What a disappointment this forum is

[HisArpy]

I yhink
Though that his point is valid. Rich people frequently engage in tax avoidance and tax sheltering strategy that is unavailable to the middle class. Hence when you tax a rich person you’re not taxing 30% of their assets. You may be taxing a quarter or less of their assets. This is why a flat tax actually hurts the middle class more. I think that point does have validity.

A flat tax which is lower than the tax they're currently paying is called a benefit.

 

[Nicefella]

It is not.


I never advocated for a flat tax.

I’m sorry @ll74 - I thought he did.

 

[Chernosoth]

Nearly all of government and the business world is now run by a management class, a vast number of highly educated and highly paid people who are experts in nothing. They don't know much, or anything at all, about what they manage. The inevitable result is broad failure of government and corporate action. Their models of what they believe should happen bear no resemblance to what happens. The cognitive dissonance is driving them apeshit, so they could be ranting and blaming for a long while on the internet, until they're all unemployed, bankrupt, homeless, dead, etc.

 

[icanhelp1]

Is it fair that a CEO makes 1000x what a janitor does? Surely he doesn't work 1000x longer or harder?

A CEO’s responsibility is huge and the market bares those compensation levels. That’s capitalism.

 

[icanhelp1]

Nearly all of government and the business world is now run by a management class, a vast number of highly educated and highly paid people who are experts in nothing. They don't know much, or anything at all, about what they manage. The inevitable result is broad failure of government and corporate action. Their models of what they believe should happen bear no resemblance to what happens. The cognitive dissonance is driving them apeshit, so they could be ranting and blaming for a long while on the internet, until they're all unemployed, bankrupt, homeless, dead, etc.

The equation is simple, they tax more, they spend more and we get less.

The government thinks they can fund everything, they can’t. Congress has lost its way. They have no idea how to manage money, how to prioritize, why? Because it’s not their money. They play on people’s emotions spending on things they shouldn’t. They get elected to office poor and leave rich while leaving in their wake ruination by a thousand cuts and half ass measures.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Nearly all of government and the business world is now run by a management class, a vast number of highly educated and highly paid people who are experts in nothing. They don't know much, or anything at all, about what they manage. The inevitable result is broad failure of government and corporate action. Their models of what they believe should happen bear no resemblance to what happens. The cognitive dissonance is driving them apeshit, so they could be ranting and blaming for a long while on the internet, until they're all unemployed, bankrupt, homeless, dead, etc.

I've met a lot of senior engineers who were on the ball, senior creatives, and even senior managers and senior PR flacks.

The really clueless ones were always the MBAs--the boardroom guys who didn't know how to do anything except look at spreadsheets, shake hands, and wheel and deal. There's an art to keeping the dim execs at bay, giving the real workers space to get things done without being called into useless strategy meetings or jerked around by the latest management trend.

 

[YDB95]

A CEO’s responsibility is huge and the market bares those compensation levels. That’s capitalism.

Is that responsibility really 1,000 times that of a janitor?
We both know there's no set way to measure such a thing. But one measure you can use is, do companies with obscenely high-paid CEOs actually perform better? The record shows the answer is no, there is no correlation whatsoever.

 

[Bray123]

This is the fallacy everyone uses to justify tax disparity. Just because you're poor rich doesn't mean you should be allowed to avoid paying YOUR FAIR SHARE.

It's also known as FREELOADING.

FTFY.

 

[icanhelp1]

Is that responsibility really 1,000 times that of a janitor?
We both know there's no set way to measure such a thing. But one measure you can use is, do companies with obscenely high-paid CEOs actually perform better? The record shows the answer is no, there is no correlation whatsoever.

The value isn’t up to you. Finding quality CEOs in competitive markets is a lucrative business.

I’m not sure what the metrics would be to compare a janitor’s responsibility to let’s say Jamie Diamond.

Professional athletes make millions, why?, because that’s what the market bares. Again capitalism.

 

[Nicefella]

I've met a lot of senior engineers who were on the ball, senior creatives, and even senior managers and senior PR flacks.

The really clueless ones were always the MBAs--the boardroom guys who didn't know how to do anything except look at spreadsheets, shake hands, and wheel and deal. There's an art to keeping the dim execs at bay, giving the real workers space to get things done without being called into useless strategy meetings or jerked around by the latest management trend.

Without the spreadsheets handshaking, wheeling and dealing (aka negotiating) and strategy, the creatives would be sucking eggs. Please educate yourself on corporate structures. Believe me if CEOS weren’t needed they would be the first ones out the door. The reason we pay them as handsomely as we do is because they manage the entire organization not just their own job. Is Warren Buffet a dim exec? Perhaps we should let him sit by and let the “real workers” do their job. Btw who the bell are these real workers?

 

[Nicefella]

Is that responsibility really 1,000 times that of a janitor?
We both know there's no set way to measure such a thing. But one measure you can use is, do companies with obscenely high-paid CEOs actually perform better? The record shows the answer is no, there is no correlation whatsoever.

The problem with your analysis is that a janitor cannot manage market share, investor relations and operations. He can shine a floor and fix a faucet among other janitorial things.

But the janitor cannot save a failing corporation by restructuring debt, reducing redundancy and negotiating down contractual liabilities all while keeping a recalcitrant BOD and rogue investors at bay. So yeah I’d pay a CEO 1000 times more than a janitor because his worth is 1000 times more.

 

[YDB95]

The problem with your analysis is that a janitor cannot manage market share, investor relations and operations. He can shine a floor and fix a faucet among other janitorial things.

But the janitor cannot save a failing corporation by restructuring debt, reducing redundancy and negotiating down contractual liabilities all while keeping a recalcitrant BOD and rogue investors at bay. So yeah I’d pay a CEO 1000 times more than a janitor because his worth is 1000 times more.

Even if I agreed it was that simple (I don't, but that's beside the point), the fact remains that higher paid CEOs do not have a track record of leading their companies to proportionately greater success than companies with more modestly paid CEOs. Which does suggest the exorbitant salaries we see so many CEOs being paid nowadays are not warranted.

 

[jomar]

A CEO’s responsibility is huge and the market bares those compensation levels. That’s capitalism.

Sure, and here we are with doors and wheels falling off off Boeing planes

 

[MarcvsAvrelivs]

Is there anyone here that can discuss issues without personal attacks? Without calling each other names? Without calling all links misinformation?

So many potentially interesting and serious topics just die in the fire of abuse

I think not, but behavior mimics political affiliation. On one hand, you have reason and on the other hand you have the polity of emotion. Thus, the tantrums of children from the gimme generations asking why should I go anything for my country? clearly, it should do everything for me.

And is not that the point? Killing discussion in favor of "everybody I know thinks that?"

Which always leads to to lament of the 70s, "How did he get elected? Nobody I know voted for him!"

 

[MarcvsAvrelivs]

Sure, and here we are with doors and wheels falling off off Boeing planes

CEOs perform maintenance? I thought that was union members.

 

[jomar]

Every person I've met who's in senior management has been pretty clueless about what the workers at their companies actually do.

Lol, that’s pretty much the whole premise of the tv show Undercover Boss

 

[jomar]

CEOs perform maintenance? I thought that was union members.

Boy that point flew right over your head

 

[MarcvsAvrelivs]

Maybe the problem lies with the messenger's inability to elucidate his thoughts.

 

[jomar]

Maybe the problem lies with the messenger's inability to elucidate his thoughts.

I’ll assume that’s directed at me because of proximity. If you need my comment further explained all you have to do is ask.

Though by not quoting you’re dropping alt clues, fwiw

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

I think not, but behavior mimics political affiliation. On one hand, you have reason and on the other hand you have the polity of emotion. Thus, the tantrums of children from the gimme generations asking why should I go anything for my country? clearly, it should do everything for me.

And is not that the point? Killing discussion in favor of "everybody I know thinks that?"

Which always leads to to lament of the 70s, "How did he get elected? Nobody I know voted for him!"

The Republican Party has been running purely on emotion for years. They never propose policies to address the nation’s problems. They only offer symbolic gestures to stoke the grievances of their base.

 

[icanhelp1]

Sure, and here we are with doors and wheels falling off off Boeing planes

Intellectually challenged, disconnected and dishonest.

 

[jomar]

Intellectually challenged, disconnected and dishonest.

I see you missed the point as well. Typical.

 

[icanhelp1]

I see you missed the point as well. Typical.

Boeing’s CEO resigned. The majority of CEOs are up to the job. Boeing’s situation is an exception not the rule. Quality control is the ever present headache that CEOs worry constantly about.

 

[jomar]

Boeing’s CEO resigned. The majority of CEOs are up to the job. Boeing’s situation is an exception not the rule. Quality control is the ever present headache that CEOs worry constantly about.

As he should have. The point being a bit twofold. YDB95 pointed out that CEOs paid far more than employees aren’t a guarantee of excellent steerage. And to your point about quality control being an issue at Boeing, that is correct and you can trace that directly back to when safety conscious Boeing bought McDonnell Douglas and the MD CEO was appointed CEO of the merged companies (that retained the Boeing name) and the company started paying attention to creating shareholder value at the expense of safety, and over time here we are. And an industry like that safety cannot take a backseat to anything, which falls on the culture and goals the CEO sets.

I’m sure some CEOs are worth a lot of money and have the expertise to navigate a company out of danger, but on the whole, I doubt most are worth those soaring salaries. So I wouldn’t say Boeing is the exception, it’s more like the most glaring example.

 

[Lazaran]

Boeing’s CEO resigned. The majority of CEOs are up to the job. Boeing’s situation is an exception not the rule. Quality control is the ever present headache that CEOs worry constantly about.

^
(Quoted for posterity and stupidity)

ineedhelp1 need look no further than their orange messiah’s CEO for another reason CEO’s pay is waaaaaay out of line. - Many are common criminals, and very likely affiliated with organized crime.



This is just a short list of CEOs that have been convicted of a financial crime:

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/markets/10-ceos-who-went-boardroom-cell-block-flna783944



And remember, not a single CEO responsible for the 2008 financial crisis was criminally prosecuted for "reasons":

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...cuted-for-their-role-in-the-financial-crisis/



So, yeah, CEOs pay is waaaaaay out of line for maaaaaany reasons.



JFC

SAD!!!