Our Bad Book Club is taking on Coleen Hoover -- How is she so successful

[YmaOHyd]

I'll have to disagree about the blind spot for non-white audiences. One of the problems with big budget cinema is making it too generic to try and serve EVERY audience. You are counting on the box office from all over the globe so you have to sanitize it to every taste.
The Lit equivalent of removing every fetish and making it completely vanilla sex to appeal to the widest possible audience. Then you have true vanilla, just about everyone is OK with it, but it really isn't anyone's favorite.

What I mean is that there are movies made for families, but not for Black families or Latino families. White audiences are the default for the studios. There are movies made for couples, but not movies made for Black couples. To the extent that the romantic comedy still exists, it's a genre starring white actors. Part of why Crazy Rich Asians was so successful is that it targeted a specific audience, like a Tyler Perry movie, but was good enough to break out outside that audience. There's very limited targeting of mid-budget cinema towards Black or Latino audiences (partly because mid-budget cinema is dying out and moving to streaming).

 

[Cagivagurl]

Personally, I prefer to try to emulate my favoured authors, than troll through something I dislike looking for lessons learned. Trolling through something I dislike is exactly WHY I have over sixty published books in both fiction and nonfiction. Emulating only your favorite authors is to become a mimic with no style of your own. You agree that you are no writer and, apparently, never will be one. I shudder at the thought of you in a college literature class required to read sometimes musty old novels and short stories to understand the building blocks of English and world literature. Would you tell your professor, "I won't read Nathan Fromme even though it is assigned because I don't like Edith Wharton? Or I don't want to discuss Uncle Tom's Cabin because it is preachy and I don't like religion in my novels? At some point, if you wish to be a writer (and you clearly do NOT) you have to read a lot of dreck, encounter outmoded belief systems, or encounter questionable racial or moral issues. Thank you for admitting that you are stubborn, uncritical and void of originality with no desire to grow in any way. You claim all I have is an opinion. Further you claim that since all I have is an opinion, I cannot make any judgements of any writer or their work. I have opinions BECAUSE I am well-read and have devoured a TON of literature both good and bad. I've trained my pallate while you insist in only scarfing down pablum. I'm really sorry for you. I can't imagine living, as you do, without an active, well-fed imagination.

LOL
Fear not for my imagination.
Concern yourself more for yourself...
Believe it or not, I have an education... I spent many hours scrolling through engineering papers. My profession requires it. For my pleasure, I choose to read things that do as suggested. Bring me pleasure... Doing anything else appears silly...

I don't recall admitting stubbornness... Am I critical? Yes, most definitely. Do I share them unrequested? No... For I am polite. I remember being taught. "If you don't have something nice to say. Keep your mouth shut."
I practise that. Offering opinions as fact when all you really have is opinion is arrogance...
As an Engineer, I deal in facts... Proven undeniable facts. You throw around a lot of accusations, just very few facts...

Signwriting requires imagination, and original thoughts. As does writing. Good or bad is for others to decide. I write for my own enjoyment. I lay no claims on it's quality, simply that it brings me joy.

You my dear friend are entitled to your opinion. As am I...
At the end of the day, even though it obviously pains you. Yours is of no more value than mine...

Mine is my on, not taught or fashioned.
I developed my palate by reading things I like...
I love to read, it is a passion I have had for the entirety 0f my life...
Yes, I have been influenced by my favoured authors. As I imagine you have travelled similar roads.

Feel not sorrow for me, for I am happy.
Delusions of grandeur I shall leave for others.
My meagre palate fulfils me. My tastes are mine, my creations belong to me...

You have read a lot between the lines throughout our conversation. Making claims on my behalf...
Perhaps you should learn to read the actual lines... Bragging doesn't really offer anything. You may have indeed scaled Everest, sailed single handed around the globe. I don't really care...
All I know is you have strong opinions... Long may that last...

LOL... btw I am very stubborn... So well spotted. At least you got that right.

Cagivagurl

 

[Wifetheif]

The point is that you don’t want me to offer ANY opinions or judgements re anyone’s writing. If your opinion means nothing more than mine, then I am free to pontificate at will as are you! You object to the very principle of stating an opinion on writing I don’t like. You tell me if I don’t like it don’t read it, How about you avoid the difficult math to come up with an engineering solution. No, you have to power through the equations — just as I do in reading what I personally don’t like. I want to understand what the fuss is all about. I want to find out why a certain author has bestseller after bestseller with sub standard prose and cliched characters and very old tropes. I’m exercising the intellectual muscles I need to be a better, mote concise writer. Did you take shortcuts to you engineering degree? Did you opt out of the classes you didn’t like or viewed as pointless because you didn’t like them. Of course not. Telling me not to express an opinion is a quest to silence me and limit my abilities as a writer. What would you opinion be of an engineer who chose not to raise his voice when he discovered a flaw in the floorplans that would result in the collapse of a building because” My mother told me if I can’t say anything nice don’t say anything,” your opinion of them would be very low. Yet you would prefer that I not say anything. See how full of shit you are?

 

[alohadave]

Oh my god, will you two shut the fuck up about qualifications and opinions.

 

[Cagivagurl]

The point is that you don’t want me to offer ANY opinions or judgements re anyone’s writing. If your opinion means nothing more than mine, then I am free to pontificate at will as are you! You object to the very principle of stating an opinion on writing I don’t like. You tell me if I don’t like it don’t read it, How about you avoid the difficult math to come up with an engineering solution. No, you have to power through the equations — just as I do in reading what I personally don’t like. I want to understand what the fuss is all about. I want to find out why a certain author has bestseller after bestseller with sub standard prose and cliched characters and very old tropes. I’m exercising the intellectual muscles I need to be a better, mote concise writer. Did you take shortcuts to you engineering degree? Did you opt out of the classes you didn’t like or viewed as pointless because you didn’t like them. Of course not. Telling me not to express an opinion is a quest to silence me and limit my abilities as a writer. What would you opinion be of an engineer who chose not to raise his voice when he discovered a flaw in the floorplans that would result in the collapse of a building because” My mother told me if I can’t say anything nice don’t say anything,” your opinion of them would be very low. Yet you would prefer that I not say anything. See how full of shit you are?

The one thing I most certainly do not want to do is silence you.
I am more than happy to read and try to understand your opinion. It is incredibly valuable, and I implore you to share them. In that way, we all learn.
All I ask is... Share them for what they are. Your thoughts and perceptions...
You are an educated human being, of course you have opinions, and they shall probably differ from mine.
All I ask is you quantify your interpretations as that. Your opinion...
I do not want to see you pushed aside or ignored. I have enjoyed our discussion.
As a human being myself, I enjoy hearing and seeing other peoples points of view. How, could we prosper without differing views?
Remember, in the absence of fact... All we have is opinion, hypothesis, ideas, and questions...
Our ideologies do take a different path. You want to judge, whereas, I prefer to ponder, and consider. If after due consideration. I have nothing useful to add. I remain silent...

An old saying I heard somewhere. "You cannot make your candle burn brighter by blowing others out."

Engineering, and science deal in tangible facts. Not opinion. There are no shortcuts in the academic world. project management depends on making crucial decisions. For that we study the critical facts... Buildings are not built on opinion.

Cagivagurl

 

[Cagivagurl]

Oh my god, will you two shut the fuck up about qualifications and opinions.

Apologies...
we have rabbited on a bit...
Sorry for ruining your reading.

LOL... I did say I was stubborn... Apparently it wasn't a joke...

Cagivagurl

 

[TheLobster]

Is Margaret Atwood a better writer than Tom Clancy? Hint: It largely depends on your personal taste. Authors like Clancy and Michael Crichton were able to inject complex, realistic technology into a well written, interesting story. That takes talent. The fact that someone doesn't enjoy those types of stories doesn't make them lesser authors.

I'd certainly take a well-written thriller that's a little too heavy on complex nerdy minutia over a novel-length author tract from a raving feminist lunatic who wrote it mainly to indulge in a breeding/domination fetish and got away with it because it fit certain political narratives.

Heck, even Dan Brown would be my preference. He put a lot of outright historical nonsense into his formulaic writing but at least he made the effort to make it sound plausible and entertaining.

Look where the two Avatars sit, for example. First and third place, yet the only good thing about those movies was the visuals and special effects. The story, the depth of characters, those were all atrocious. And those were huge hits.
Even the last three horrendous Star Wars movies are huge hits by the metrics of commercial success.

I'd agree that box office success is far from a good metric of artistic quality, but I'd also say the same about the pronouncements of snobby, self-important and often agenda-driven critics.

For a decent metric of artistic quality, I'd rather go for a broad sample of opinions coming from regular people who are also film buffs -- at least one who care enough to leave rating and/or review on websites such as IMDB. The top of their list of 250 best movies would be very difficult for me to argue with (and you want to quibble how Masterpiece A has placed #100 while Commercial Trash B is #50, consider that their ratings might differ only by 0.1-0.2).

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I'd certainly take a well-written thriller that's a little too heavy on complex nerdy minutia over a novel-length author tract from a raving feminist lunatic who wrote it mainly to indulge in a breeding/domination fetish and got away with it because it fit certain political narratives.

It's an amazing novel but it's hardly her best work. Holy skim-read-whitewash, Batman. You don't have the slightest clue what Atwood is about.

 

[MrHereWriting]

How do you measure that success?

The same way in which men measure their penises: To their satisfaction.

In the open market of the creative/entertainment industry

1. Money
2. Awards
3. The amount of people who are envious of you and jealous of you.
4. Does your work support your lifestyle?
5. Long after you and your peers have passed away, who is remembered the most?

 

[Kelliezgirl]

It's an amazing novel but it's hardly her best work. Holy skim-read-whitewash, Batman. You don't have the slightest clue what Atwood is about.

Seems like he knows exactly what Atwood is about.
On what basis do you declare it an "amazing novel"?

It's more a case of matching a certain group of people's squick as we say around here, so they give it a high rating despite it not bring particularly good work.

 

[Wifetheif]

The one thing I most certainly do not want to do is silence you.
I am more than happy to read and try to understand your opinion. It is incredibly valuable, and I implore you to share them. In that way, we all learn.
All I ask is... Share them for what they are. Your thoughts and perceptions...
You are an educated human being, of course you have opinions, and they shall probably differ from mine.
All I ask is you quantify your interpretations as that. Your opinion...
I do not want to see you pushed aside or ignored. I have enjoyed our discussion.
As a human being myself, I enjoy hearing and seeing other peoples points of view. How, could we prosper without differing views?
Remember, in the absence of fact... All we have is opinion, hypothesis, ideas, and questions...
Our ideologies do take a different path. You want to judge, whereas, I prefer to ponder, and consider. If after due consideration. I have nothing useful to add. I remain silent...

An old saying I heard somewhere. "You cannot make your candle burn brighter by blowing others out."

Engineering, and science deal in tangible facts. Not opinion. There are no shortcuts in the academic world. project management depends on making crucial decisions. For that we study the critical facts... Buildings are not built on opinion.

Cagivagurl

You said repeatedly the if I didn't have anything nice to say don't say anything.-- THAT IS a call to silence me! It cannot be construed as anything else. You are a disingenuous hypocrite. Telling me to not read what I don't like is an attempt to gain some sort of high ground. Science deals in fact. Unquestionably true. Just as English has firm grammar rules, accepted sentence structure, clearly defined tenses and point of views. To tell me that all I offer is opinion is to dismiss the fact that much of English is as definable and has as many rules as a science like engineering. It may be a soft "science" but the overlap is NOT coincidental! One can point out the flaws in a sentence just as one can point out flaws in floorplans and YOU know it! I can give you any number of reasons why "Udly Love" by Coleen Hoover objectively sucks worse than the vacuum of space but you don't want to hear that. At NO point did you ask for examples you just said that all I was stating was an opinion and that my opinion meant nothing. Indeed you cited your mother, "If you can't say any thing nice...." implying that my very criticism was somehow "wrong" or "mean spririted" I took those as personal attacks becuase they are. You were never interested in my opinion or you would have asked why I held it. You never said, "cite me an example" you never asked "Why do you hold this opinion?" No you simply siad "Don't read what you don't like" and "If you can't say anything nice..." You are not intersted in my opinion or you would have asked for clarification. You were only interested in being argumentative.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Seems like he knows exactly what Atwood is about.
On what basis do you declare it an "amazing novel"?

It's more a case of matching a certain group of people's squick as we say around here, so they give it a high rating despite it not bring particularly good work.

What makes you say it's not good? And no you can't say it's a plotless fetish thing, since there is only one scene of that in the entire narrative and complex plot, so no you don't have that. So tell me, what is it?

Or don;t bother, since you're just making up bullshit to be contrary and pick another fight.

 

[Cagivagurl]

You said repeatedly the if I didn't have anything nice to say don't say anything.-- THAT IS a call to silence me! It cannot be construed as anything else. You are a disingenuous hypocrite. Telling me to not read what I don't like is an attempt to gain some sort of high ground. Science deals in fact. Unquestionably true. Just as English has firm grammar rules, accepted sentence structure, clearly defined tenses and point of views. To tell me that all I offer is opinion is to dismiss the fact that much of English is as definable and has as many rules as a science like engineering. It may be a soft "science" but the overlap is NOT coincidental! One can point out the flaws in a sentence just as one can point out flaws in floorplans and YOU know it! I can give you any number of reasons why "Udly Love" by Coleen Hoover objectively sucks worse than the vacuum of space but you don't want to hear that. At NO point did you ask for examples you just said that all I was stating was an opinion and that my opinion meant nothing. Indeed you cited your mother, "If you can't say any thing nice...." implying that my very criticism was somehow "wrong" or "mean spririted" I took those as personal attacks becuase they are. You were never interested in my opinion or you would have asked why I held it. You never said, "cite me an example" you never asked "Why do you hold this opinion?" No you simply siad "Don't read what you don't like" and "If you can't say anything nice..." You are not intersted in my opinion or you would have asked for clarification. You were only interested in being argumentative.

OK....
Let me again try to explain. A writer, in this instance Coleen Hoover, has chosen to break some of the rules of grammar. That may be an established fact... Lets say I accept your premise, and we move on...
The fact she chose to break those rules doesn't mean the book sucked. She may have chosen to break the rules for stylistic reasons. Without reading it. I cannot offer an opinion, on whether it worked or not.
The fact the book is popular, means she succeeded in her goal, to write and publish it. Her goal was probably to make money. If she achieved that goal, then she succeeded.
You didn't like it... Fair enough. You are free to say that. It is your right... You can say, I didn't like it for many reasons, and highlight the reasons why. You are offering the world your opinion. I didn't like it because it was grammatically incorrect." That is your god given right to express that opinion...
It is though, just your opinion. Yes, based on facts....
What I will not accept is you stating unequivocally as a statement that the book sucked. Unless you add... (In my opinion).

I do not seek any moral high ground. I merely stated my opinion. This is my opinion... Nothing more.

I never "Told" you to do anything. I offered you an option. "If you don't like it, and it upsets you. Don't read it."

The flaws in sentence structure, can and are often overlooked for artistic reasons. Many famous authors have chosen that path. It is the artists choice. what harm is done? Very little, it may offend the grammar police, but if it works in the story, then OK...
If an engineer overlooks or chooses to ignore rules of construction. People die...

Let me assure you, my comment on voicing a negative opinion, is my philosophy. I don't judge other peoples choices. I may not agree with said choices, and in response may offer my opinion, but that is all it is... Me offering you my opinion, regarding your opinion....
Little is achieved by throwing barbs.
Others in this forum are clearly bored with our discussion. Perhaps we could continue it in private?
I am interested in continuing the discussion, but perhaps a public forum is not the best avenue???
I shall leave that in your hands.

Cagivagurl

 

[Kelliezgirl]

What makes you say it's not good? And no you can't say it's a plotless fetish thing, since there is only one scene of that in the entire narrative and complex plot, so no you don't have that. So tell me, what is it?

Or don;t bother, since you're just making up bullshit to be contrary and pick another fight.

You've argued it was great, make the case.
I asked you for proof that Clancy was unrealistic spectacle and you ignored it while claiming Atwood was totally realistic.
Back up your claims.

The pacing is terrible.
Her sentence structure is needlessly convoluted and she writes like a high-school kid trying to pad her word count by over describing everything she sees.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

You've argued it was great, make the case.
I asked you for proof that Clancy was unrealistic spectacle and you ignored it while claiming Atwood was totally realistic.
Back up your claims.

First, when some PRICK who follows me around and throws sand at me in the playground just to start fights, it's not worth my time.

But, if you really want me to school this, prove to me that you really want a discussion first. You're the one claiming that Atwood is nothing but a plotless fetishist. You back up your claim first. Then it will be worth my time to tear it apart.

Otherwise, fuck off.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

First, when some PRICK who follows me around and throws sand at me in the playground just to start fights, it's not worth my time.

But, if you really want me to school this, prove to me that you really want a discussion first. You're the one claiming that Atwood is nothing but a plotless fetishist. You back up your claim first. Then it will be worth my time to tear it apart.

Otherwise, fuck off.

Get down off the cross, we need the wood.
No one here buys into your perpetual victimhood complex.

I disagreed with you in a reasonable way. You can't support your position so you devolve into making it some personal thing.

Allow me to burst your bubble. People can legitimately disagree with you. It isn't "argumentative" to espouse a position other than yours.
You are incredibly hypocritical accusing people of "following you around" when you made a snide remark about Cagivagurl in this very thread when you weren't at all part of the conversation.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Get down off the cross, we need the wood.
No one here buys into your perpetual victimhood complex.

I disagreed with you in a reasonable way. You can't support your position so you devolve into making it some personal thing.

Allow me to burst your bubble. People can legitimately disagree with you. It isn't "argumentative" to espouse a position other than yours.
You are incredibly hypocritical accusing people of "following you around" when you made a snide remark about Cagivagurl in this very thread when you weren't at all part of the conversation.

Fail. Just as I thought. Go back to the playground.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Fail. Just as I thought. Go back to the playground.

Darling, you really need to get a thicker skin and stop trying to turn everything into a dick measuring contest.

As for the Handmaid's Tale...


The pacing is terrible.
Her sentence structure is needlessly convoluted and she writes like a high-school kid trying to pad her word count by over describing everything she sees.


Now, go back and answer the question you ignored when you asserted her fever dream was so much more realistic than Clancy. Give an example of how any of his early works are unrealistic spectacle as you asserted.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Darling, you really need to get a thicker skin and stop trying to turn everything into a dick measuring contest.

You definitely have a bigger dick than I do. : P

The other option in my offer still stands. ; )

 

[Kelliezgirl]

You definitely have a bigger dick than I do. : P

The other option in my offer still stands. ; )

Well, based on the way you try to rub yours on everyone...

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Well, based on the way you try to rub yours on everyone...

Consider this a teabagging then. And stfu for your oen good. You can't win at a serious discussion on literature, and you also can't win if you want to devolve to insults. Just warning you.

 

[YmaOHyd]

No one is supposed to win if a thread devolves into insults because that's not supposed to happen.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Consider this a teabagging then. And stfu for your oen good. You can't win at a serious discussion on literature, and you also can't win if you want to devolve to insults. Just warning you.

I'm not sure you are even capable of a serious discussion on literature, and you started with the insults.
Do keep playing the victim though, we all enjoy your theatrics.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I'm not sure you are even capable of a serious discussion on literature, and you started with the insults.
Do keep playing the victim though, we all enjoy your theatrics.

(yawn) I thought even you could do better than that.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

(yawn) I thought even you could do better than that.

Well based on your scores here on Lit, you certainly can't.