Trump fucks up again. Ukraine negotiation goes sideways

[ChloeTzang]

Another "unexpected" side effect. Poland's first. Which will be the next European country to decide to go nuclear. Taiwan won't say anything but they did a lot of work on this with South Africa back when South Africa built their own nukes. I suspect Finland might quietly go down the Israelu nuke route, as will Ukraine. Germany?

The ramifications and spin-offs of Trump's foreign policy are only beinning to be seen.

 

[Lance_Castro]

Ukraine Estonia Lithuania Latvia, all soviet republics putin wants back.

Eastern ukraine’s a good start, especially if it brings the USA in a troika with Russia and China against … the world.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Ukraine Estonia Lithuania Latvia, all soviet republics putin wants back.

Eastern ukraine’s a good start, especially if it brings the USA in a troika with Russia and China against … the world.

Yep - and that land mine treaty that the do-gooders all pushed is gone by the wayside too. Now that history has restarted and Fukuyama has been proven a complete moron, as was obvious if you have any understanding of homo sapiens and our affinity for conflict, every country neighboring Russia has discovered that not having thick minebelts along their borders and at defensive chokepoints is rather foolish.....

Ah well, all the liberal chickens are coming home to roost at once. So much for the "peace dividend" and cuts in defence spending. We'll end up spending far more as a result of all that nonsense. Seems like Finland and Sweden were the only ones that didn't get completely suckered in.

Note: American political scientist Francis Fukuyama argued that with the ascendancy of Western liberal democracy—which occurred after the Cold War (1945–1991) and the dissolution of the Soviet Union (1991)—humanity has reached "not just ... the passing of a particular period of post-war history, but the end of history as such: That is, the end-point of mankind's ideological evolution and the universalization of Western liberal democracy as the final form of human government."

 

[MajorRewrite]

Ah well, all the liberal chickens are coming home to roost at once.

We all knew you’d find a way to blame “liberals” for Trump’s capitulation to Putin.

 

[ChloeTzang]

We all knew you’d find a way to blame “liberals” for Trump’s capitulation to Putin.

Nah. I blame Trump for Trump. He's scum. To quote, "disgusting, a liar, with no conscience."

I was utterly and completely wrong about him. His decisions have directly led to the unnecessary deaths of hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers in the last couple of days, not to mention civilians targeted in terror attacks.

He's downright evil.

 

[Bn2f]

Yep - and that land mine treaty that the do-gooders all pushed is gone by the wayside too. Now that history has restarted and Fukuyama has been proven a complete moron, as was obvious if you have any understanding of homo sapiens and our affinity for conflict, every country neighboring Russia has discovered that not having thick minebelts along their borders and at defensive chokepoints is rather foolish..

Ukraine Estonia Lithuania Latvia, all soviet republics putin wants back.

Eastern ukraine’s a good start, especially if it brings the USA in a troika with Russia and China against … the world.

The fact that Lance as well as any and all the other dipshit RW's here are not and cannot turn and sternly object to Chloe's turn to object more to trump and his Ukraine policies just fuckin speaks to how successful 'she' has become as a chaos agent. Their only play is to continue to meekly wat thumbs up all their other posts in hopes of still somehow hooking up with a Chinese foreign troll.

I've changed! Yeah, I DO FUCKIN NEED AN APOLOGY FROM THIS MEMBER ON THEIR PROMOTING THE FUCKER! Before you see me agreeing with this supposed American.

 

[Bn2f]

Nah. I blame Trump for Trump. He's scum. I was utterly and completely wrong about him. His decisions have directly led to the unnecessary deaths of hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers in the last couple of days,

You're on probation.
I will continue to monitor before I allow you off house arrest.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Starlink is going to lose it's European business next, as well as Tesla sales collapsing across Europe.

Now, a what if.

What if the USA - i.e. Elon Musk - turns off the StarLink service for Ukraine?

Up front: this would be a major problem for the ZSU. No doubt about this.

The fact is, the functionality of automatic tactical management systems (ATMS’, also ‘C4ISR’ systems) in service with the ZSU like Delta are dependant on StarLink.

However, this would not be as severe a blow as one might think. After all: there is no StarLink service inside Russia and thus the ZSU is fighting in Kursk Oblast without any kind of StarLink service and have been since the summer of last year.

Also there's no doubt that presently there is no other service that could offer a similar quality in terms of the volume of information provided at the required speed. After three years of massive investments into StarLink (by Ukraine and by partners), this is no surprise. Thus, if Musk turns off StarLink for Ukraine, it would take to at least 2027, if not by 2030, for this to be completely replaced.

However, even more important is the greed factor: there are around 100,000 StarLink terminals in service in Ukraine. Some 60% of these are paid for by Ukrainians at favourable rates, the rest are paid by foreign partners (Poland being a major contributor). Musk is earning millions from this business. At this time he’s heavily indebted, while he's also busy losing lucrative contracts (for example in Mexico and all of South America, where one idiotic tweet caused him a multi-billion dollar hit to future revenue), he’s not really in a position to say anything like, ‘OK, I do not need Ukraine any more’.

Last but not least: who knows what Musk is doing with all the intel he can, at least in theory, collect about Ukraine via the StarLink…

That said, I think it’s more than obvious: not only to Ukraine, but to the rest of Europe, that Europe needs their own - or, and better yet: a joint - service of (at least) similar capabilities. Now, more than ever before. And that’s urgent, too.


Now,

 

[Lance_Castro]

Western liberal democracy managed to whittle down russia and subvert china through trade and debt dependency.

Sleepy Joe played a big role in that over the past decades, btw.

He was even able to make progress against Russia as a demented old man.

Americans are a fundamentally stupid, insular, entitled people thanks to decades of free trade wins.

So by turning to trump, theyve turned on themselves for at least the next 2-4 years.

too bad. Nice work, Vlad!

 

[ChloeTzang]

You're on probation.
I will continue to monitor before I allow you off house arrest.

Me? A Chaos Agent? Oh my goodness. Nope. I've always supported Ukraine right from the start of this war.

I make no bones about liking a lot of what Trump stood on and is doing within the US, but his foreign policy is a fucked up nightmare that to me, outweighs anything else he is doing that's beneficial. For me, stabbing Ukraine in the back the way he has done and is doing is crossing the line irrevocably and I'll vote based on that in future. The rest of the GOP is sitting on their collective asses, almost all of them saying nothing, which makes them complicit in what he's doing, with one or two exceptions.

 

[ChinoMoreno]

 

[whiskeytangofoxtrot]

View attachment 2508873

trump family values, disgusting

 

[Bn2f]

Me? A Chaos Agent? Oh my goodness. Nope. I've always supported Ukraine right from the start of this war.

I make no bones about liking a lot of what Trump stood on and is doing within the US, but his foreign policy is a fucked up nightmare that to me, outweighs anything else he is doing that's beneficial. For me, stabbing Ukraine in the back the way he has done and is doing is crossing the line irrevocably and I'll vote based on that in future. The rest of the GOP is sitting on their collective asses, almost all of them saying nothing, which makes them complicit in what he's doing, with one or two exceptions.

View attachment 2508832

STFZU. We. Told. You. So.

We told you so doesn’t even apply to you. You knew what you were doing. You know what you’re doing now. Russia, Ukraine, and trump have been intertwined since he came down that elevator.
Take me giving you credit as I do - you’re smarter than the rest of the rubes here to now just suddenly discover this.

 

[MajorRewrite]

View attachment 2508873

The Trump family and MAGA public support for Russia still surprises me, although it certainly shouldn’t. My head just rejects it as a real world possibility.

 

[Deleted member 1215945]

View attachment 2508916

 

[ChinoMoreno]

The Trump family and MAGA public support for Russia still surprises me, although it certainly shouldn’t. My head just rejects it as a real world possibility.

Bro the family that betrays together stays together!

 

[RobDownSouth]

Americans are a fundamentally stupid, insular, entitled people thanks to decades of free trade wins.

And therein lies the ultimate issue.

A certain subset of Muricans are scared shitless of the outside world, and want to retreat to the comfu insularity of isolationism, which was last popular around the 1930s, and instrumental in the rise of you-know-who.

 

[KimAwakened]

Would Melanoma like what's on the tapes, Donny boy?

 

[Lance_Castro]

And therein lies the ultimate issue.

A certain subset of Muricans are scared shitless of the outside world, and want to retreat to the comfu insularity of isolationism, which was last popular around the 1930s, and instrumental in the rise of you-know-who.

i don’t think they’re smart enough to fear on the basis of that many facts, plus history and geography.

I think they’re just ignorant.

 

[Lance_Castro]

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[ChloeTzang]

Some Russian channels do not believe that the cessation of U.S. aid to Ukraine will lead to a collapse of the front, as Ukraine produces the necessary weapons to hold the line, thanks to financial assistance from Europe. They argue that a collapse becomes more likely if Ukrainian society becomes divided. In this sense, the Trump administration’s intentions—including talks with the so-called "opposition"—become clearer: to fragment Ukrainian society, provoke “elections,” and make it easier for Russia to impose its will.

In this sense, Trump's strategy to fragment Ukraine has backfired badly, and all this has done is unite the Ukrainian people and strengthened support for Zelensky. And even if Russia got what it wanted, it would have decades of guerrilla warfare and urban combat - as it has already in the occupied territories. Ukrainians understand scorched earth better than anyone. And Trump withholding aid has actually succeeded in uniting the EU and spurred them to militarize and increase support for Ukraine. The Nordic and Baltic States in particular, as well as Poland, understand the threat from Russia.

The only thing Trump's approach here will do is leave the USA isolated, and tank our sales of defence-related equipment and services - and everything the US manufactures has analogs that are often actually better or more cost effective - or they can be replicated. What's the bets the Ukrainians are hacking the Patriot system and designing and building an analog as we speak.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Europe's defense industry had a nice rest, but now it's time to make ridiculous barrels of money crushing Russian invaders.

The cards that Trump says Ukraine doesn't have
- Thales: Drones, Bushmaster, Hawkei, Starstreak, Crotale, Ground Master radar, all sorts of other military stuff LOL
- Rheinmetall: Yeah, well: Leopard, KF-51, Marder, Puma, Fuchs, Lynx, Boxer, SPG's, ammo, air defence, etc etc etc
- BAE
- Hensoldt
- Leonardo
- Saab
- NAMMO - lots and lots and lots of 155mm ammo
- Dassault Aviation

 

[ChloeTzang]

So much for "peace" huh, Donny?

 

[Deleted member 1215945]

View attachment 2509089

 

[ChloeTzang]

This is what happens when you go rogue, Donny. You start to become irrelevant. EU will back Ukraine, and Trump will come out of this looking and smelling like a traitor in Putin's pockets, and nothing will get rid of that stink, even if Trump changes direction now.