Alternatives to Porn, should we try together?

[TheLobster]

I know this may come as a surprise to someone of your intellectual persuasion, but not everyone who disagrees with you agrees with each other.

Dubious allusions to my intellect aside -- sorry, but I can see the shared sentiment here, because it's clearly expressed through likes and other reactions that signify approval. The specific playful usage of "hivemind" might be lost on you, but that doesn't mean I'll buy the common counterargument saying these are different people espousing different beliefs when it's quite evident they are not.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I believe we had this kind of discussion before. That there is abuse behind the scenes of porn movies, I've no doubt about it. But what we see on the screen is not what political correctness or even patriarchy dictates; it's what the market demands. Porn studios more than anyone else cater to the needs of viewership. And as much as I find distasteful most of the visual porn, it's what porn consumers want to see.

So, aside from the behind-the-scenes abuse, which should always be addressed properly and condemned, if we dislike what porn is, visual or this written one, we only need to look in the mirror to condemn it.

 

[SimonDoom]

I find it amusing how the hivemind consensus arrived on in this thread consists of two contradictory claims.

That on one hand, porn is all fine and peachy, that is not harmful at all, and that all that porn actresses and other sex workers really need is the waning and eventual disappearance of the stigma surrounding their profession.

But on the other hand, porn is also the main if not only source of the allegedly degrading (and thus presumably harmful?) tropes like facials, and these are a no-no and we should turn up our collective noses at it and those who enjoy them.

I know consistency is a rare commodity around here in general, but this instance struck me as particularly interesting.

I wouldn't characterize the attitudes in this forum as exhibiting a "hivemind." Quite the contrary, there's a diversity of conflicting opinions.

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't say "porn is all fine and peachy," any more than I would say the entertainment industry as a whole, or any industry, is fine and peachy, because there are examples of abuse and harm in every industry.

I would say this: there's nothing inherently immoral or harmful about consenting adults sexually doing what they want to with their bodies, and that includes having sex, having sex for money, and creating erotic content for distribution and profit. At the same time, there are plenty of examples of people being harmed while participating in these activities. There are examples of people being harmed drinking water or working in an accounting office, so the mere proof of incidence of harm doesn't prove that an activity is inherently bad or harmful.

As to the second point, I have nothing against facials (back to point one: if the participants are consenting adults and they like it, there's no cause for someone else to complain; they can choose not to look).

 

[FrancesScott]

There is a real problem, but that problem is being used by people with an agenda that goes way beyond keeping women safe (and often ends up making women less safe) as an excuse to push a culture war.

This

It was maybe not the OP’s intention, but the ‘saving fallen women’ subtext and the adjacency to Project 2025 were both troubling.

Consensual sex is wonderful and a gift. For millennia some have sought to make it dirty and shameful, mostly as a part of a broader control mechanism.

Consensual sex is wonderful. Watching people have consensual sex is wonderful. Porn is no more evil than movies. Sex work is no more evil than office work. It’s highly immoral to characterize people enjoying consensual sex IRL, or watching an exaggerated facsimile of it on a phone, as being bad (sinful).

Women have shit happen to them in all walks of life, where is the crusade to address these problems? Why single out porn?

 

[FrancesScott]

I wouldn't characterize the attitudes in this forum as exhibiting a "hivemind." Quite the contrary, there's a diversity of conflicting opinions.

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't say "porn is all fine and peachy," any more than I would say the entertainment industry as a whole, or any industry, is fine and peachy, because there are examples of abuse and harm in every industry.

I would say this: there's nothing inherently immoral or harmful about consenting adults sexually doing what they want to with their bodies, and that includes having sex, having sex for money, and creating erotic content for distribution and profit. At the same time, there are plenty of examples of people being harmed while participating in these activities. There are examples of people being harmed drinking water or working in an accounting office, so the mere proof of incidence of harm doesn't prove that an activity is inherently bad or harmful.

As to the second point, I have nothing against facials (back to point one: if the participants are consenting adults and they like it, there's no cause for someone else to complain; they can choose not to look).

Hey! We agree totally on something.

His “argument” was a classic straw man one.

 

[MrPixel]

And if so, should we work on this together? Should we find ways to advertise our work?

I hold no position either way. I do have a female porn producer as a minor character in my stories. Her love interest is working hard to steer her away from the more predatory aspects of her business.

What bothers me here is you parachute into the forum with a strongly worded "we" should do something. We don't know you, you don't know us. I realize you're in a tough position dealing with your government's crackdown on pornography, but projecting your situation as actionable on the part of this particular erotica author community is presumptive.

It sounds indeed like I haven’t thought this through enough!

There you go.

 

[SimonDoom]

Hey! We agree totally on something.

LOL. This reminds me of the dippy 90s song Breakfast at Tiffany's, about two people who don't agree on anything except that they like that movie. Which, if you ask me, is a pretty terrible thing to pick as the one thing you agree on. It's not a great movie, although Audrey Hepburn is always nice to look at. We're doing better than the two people in that song, at any rate.

 

[timmy02294197]

I apologize for the aggression, then. Your OP read as very American in the 'whoops, I guess I'll vote for fascists to protect women' kind of way I have the displeasure of witnessing on a daily basis over here. My trigger finger is a little twitchy.

The point stands, but my tone was uncalled for. Bad shit happens in the porn industry, no doubt, but it happens more often than not because people still view sex workers as sub-human (police being the most egregious offenders), not because something is inherently wrong with the work itself. Throwing up your hands and calling the whole thing evil because of some bad shit you heard about just ends up hurting the people doing the work, because it pushes it further into the shadows.

Oh don't worry about it We have our own struggles here against fascism, for women's and LGBTQIA+ rights... and we're tired too. See Italy, Poland, Hungary and the UK, as a starter, if you're interested.
Indeed, your point does stand, thanks for making it. Also looks like I've got some podcasts and blogs to educate myself which is cool. I didn't think this post was going to go this way at all, but I'm glad it did!

 

[FrancesScott]

LOL. This reminds me of the dippy 90s song Breakfast at Tiffany's, about two people who don't agree on anything except that they like that movie. Which, if you ask me, is a pretty terrible thing to pick as the one thing you agree on. It's not a great movie, although Audrey Hepburn is always nice to look at. We're doing better than the two people in that song, at any rate.

Yeah - any other actress in that movie and totally unremarkable. I think Hepburn straddled the divide in that women wanted to be her and men to be with her (though some women wouldn’t have said no either ).

 

[Bramblethorn]

I concur about checking out Holly Randall's podcast. I also recommend looking up Aellagirl. She has worked as an escort, a cam model, an OnlyFans model, and she's been very successful at it. She was raised in a fundamentalist Christian family, so her perspective is interesting. She's highly intelligent, too.

I think Stoya has moved on to other things now, but she had some interesting pieces back in the day. She was also the first woman to publicly accuse James Deen, so nobody could reasonably accuse her of being an apologist for the industry.

Mistress Matisse is also worth a look; she mostly writes about being a professional dominatrix but has occasionally discussed doing full service sex work early in her career.

Brooke Magnanti, FKA Belle de Jour, blogged about working as a call girl to pay her way through a doctorate.

There are also various Reddit forums where sex workers talk about their work.

 

[FrancesScott]

As to the second point, I have nothing against facials (back to point one: if the participants are consenting adults and they like it, there's no cause for someone else to complain; they can choose not to look).

Facials are purely visual. They can be demeaning to the person receiving, or they can be a great photo to remember just how naughty you once were. Same as spanking can be abuse or exquisite fun for the receiver.

They obviously do nothing much directly to any erogenous zones - no woman ever came from getting a facial - and they don’t have the shared intimacy / sensory aspect of simply CIM / swallowing.

But as a visual? Which is why they are so prevalent in porn.

Speaking of which no woman ever came through a guy ejaculating over (as opposed to in) her pussy. It’s one for the cameras again.

 

[Astrotrain]

And what about that Sabrina Carpenter album cover, huh? The common consensus seems to be female submissives are putting women in danger.

 

[KittyOfSteele]

Women have shit happen to them in all walks of life, where is the crusade to address these problems? Why single out porn?

Because moralists gotta moral! It's much easier to single out the sex industry as a whole for their issues because sex is bad and you should feel bad about having sex, but when the other industries like the film industry, the music industry, or even the finance sector has their share of similar, if not, worse controversies... It's always just individuals, and never the whole industry.

Besides, the crusade for women is misplaced. Every knight under that banner is often fighting against the wrong thing, thus ends up doing more harm than good, and this is coming from someone calling herself "chevaleresse." They may have good intentions, but so was the dictatorship I live by when they banned porn, failed to successfully ban it, then followed through a crackdown ten years after the ban, and now the enforcement of that law is addressed nearly exclusively on LGBTQ+ individuals, but after that 2023 scandal things are very low-profile as of now. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and I've seen this exact idiom materialize all over throughout world history.

 

[FrancesScott]

And what about that Sabrina Carpenter album cover, huh? The common consensus seems to be female submissives are putting women in danger.

I don’t think Sabrina is a sub. And focusing on one female artist causing men to put women in danger isn’t really a very sound approach. What was the excuse given by rapists before Sabrina was born?

 

[timmy02294197]

a strongly worded "we" should do something. We don't know you, you don't know us.

Fair enough! I'm happy anyway that I'm hearing thoughts from outside my echo chamber. Sorry for the strongly worded we!

 

[FrancesScott]

Because moralists gotta moral! It's much easier to single out the sex industry as a whole for their issues because sex is bad and you should feel bad about having sex, but when the other industries like the film industry, the music industry, or even the finance sector has their share of similar, if not, worse controversies... It's always just individuals, and never the whole industry.

Besides, the crusade for women is misplaced. Every knight under that banner is often fighting against the wrong thing, thus ends up doing more harm than good, and this is coming from someone calling herself "chevaleresse." They may have good intentions, but so was the dictatorship I live by when they banned porn, failed to successfully ban it, then followed through a crackdown ten years after the ban, and now the enforcement of that law is addressed nearly exclusively on LGBTQ+ individuals, but after that 2023 scandal things are very low-profile as of now. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and I've seen this exact idiom materialize all over throughout world history.

Must have been awful to live through!

 

[FrancesScott]

I'm hearing thoughts from outside my echo chamber

What a refreshing and humble perspective. Many could learn from that attitude.

 

[timmy02294197]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions

Yeah you're 100% right and your previous post was clear about that too! Realising how bad my idea was... Never a very comfortable position to be in but hey, that's where I am

 

[timmy02294197]

What a refreshing and humble perspective. Many could learn from that attitude.

The thing is I discussed this with my friends, and none of us came up with any of what you all are saying. We did have debates and disagreements, but really, none of your points were raised! So yeah I guess there's a lot to learn out there. Anyway, thanks, that's kind.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Oh hi everyone, thanks for all your opinions on this. It sounds indeed like I haven’t thought this through enough!
I might be biased because I’m French, and here we’ve had many occurrences recently of directors, producers getting arrested, and studios closed because they were involved in human trafficking, assault, and the like. And yes indeed I thought because it’s written it doesn’t hurt anyone. But it looks like in a way I was wrong. I’ll just go back to writing what I like to read then!

Not at all! It’s a perfectly valid concern and a very common opinion. I find some video erotica (I’m calling it that because, to me, it’s all porn) very demeaning. Yes, I would hate to be the women in those. That hardly is reason to shoot down the entire industry, any more than the existence of some sweatshops (which are deplorable) makes the entire economic system abhorrent.

Moreover, I hardly think written erotica is as a class free from moral taint. There’s some pretty degrading stuff out there (here too). I no longer write some genres because I don’t like how they make me feel.

The contradictory nature of public opinion WRT porn/erotica borders on near-Orwellian doublethink. People who advertise themselves as devote feminists will argue that women should be free to do whatever they please with their bodies, while at the same time decrying prostitution and erotica as evil and demeaning. Yes, some is, but it very much depends on what one is looking at.

So, again, it’s a fair question. Please don’t roll over and surrender just because some of us here don’t agree. Be true to your own opinion.

 

[Bramblethorn]

And what about that Sabrina Carpenter album cover, huh? The common consensus seems to be female submissives are putting women in danger.

This reminds me of that time I bought "Nevermind" and the cover art made me go fishing for babies with dollar bills.

 

[FrancesScott]

This reminds me of that time I bought "Nevermind" and the cover art made me go fishing for babies with dollar bills.

I hope the comment was in jest. But who knows?

 

[shizzz]

I think that AI and VR will be able to soothe several types of this kind of abuse. As well as some of the trolling that goes on out there. And cwt calling/stalking

 

[ElectricBlue]

LOL. This reminds me of the dippy 90s song Breakfast at Tiffany's, about two people who don't agree on anything except that they like that movie. Which, if you ask me, is a pretty terrible thing to pick as the one thing you agree on. It's not a great movie, although Audrey Hepburn is always nice to look at. We're doing better than the two people in that song, at any rate.

I'm reading through this exchange between you and @FrancesScott , and I'm reminded of the ending of Casablanca.

Should we book a room .

 

[onehitwanda]

Audrey Hepburn is always nice to look at

https://64.media.tumblr.com/099871a0e1d6fd529470b364189fc7bb/tumblr_mvslklDWUM1sp65mqo1_500.gif