The Tsotha improvement project thread

[Tsotha]

As far as offering any other insights, I have nothing.

That was a lot, Tod. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on it, line-by-line. I could jump in and tell you what I intended with each element — What is the pot? Why are the thin limbs? — and so on. But ultimately, it doesn't matter. You found your own meaning, and it seems my "bonsai framework" is leading people more or less toward the story I intended.

I guess line 2 is a cheat. However, I'd rather have the reader understand what I'm talking about than be "artistic" and fail to communicate.

I like your thoughts on the roots grown too big, representing simultaneous attraction/need & compression/strangulation.

if pushing the envelope is defined by this malleable barrier then in a metaphor context could it not be used as a ways of describing one person in a relationship attempting to push it in another direction? thus creating that malleable barrier? in this instance the barrier will not yield and therefore is the restraint or envelope while the test area is the confines of the bonsai tree itself (or the relationship).

I like the idea of something pushing back, not a hard limit, but indeed, it doesn't work well with a "pot", which is something that sets hard limits.

"planted in a pot too small"

brings in the feeling of being restrained, or confined, giving the relationship a "too small space, no room to be what "N" seems to think it should be, no room for the seeds potential.

That is one meaning, yes. The pot can be circumstances, limits set by one or the other person in the relationship (or both). This is another element of "choose your own meaning"...

"sustaining thin, atrophied limbs"

seems to me this is where the relationship is falling apart, thin and atrophied seem to point towards relationship failure but it is sustaining, or barely hanging on.

I intended thin as a good thing. There are several things I'd change, now, after everyone's input. butters suggested "delicate" instead of thin, and I'd definitely use that, now. The idea I was trying to convey in that line is that of something lighthearted, but that fails to develop to something real/solid. A process in which things don't really develop, and nothing is learned — they just stay still.

Thank you again, Tod.

 

[Tsotha]

Bear with me, text is the same. Thought I saw something, suppose the top was box like, with a two line tail, or even one.

This is a hack job on my part as far as editing, but for now, just look at it, a box, an escape. In fact, as I remembered it, I thought it did look like that.
"You" I would keep, and despite it being a metaphor, you use "like"...

It would again point the reader toward the meaning. - you scare me. Don't over do it, it is a game.

If I had to access the reaction of an audience in something like new poems, this would be top third, the other two bad ones, yeh, his and mine, bottom third. this has traction, the other two, well we won't go there.

You are too kind, 12. I'm glad that (overall) people seem to have followed the path I intended. You are right, though — I'm being heavy handed in pointing people toward the meaning. It's cheating, and I shouldn't overdo it.

It's too bad that Senna Jawa is incapable of providing feedback. It seems he was trying to say something about that. His input might have been useful, but it was too hard to hear his feedback over the sound of how awesome he is.

 

[HarryHill]

bookmarking for further reading. I've missed a lot may take some time to catch up.

 

[Tsotha]

bookmarking for further reading. I've missed a lot may take some time to catch up.

It's all about one poem, Harry... and the bazaar (where I was putting my stuff) is gone.

 

[butters]

It's all about one poem, Harry... and the bazaar (where I was putting my stuff) is gone.

that's a pity, tso

but the value of threads like these is priceless, imho

 

[Tsotha]

that's a pity, tso

but the value of threads like these is priceless, imho

I have a partial backup here. I'll see if I can restore it next weekend.

 

[butters]

 

[HarryHill]

Just barely started catching up. got all the way to your reply to butters comments with her version/suggestion quoted directly above it and realized that it looked like half a tree of a poem. if you center the lines and work on selected line length, the result would be quite striking. There are some here that write 'sculptured poetry (Tess comes to mind immediately) It would add an extra dimension to the poem Oh, and by the way, bonsai do bear fruit.

 

[Tsotha]

Reading the trunk part might get a bit annoying, though...

Oh, and by the way, bonsai do bear fruit.

Ah, indeed. However, the flowers and fruits do not follow the scale of the tree, so a miniature apple tree would look stunted with oversized fruit. I do not know if there are bonsai which include flowers and fruit, but I do not doubt it. There are probably species of plants which naturally present small flowers, such that they'll look "normal" when the tree's growth is constrained.

In any case, I do not think anyone plants bonsai because they want a source of fruit. Easier to just let them grow normally.

 

[twelveoone]

You are too kind, 12. I'm glad that (overall) people seem to have followed the path I intended. You are right, though — I'm being heavy handed in pointing people toward the meaning. It's cheating, and I shouldn't overdo it.

It's too bad that Senna Jawa is incapable of providing feedback. It seems he was trying to say something about that. His input might have been useful, but it was too hard to hear his feedback over the sound of how awesome he is.

Disagree, I don't think you did. What I suggested is a form of psychological impressment. A visual preview. Pointers lead, they do not pander. As an example if you can find level three there is a poem by Tzara, based on off page pointers, it requires a lot from the reader (too much for the average reader), but it is there. It is as real Japanese haikus work, except in that case it is culturally ingrained.
All meaning is off page, the "gimmick" is getting the reader to retrieve it. To return and verify. You are not writing jingles. You are seeking a reasonable engagement.
As per private conversation, and a further thought, presenting this as a "poem" forces people to think of it as a "poem", it is a poem already, touch it up and let them discover it as a poem not a "poem".
On the other hand you can have it pureed, Puréed‎ Poetry is very good if you don't have teeth.
Bonsai
Potted in silence.
Bye, bye, banzai

see, operative word is Potted, poem only legal in Colorado, though.

 

[Tsotha]

Disagree, I don't think you did. What I suggested is a form of psychological impressment. A visual preview. Pointers lead, they do not pander. As an example if you can find level three there is a poem by Tzara, based on off page pointers, it requires a lot from the reader (too much for the average reader), but it is there. It is as real Japanese haikus work, except in that case it is culturally ingrained.

Like a meme. You need the right apparatus to be "in", and understand. Otherwise, you read and it doesn't connect.

You are not writing jingles. You are seeking a reasonable engagement.
As per private conversation, and a further thought, presenting this as a "poem" forces people to think of it as a "poem", it is a poem already, touch it up and let them discover it as a poem not a "poem".
On the other hand you can have it pureed, Puréed‎ Poetry is very good if you don't have teeth.

Someone's gotta think of the toothless, man.

Indeed, if I fail to establish a connection, I've completely failed (my intention). I'm willing to sacrifice some "pure poetry" mumbo jumbo in order to achieve what (I think) is most important in poetry.

Bonsai
Potted in silence.
Bye, bye, banzai

see, operative word is Potted, poem only legal in Colorado, though.

I guess you're making an example of what was said above, about requiring a lot from the reader... I take it that you do not live in Colorado, then — thus, potted "in silence". But why bye bye banzai?

 

[twelveoone]

Like a meme. You need the right apparatus to be "in", and understand. Otherwise, you read and it doesn't connect.



Someone's gotta think of the toothless, man.

Indeed, if I fail to establish a connection, I've completely failed (my intention). I'm willing to sacrifice some "pure poetry" mumbo jumbo in order to achieve what (I think) is most important in poetry.



I guess you're making an example of what was said above, about requiring a lot from the reader... I take it that you do not live in Colorado, then — thus, potted "in silence". But why bye bye banzai?

You know I like the poem. It is either a good opener or closer poem in a book.
i.e. in context as per PMed example.

It's BOREDOM. Tears have glued its eyes together.
You know it well, my Reader. This obscene
beast chain-smokes yawning for the guillotine —
you — hypocrite Reader — my double — my brother!

— Robert Lowell, from Marthiel & Jackson Matthews, eds., The Flowers of Evil (NY: New Directions, 1963)
...banzai
I was just thinking of you sharing the pot with you-know-who

 

[Tsotha]

Indeed.

Oh, interesting. I read Robert Lowell's version of that segment. The other translations seemed filled with too much affectation. That page is an awesome place to learn French, with the original and so many different translations.

 

[twelveoone]

In any case, I do not think anyone plants bonsai because they want a source of fruit. Easier to just let them grow normally.

suppose they are very tiny people
you know as in
choke cherries crowd the tiny path

 

[Tsotha]

suppose they are very tiny people
you know as in
choke cherries crowd the tiny path

Well, I suppose very tiny people, living in a very tiny planet, could make do with a bonsai. As long as it didn't break under the weight of full sized fruit. Alas, no such thing as a perfect metaphor, it seems.

Choke cherries — I have no idea what those are, beyond what wikipedia just told me. Sour and bitter. I'd rather plant other stuff on my path, thank you.

 

[twelveoone]

Well, I suppose very tiny people, living in a very tiny planet, could make do with a bonsai. As long as it didn't break under the weight of full sized fruit. Alas, no such thing as a perfect metaphor, it seems.

Choke cherries — I have no idea what those are, beyond what wikipedia just told me. Sour and bitter. I'd rather plant other stuff on my path, thank you.

choke cherries crowd the tiny path
is a line, break it in two
choke
cherries
as in poetry virgins soiling New Poems with multiple spew, repeatably, and getting upset when I comment, that maybe a little more thought, a little less verbiage, but since nobody does new poems on a regular basis anymore....

 

[Tsotha]

I would like to thank everyone who offered suggestions, whether I used them or not. You have all given me opportunities to see things I couldn't, before.

I have compiled below the suggestions for alterations. Some have additionally provided their interpretations for the meaning of the poem; thank you for that, too — it's very useful to see through others' eyes, like that, to identify how well the message is being conveyed.

bronzeage
1) Rethink "pushing the envelope"

1201
1) Remove "pushing the envelope"
2) Keep the last three lines
3) Keep the first two lines, end-line rhymes follow into internal rhymes). The repetition of "ee" sounds might be undesirable.
4) Reformat the poem, a "box" and an "escape" (using the last three lines):

You and me, we are like a bonsai tree.
A pretty seed meant for great things
planted in a pot too small. A young trunk
made gnarled by force, sustained by roots
grown too big, too starved, pushing the envelope,
sustaining thin, atrophied limbs, cut again
and again, never meant to bear fruit.

.........................An experiment, perfect in its execution,
.................................perhaps good for exposition.

greenmountaineer
1) Replace the first two lines with: "You and I/ are like a bonsai tree" (internal rhymes instead of end-line)
2) I sense disappointment as the prevailing emotion at the conclusion of the poem; "perfect" doesn't work for me. Neither does "perhaps" work IMO because it suggests tentativeness when, in fact, resignation is a pretty definitive conclusion.

butters
1) Watch out for the sustaining / sustained repetition
2) Replace "thin" with "delicate" (but note that "delicate" doesn't represent the inner strength of a bonsai)
3) Pay attention to gnarled / starved, young / trunk, roots / too
4) Rethink "pushing the envelope"
5) Remove or rethink the last three lines
6) Trimmed (bonsai) version by butters:

On Display

You and me,
a bonsai tree:
pretty seed of destiny
planted in a pot too small,
young trunk gnarled by force,
sustained by roots too starved,
too atrophied,
feeding thin limbs
cut again and again,
never meant to bear fruit.

Angeline
1) Trim, and then trim more
2) Think about every word, every comma

Senna Jawa
1) If there were just one person alone in the poem (instead of "you and me") what difference would it make? I claim that none. And that made the poem weaker (in my humble opinion). There is no direct connection between a single bonsai tree and the fact that there were TWO people.
2) Remove the last three lines

Trimmed version (by Tsotha), as a result of Senna Jawa's 1st suggestion:

A bonsai tree.
A pretty seed meant for great things
planted in a pot too small.
A young trunk made gnarled by force,
sustained by roots grown too big,
too starved,
and thin, atrophied limbs,
cut again and again,
never meant to bear fruit.

Remec
1) Use the truncated version and put "You and me" on the title.

Todski
1) Rethink or remove "pushing the envelope".

HarryHill
1) Center the lines and work on selected line length to create a "sculptured" poem in the format of a tree.

 

[twelveoone]

now it is up to you
what direction do you want?
write to it
change one comma, it affects direction

roots too starved
no fruit
banzai
pot plant
i smoke weed

sorry, couldn't resist, stuck it in the old 3,2,1,2,3 form
(are we set with the stooges? good)
nyuk,nyuk,nyuk

I think its a safe bet the envelope goes

 

[Tsotha]

now it is up to you
what direction do you want?
write to it
change one comma, it affects direction

roots too starved
no fruit
banzai
pot plant
i smoke weed

sorry, couldn't resist, stuck it in the old 3,2,1,2,3 form
(are we set with the stooges? good)
nyuk,nyuk,nyuk

I think its a safe bet the envelope goes

Yo dawg. I put the bonsai in the bonsai,

pushing the envelope

And I still don't know who those stooges are, so no clownery. Check the "30 edits in 30 days" thread, the bonsaied bonsai is in there.

 

[twelveoone]

Yo dawg. I put the bonsai in the bonsai,

pushing the envelope

And I still don't know who those stooges are, so no clownery. Check the "30 edits in 30 days" thread, the bonsaied bonsai is in there.

and here I am trying to bring culture to the masses
well I like, if you feel it's right, it probably is
does it do what you want it to do?
now, you're new, but be aware that writing by committee is marketing, not poetry

looks good

 

[Tsotha]

and here I am trying to bring culture to the masses
well I like, if you feel it's right, it probably is
does it do what you want it to do?
now, you're new, but be aware that writing by committee is marketing, not poetry

looks good

Design by committee sucks, I'm aware. But I must also keep in mind that, being new to this, there is much that I do not see / understand / know.

I have selected the changes that I thought would make the poem better; after making them, I do think it became a better poem.

 

[butters]

Design by committee sucks, I'm aware. But I must also keep in mind that, being new to this, there is much that I do not see / understand / know.

I have selected the changes that I thought would make the poem better; after making them, I do think it became a better poem.

i think you see more than you realise
seeing through so many other eyes can be disconcerting if you're not a fly - are you a fly? you handle it well.

 

[Tsotha]

i think you see more than you realise
seeing through so many other eyes can be disconcerting if you're not a fly - are you a fly? you handle it well.

Well you see, I was creating this teleportation device and a fly went inside with me, so when I left...

 

[butters]

ew....

 

[HarryHill]

Well you see, I was creating this teleportation device and a fly went inside with me, so when I left...

in a strange voice ' help me, help me'