. She does all the work herself. After OF takes its 20% cut, which is by industry standards low, she pockets all the rest. She makes money. She supports herself. At no point in the process does she deal with men who exploit or demean her. She has total control over the content she creates and distributes.

There are women who have done this and who've done interviews and said they're glad they did it, that it was a positive experience, that it allowed them to attain more financial security, express themselves, etc., etc.

I'm not going to get into a debate about how representative or "normal" this is, but there clearly are women who say this is how it was.

Do you just completely discount these experiences? If so, why? What they're doing clearly is porn, but how is it harmful?

To my way of thinking, to say that the "porn transaction" -- a woman choosing to participate in the creation of visual sexual entertainment that involves her own body -- is "inherently demeaning or bad to women" is itself a kind of misogynistic perspective. It denies full agency to women. It's obvious why conservative religious moralists want to do this. It's more interesting why people who identify with the oppposite political perspective ALSO say this.

This is my perspective. Part of what is so fun and "good" about erotica is that it represents the ability of the individual to say "I don't care what the majority's sexual experience is. This is MY experience, and I'm going to celebrate it, dammit. If you don't like it, that's too effing bad." That's part of the good of erotica, but it's also part of the good of visual porn. Your body is your own, to do with as you please.

The campaign against porn ends up as a campaign to stifle the ability of women, and men, to have control over their bodies.

Yes, we disagree, What you describe is such a tiny proportion of the industry...
By and large, the industry is a cess pool, a sewer run by the worst that humanity has produce.
The people trapped in the industry. Forced to work in it because they have no choice. No alternatives... They exploited and demened...
The porn industry is not the lovely warm fuzzy world you describe. In my opinion, which is all I'm offering.
OK, so you like to watch porn, and it fits your fantasy to think that the women are there voluntarily. That they want to do it...
So even although the facts prove otherwise. Humanity turns their backs on the poor victims trapped in a world they don't want to be in.
Your opinion differs from mine. That's OK... Balance...
I hate the porn industry with a vengeance...I can think of nothing worse than watching somebody being sexually assaulted because they have no choice... All for my sexual gratification...
No thanks....

Cagivagurl

 

[Astrotrain]

Like I said, stick to hentai.

 

[SimonDoom]

Yes, we disagree, What you describe is such a tiny proportion of the industry...
By and large, the industry is a cess pool, a sewer run by the worst that humanity has produce.
The people trapped in the industry. Forced to work in it because they have no choice. No alternatives... They exploited and demened...
The porn industry is not the lovely warm fuzzy world you describe. In my opinion, which is all I'm offering.
OK, so you like to watch porn, and it fits your fantasy to think that the women are there voluntarily. That they want to do it...
So even although the facts prove otherwise. Humanity turns their backs on the poor victims trapped in a world they don't want to be in.
Your opinion differs from mine. That's OK... Balance...
I hate the porn industry with a vengeance...I can think of nothing worse than watching somebody being sexually assaulted because they have no choice... All for my sexual gratification...
No thanks....

Cagivagurl

How do you know any of this to be true?

You keep falling back on "this is my opinion," but what you are saying is not a matter of opinion. You are stating facts as though they are true, but you don't show any source for the truth of any of this.

I've watched plenty of porn. 99% or more of what I have seen is not in any way "sexual assault." It involves a) women posing naked, b) women masturbating, or c) people having consensual sex. This is more true than ever now with media like OnlyFans where no male producers/directors/photographers are involved. I have no idea what you are talking about when you talk about "watching somebody being sexually assaulted." That does not describe the vast, vast majority of porn that is made and witnessed. It's not a matter of opinion. What you are saying is simply not factually accurate. If you disagree, what's your proof? If you are going to make broad, sweeping indictments of an entire industry, they should be based upon more than your "opinion" shouldn't they?

 

[MrHereWriting]

Holy shit! Porn exploits people? This doesn't happen in any other industry in the world, does it? Or just in general? I hope not! I'd hate to think that my clothes, or my phone, or my cars, or my food or anything that I own, use, consume, or entertain myself with came at the cost of other people's well-being.

If it does, how will ever enjoy anything ever again?

 

[Cagivagurl]

How do you know any of this to be true?

You keep falling back on "this is my opinion," but what you are saying is not a matter of opinion. You are stating facts as though they are true, but you don't show any source for the truth of any of this.

I've watched plenty of porn. 99% or more of what I have seen is not in any way "sexual assault." It involves a) women posing naked, b) women masturbating, or c) people having consensual sex. This is more true than ever now with media like OnlyFans where no male producers/directors/photographers are involved. I have no idea what you are talking about when you talk about "watching somebody being sexually assaulted." That does not describe the vast, vast majority of porn that is made and witnessed. It's not a matter of opinion. What you are saying is simply not factually accurate. If you disagree, what's your proof? If you are going to make broad, sweeping indictments of an entire industry, they should be based upon more than your "opinion" shouldn't they?

I know my truth as you know yours...
I offered no facts.
I stated my opinion. Just as you do in your response. You offer no facts other than what you see. In this we are equal... We have views of the world, which colour our opinions.
Ours vary, which is normal for most of humanity. We see things differently. I'm OK with that.
I am not trying to discredit your opinion.,.,.
You say you watch porn...
Lets assume we watch a video of a woman having sex with a man... All very lovely.
How do we know that the actors are doing so voluntarily? They may have been forced into it... We don't know... We make assumptions.
They might be right, or they might be wrong...
We make them anyway.
So, I voice my opinion here, just as you do..,.
Mine is not better than yours. It certainly isn't worse than yours. It's just different.

Cagivagurl

 

[KittyOfSteele]

I do not disagree, I mentioned in my comment, that those beliefs run in every element of society. Being a musician, I am well aware of the misogynistic exploitive nature of the industry. At least recently, there has been a push to rid the industry of the disgusting pigs who have ruled the roost.
I'm sure everybody reading, can insert other industry's that exploit people.

Porn is the worst, and yes that is my opinion only. It is a sewer pit of humanity. People, not only women forced into horrific acts of degradation to try and make a living.
I'm sure there are people who enter the industry of their own volition. Every rule has an exception. Do they do so because it was their first choice? Because they've always wanted to be a porn star?
I doubt that. They do so (Mostly) due to having no alternative. Again, my opinion only...
You have your views on the world, and I accept we see things differently. Your opinion, is as valid is mine...
I make my comments because there has to be a balance.
The forum is made up mostly of men, so the argument is always stilted. Porn is great... Non consensual sex is amazing... Yes, I get sick of seeing those comments unchallenged....
I do not apologise for my opinions, right or wrong. They are mine and I will continue to make them...
Every coin has two sides....

Cagivagurl

You're right, our opinions are valid. That doesn't mean they can't be challenged, and your reasons to say porn is the worst is based upon rushed generalizations and stigma that only does more harm than good. I didn't even mention non-consensual sex.

There was once a time in which a difference of opinion was a good thing, but with the advent of the Internet, no one's willing to drop down their egos, because every single one of your messages has the same thing: "this is my opinion."

I'm not trying to change your mind, but your attitude is already telling that you're not willing to see what isn't on the spotlight because it is your opinion.

 

[FrancesScott]

If you are going to make broad, sweeping indictments of an entire industry, they should be based upon more than your "opinion" shouldn't they?

Like more women like rape porn than men do you mean?

You left your King exposed - what was I meant to do, not check it?

 

[Djmac1031]

Really interested in what you think

about your story? Im honestly confused by it. Is it supposed to be a Choose Your Own Adventure?

Also, you oppose porn, so you... transcribed a porn video to story form?

 

[Cagivagurl]

You're right, our opinions are valid. That doesn't mean they can't be challenged, and your reasons to say porn is the worst is based upon rushed generalizations and stigma that only does more harm than good. I didn't even mention non-consensual sex.

There was once a time in which a difference of opinion was a good thing, but with the advent of the Internet, no one's willing to drop down their egos, because every single one of your messages has the same thing: "this is my opinion."

I'm not trying to change your mind, but your attitude is already telling that you're not willing to see what isn't on the spotlight because it is your opinion.

Absolutely agree... our opinions are valid... Both sides of the argument...
I base my opinions on may things. Not generalisations.
There have been many, hundreds probably. Investigative reports into the dark underworld that runs the porn industry.
I'm not gonna post them. They exist, and they're not hard to find. If you're interested.
I believe that people need to voice their concerns openly. Sexual exploitation is here. It exists, people can pretend it's all rosy and lovely. The truth is far different...
People are forced into it... Many at the threat of death...
I will always fight against that.
I do so by voicing my concerns, and my opinions...
I am not trying to reduce your voice, or take away your right to say what you think.
That is a precious gift.
On this issue, we stand on different sides of a vast divide.

Cagivagurl

 

[Djmac1031]

no woman ever came from getting a facial -

I once wrote a story where a young woman mentions she had an orgasm during a facial, but it was less about the physical act of it and more about her mental and emotional excitement over the acts she was getting up to.

and of course its a sex fantasy story so things tend to get exaggerated.

 

[MelissaBaby]

W

Like more women like rape porn than men do you mean?

You left your King exposed - what was I meant to do, not check it?

You know that this isn’t a competition, right?

 

[SimonDoom]

Like more women like rape porn than men do you mean?

Apples and oranges.

Cagivagurl is confidently making a sweeping statement of fact about an entire industry and condemning it on that basis. She offers no evidence at all to support this sweeping generalization.

I'm not doing anything of the sort.

I made it clear that my statement was tentative.

Based on my tentative belief, I don't make any judgments about the industry or other people. I tentatively conclude only this: that while there appears to be the perception among critics of the nonconsent category that it is playing to male fantasies of raping others, the evidence seems to be, on balance, the contrary: the fantasy for which there is the strongest evidence is the fantasy of being raped, not of raping.

My opinion is based on SOMETHING--reading that I've done. What is Cagivagurl's opinion based on, at all?

Here's a link to the Wikipedia page on rape fantasies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_fantasy. There's plenty of factual support for the popularity of rape fantasies (being raped, not raping) among women and, surprisingly, men as well. There's very little on that page about fantasies of raping others. I did some quick searching and found very little. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it DOES appear that there's less substantiation of the prevalence of fantasies of raping others than of the prevalence of fantasies of being raped, and this is true for both women and men.

 

[Astrotrain]

As a male sub I've had fantasies of being raped by a beautiful woman and a lot of femdom stories are non consentual. A femdom matriarchy where women have enslaved all men is a classic setting. The anti kink crowd always seem to forget about us when they're whipping up fear about CNC.

 

[FrancesScott]

Apples and oranges.

I make reasoned extrapolations
He mistakes correlation for causation
They make wild and unevidenced speculations

 

[FrancesScott]

As a male sub I've had fantasies of being raped by a beautiful women and a lot of femdom stories are non consentual.

I’d be equally interested in the psychology of women who fantasize about raping men femdom as I am in the psychology of men who fantasize about raping women. I’d equally be interested in gay men who fantasize about raping other gay men.

I’m interested in what goes on in the head of people (of any gender or orientation) who fantasize about raping others. I don’t exclude any group.

It’s totally foreign to me the concept of getting aroused by the thought of destroying and degrading another human. But I’m trying to understand it, not that anyone seems willing to explain.

 

[Cagivagurl]

Apples and oranges.

Cagivagurl is confidently making a sweeping statement of fact about an entire industry and condemning it on that basis. She offers no evidence at all to support this sweeping generalization.

I'm not doing anything of the sort.

I made it clear that my statement was tentative.

Based on my tentative belief, I don't make any judgments about the industry or other people. I tentatively conclude only this: that while there appears to be the perception among critics of the nonconsent category that it is playing to male fantasies of raping others, the evidence seems to be, on balance, the contrary: the fantasy for which there is the strongest evidence is the fantasy of being raped, not of raping.

My opinion is based on SOMETHING--reading that I've done. What is Cagivagurl's opinion based on, at all?

Here's a link to the Wikipedia page on rape fantasies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_fantasy. There's plenty of factual support for the popularity of rape fantasies (being raped, not raping) among women and, surprisingly, men as well. There's very little on that page about fantasies of raping others. I did some quick searching and found very little. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it DOES appear that there's less substantiation of the prevalence of fantasies of raping others than of the prevalence of fantasies of being raped, and this is true for both women and men.

Do not twist my words.
I never said my comments were factual.
I couldn't have been clearer. What I offered was my opinion. How I see it. Nothing more.... It is my view, my impression...
If you want to do a little research. There have been many investigative reports into the porn industry. They aren't hard to find...
You offered an opinion. As did I.
We disagree, whish is fine. We are adults... Please do not misrepresent my comments to others....

Cagivagurl

 

[Bramblethorn]

There's very little on that page about fantasies of raping others. I did some quick searching and found very little. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it DOES appear that there's less substantiation of the prevalence of fantasies of raping others than of the prevalence of fantasies of being raped, and this is true for both women and men.

I suspect it would be hard to collect accurate data on that one, because people are going to be shy about admitting to something like that.

It’s totally foreign to me the concept of getting aroused by the thought of destroying and degrading another human. But I’m trying to understand it, not that anyone seems willing to explain.

"Human brains are weird and complicated" isn't a very satisfying explanation but it might be the only one you're going to get.

Human sexuality in general often defies explanation. We can sometimes find social or physiological factors that contribute. But for all the effort that people have put into questions like "what makes some people attracted to women and others to men?" we still aren't very close to a comprehensive answer.

That doesn't mean it's not worth asking these questions, but the fact that somebody can't answer doesn't necessarily mean they're deliberately being uncooperative or concealing something nefarious.

Why do people like scary movies, rollercoasters, fiery-hot chili?

 

[Astrotrain]

Ok, when I'm fantasizing about it I'm immobilized for some reason (i.e. I'm in hospital in traction, conveniently injured in a way that means I can't move but not in any pain that would distract from the sexy time) and the nurses take advantage of me. I'm saying no, this isn't proper, I don't want this, and the nurse looks down at my throbbing erection, grins and says "liar!" and has her wicked way with me. I'd think women with rape fantasies would be the same way, nobody actually wants a horrific traumatizing experience.

 

[FrancesScott]

I'd think women with rape fantasies would be the same way, nobody actually wants a horrific traumatizing experience.

Then it’s not a rape fantasy, or a noncon fantasy, it’s more of a D/s fantasy. Rape is traumatic by definition. When people claim many women have rape fantasies, it’s this conflation that is at work.

 

[DynamicFigure]

Mud wrestling

 

[Astrotrain]

Then it’s not a rape fantasy, or a noncon fantasy, it’s more of a D/s fantasy. Rape is traumatic by definition. When people claim many women have rape fantasies, it’s this conflation that is at work.

Well, some people call them ravishment fantasies to emphasize the difference. Going by your definition though, nobody would have rape fantasies because nobody wants to be raped or traumatised by definition.

 

[FrancesScott]

Then it’s not a rape fantasy, or a noncon fantasy, it’s more of a D/s fantasy. Rape is traumatic by definition. When people claim many women have rape fantasies, it’s this conflation that is at work.

It’s like having a murder fantasy where the victim smiles and encourages you to plunge the knife deeper as it feels so good.

 

[FrancesScott]

Going by your definition though, nobody would have rape fantasies because nobody wants to be raped or traumatised by definition.

️️️️️

 

[SimonDoom]

Human sexuality in general often defies explanation. We can sometimes find social or physiological factors that contribute. But for all the effort that people have put into questions like "what makes some people attracted to women and others to men?" we still aren't very close to a comprehensive answer.

I'm reminded of a video I once watched of an interview with quirky physicist Richard Feynman, where the interviewer asks Feynman about magnetism, and specifically "why" two magnets attract each other. And Feynman, at first nonplussed, goes into a long, and ultimately very illuminating, conversation about why "why" questions are so problematic in physics. Because, at bottom, there IS no "why." Ultimately, there's just "what." It's weird and that's the way it is. Human psychology is the same way in this sense.

People like Saw and Hostel movies. They go to the movie theater to enjoy watching people being dismembered and brutally murdered. These are "normal" people, not deviants. That tells you all you have to know. If you're surprised about why some people enjoy rape fantasies, it means you're not paying close enough attention.