A question of style (US)

[NotWise]

With KeithD gone, I wonder if there's anyone left to answer this question. I've encountered this case a couple times. In US style, punctuation goes inside quotation marks, but I have this sentence:

Grace scowled at Zelda and said, “That’s her way of saying ‘thank you.’”

There are nested quotation marks. The outer pair sets off what Grace says. The inner pair sets off the "thank you" that Grace thinks Zelda should have delivered, but didn't. As written, I've placed the full stop inside the inner quotation. Would it be better, or at least acceptable, to do this:

Grace scowled at Zelda and said, "That's her way of saying 'thank you'."

I find the latter to be clearer.

In this instance I could remove the inner quotation marks and readers will still understand it. There are other cases where they might not, so the general question remains.

 

[StillStunned]

The full stop goes between the two sets of closing quotation marks. It's not part of the "thank you" quote, it's part of the entire direct speech clause.

 

[iwatchus]

I am far from an authority and am eager to hear a better answer, but I just chose the same solution as you prefer in my recent submission.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

You could avoid the whole conundrum by using italics instead of nested quotation marks.

 

[MrPixel]

I struggle with this all the time, and supposedly know the rules. My reading of the style manuals is thus:

• If the sentence ends in a single word you would normally use with quotes, it would be, "I was going to hug him, but I glanced down and noticed his 'attributes'."
• If the sentence ends in a quote of a phrase or sentence, it is, "Oh, geez, Tom, what he said was, 'She implied we were going have breakfast together.'"

Where I get hung-up is when the "single word" is a compound or hyphenated phrase like "slight-of-hand". I've been applying the single-word rule in those cases.

 

[NotWise]

You could avoid the whole conundrum by using italics instead of nested quotation marks.

I use italics for emphasis. so that risks confusion.

 

[NotWise]

I struggle with this all the time, and supposedly know the rules. My reading of the style manuals is thus:

• If the sentence ends in a single word you would normally use with quotes, it would be, "I was going to hug him, but I glanced down and noticed his 'attributes'."
• If the sentence ends in a quote of a phrase or sentence, it is, "Oh, geez, Tom, what he said was, 'She implied we were going have breakfast together.'"

Where I get hung-up is when the "single word" is a compound or hyphenated phrase like "slight-of-hand". I've been applying the single-word rule in those cases.

Thanks. That sounds right to me, despite my preference.

I'd probably also treat a hyphenated phrase as a single word.

 

[WittyUserName]

With KeithD gone, I wonder if there's anyone left to answer this question. I've encountered this case a couple times. In US style, punctuation goes inside quotation marks, but I have this sentence:

Grace scowled at Zelda and said, “That’s her way of saying ‘thank you.’”

There are nested quotation marks. The outer pair sets off what Grace says. The inner pair sets off the "thank you" that Grace thinks Zelda should have delivered, but didn't. As written, I've placed the full stop inside the inner quotation. Would it be better, or at least acceptable, to do this:

Grace scowled at Zelda and said, "That's her way of saying 'thank you'."

I find the latter to be clearer.

In this instance I could remove the inner quotation marks and readers will still understand it. There are other cases where they might not, so the general question remains.

I struggle with a lot of these rules myself. I know that the correct way is to always end the sentence inside the quotations. So it should be "That's her way of saying 'thank you.'" I mean, you could avoid the issue entirely by saying "That's her way of expressing her gratitude." or something like that, but like you said, you won't always want to change things. Personally, I think "That's her way of saying 'thank you'." looks ridiculous. I know it's definitely incorrect, but I'm not sure how many would care. I used to hate using a comma before a dialogue tag(ex. Thank you," he said) but I know that's the right way to do it. You'll get used to it if you just keep doing things the accepted way.

 

[MrPixel]

I use italics for emphasis [my... uh... emphasis]. So that risks confusion.

Oh, that's a touchy one and is correct. I don't know where the habit of using quotes for emphasis came from. To wit:

• He arrived at the party with his "wife".
• He arrived at the party with his wife.

See what I mean?

 

[SimonDoom]

KeithD's greatest contribution to me personally as an author was turning me on to the Chicago Manual of Style, which is the closest thing there is to a definitive reference guide to style in American fiction. I always have the 17th edition in hard copy sitting 2 feet away from me when I write at my desk. I use it often when questions like these come up.

According to CMOS (17th) section 6.11, the correct answer to this is that the period should lie inside the closing single quote mark AND closing double quote mark. The "correct" answer is the first one, not the second one, although many will think the second answer makes more sense.

CMOS gives this example as a correct way to do it on p. 368:

"Admit it," she said. "You haven't read 'The Simple Art of Murder.'"

This example seems pretty clearly analogous to the example NotWise gave in the opening post. It may not seem intuitively right, but it is standard American style.

 

[AG31]

I spent a few hours this weekend editing a couple of documents about teaching phonix to reading challenged kids. There were sounds enclosed in slashes. There were sounds enclosed in quotes (as above). There were "She said 'fox'." Which could be interpreted as a report about the word she said, or as a quote of her speech. On top of it all, the ultimate reader was a stickler for the Oxford comma. Life is not easy if you take punctuation too seriously...

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

With KeithD gone, I wonder if there's anyone left to answer this question. I've encountered this case a couple times. In US style, punctuation goes inside quotation marks, but I have this sentence:

Grace scowled at Zelda and said, “That’s her way of saying ‘thank you.’”

There are nested quotation marks. The outer pair sets off what Grace says. The inner pair sets off the "thank you" that Grace thinks Zelda should have delivered, but didn't. As written, I've placed the full stop inside the inner quotation. Would it be better, or at least acceptable, to do this:

Grace scowled at Zelda and said, "That's her way of saying 'thank you'."

I find the latter to be clearer.

In this instance I could remove the inner quotation marks and readers will still understand it. There are other cases where they might not, so the general question remains.

Clearer?
You're discussing the idiosyncrasies of niche punctuation in a language with regional variations...

Seriously, in American English, I believe "...'thank you.'" is technically correct, but I don't think anybody i going to storm the castle is you choose the other. A quick Google search told me that, and it's on the interwebs of things, so...

 

[NuclearFairy]

Oh, that's a touchy one and is correct. I don't know where the habit of using quotes for emphasis came from. To wit:

• He arrived at the party with his "wife".
• He arrived at the party with his wife.

See what I mean?

I think because of the sarcastic air quote thing most people associate using quotation marks to emphasize something as making it have a more sarcastic meaning, but I'm not sure.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Oh, that's a touchy one and is correct. I don't know where the habit of using quotes for emphasis came from. To wit:

• He arrived at the party with his "wife".
• He arrived at the party with his wife.

See what I mean?

I use single quotes because I've found italic and bold and other such 'enhancements' are hit or miss when a story get published here.

 

[MrPixel]

According to CMOS (17th) section 6.11, the correct answer to this is that the period should lie inside the closing single quote mark AND closing double quote mark. The "correct" answer is the first one, not the second one, although many will think the second answer makes more sense.

I wonder if this changed somewhere along the way. My CMOS days were back in the '70s and '80s - 50 years ago. I can't even find my copy now. Maybe I'm misremembering, but that's where I think I got the single word exception. The "thank you" thing makes my head spin. To me it's a compound phrase, and would be subject to the single-word rule.

I use single quotes because I've found italic and bold and other such 'enhancements' are hit or miss when a story get published here.

How are you submitting? I've always uploaded .doc and .docx files, and have never had a formatting loss. Granted, I highlight that in my note to Laurel, but the file name extension should make that obvious anyway.

 

[iwatchus]

I use single quotes because I've found italic and bold and other such 'enhancements' are hit or miss when a story get published here.

I have only had 18 publications so far here, but I use Italics pretty regularly without any problem. How do younger them? Or have I just been lucky so far?

 

[SimonDoom]

To my way of thinking, the American rule--always put the period inside the quote marks--makes less logical sense, but it has the virtue of simplicity. You don't have to think about it, so discussions like the one we're having in this thread become unnecessary. Just put the period inside, and you'll be OK.

When it comes to semicolons, however . . .

 

[NotWise]

To my way of thinking, the American rule--always put the period inside the quote marks--makes less logical sense, but it has the virtue of simplicity. You don't have to think about it, so discussions like the one we're having in this thread become unnecessary. Just put the period inside, and you'll be OK.

When it comes to semicolons, however . . .

semicolons in quotes?

 

[MrPixel]

semicolons in quotes?

Same treatment as periods, but you don't capitalize the following semi-sentence.

And what are you doing using semis in casual fiction? 'Tain't natural!

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I wonder if this changed somewhere along the way. My CMOS days were back in the '70s and '80s - 50 years ago. I can't even find my copy now. Maybe I'm misremembering, but that's where I think I got the single word exception. The "thank you" thing makes my head spin. To me it's a compound phrase, and would be subject to the single-word rule.



How are you submitting? I've always uploaded .doc and .docx files, and have never had a formatting loss. Granted, I highlight that in my note to Laurel, but the file name extension should make that obvious anyway.

Almost exclusively uploading Word docs with the exception of my 750 word pieces. There have been a few instances where the formatting didn’t make it.

 

[NotWise]

Same treatment as periods, but you don't capitalize the following semi-sentence.

And what are you doing using semis in casual fiction? 'Tain't natural!

In place of a conjunction, just like the good lord intended.

 

[MrPixel]

I think because of the sarcastic air quote thing most people associate using quotation marks to emphasize something as making it have a more sarcastic meaning, but I'm not sure.

It's always been that way. The quotes are to represent sarcastic quotation of a questionable assertion stated as fact.

 

[MrPixel]

In place of a conjunction, just like the good lord intended.

Ah. The old run-on sentence excuse. (Just pullin' your chain, NW.)

 

[SimonDoom]

Same treatment as periods, but you don't capitalize the following semi-sentence.

And what are you doing using semis in casual fiction? 'Tain't natural!

Actually, it's different. Quotation marks go INSIDE the semicolon.

Example:

That's her way of saying, "Thank you."

BUT

That's her way of saying, "Thank you"; she has an entirely different way of saying, "Piss off."

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Actually, it's different. Quotation marks go INSIDE the semicolon.

Example:

That's her way of saying, "Thank you."

BUT

That's her way of saying, "Thank you"; she has an entirely different way of saying, "Piss off."

So, in the context of this specific discussion, it would be:

"That's her way of saying, 'Thank you'; she has an entirely different way of saying, 'Piss off.'"