The Second Amendment, Gun Control, and School Shootings.

[bellisarius]

The Second Amendment is quite clear as to what it says and what it means (although there are a few who apparently are saddled with English as a second language that are determined to debate that point. The Supreme Court has ruled that the Second Amendment is an individual right (Heller v District of Columbia) not some group right. Further the court has ruled that right covers military style individual firearms (United States v Miller). The order that the Second Amendment appears in the Bill of Rights is not arbitrary. Nor is it a right given by the government. It, along with all of the amendments in the Bill of Rights are assumed to be the natural rights of man. Beyond the reach of government to grant or deny. The Second Amendment is the guarantor of all of the other rights. Taking the First Amendment as an example, look around the world. In nation after nation you find their governments placing restrictions on their freedom of speech, the religion(s) they choose to practice, and to peaceably assemble. The Second Amendment is the 'teeth' in the Constitution that acts as a brake on the governments ability to infringe on all of those other rights we take for granted.

There are those that would want to do away with the Second Amendment altogether, or severely restrict the right to exercise that right. They couch it in terms of 'Hunting', a factor that was considered by only one state when the Bill of Rights was framed (Pennsylvania), or in other equally restrictive arguments. Over the course of this nations history over one million Americans have given their lives to secure and preserve the rights in the Constitution that make the United States what it is with the liberties that we all enjoy. Those rights are NOT going to be surrendered willingly or without bloodshed no matter what fantasies you may cleave to. The "Gun Control" crowd have willfully ignored the fact that in each and everyone of these recent school shootings multiple laws were broken BEFORE the first life was taken, yet some how they are of the belief that even more laws will 'fix' the problem. The only thing that onerous laws will accomplish is the criminalizing of what are now law abiding citizens, the creation of new black markets, and the fomenting of civil insurrection. In other words they'll have worsened the problem.

The willful taking of a life is murder. The age of the victim is immaterial. A life is a life no matter how it ends and although senseless murders are seemingly the worst of all, it is only the living that are burdened with the problem of trying to make sense of that which makes no sense at all. The firearm used in these senseless murders is merely a tool, an implement. And these murderers are merely the wielder of those tools. Those that are determined to embark on indiscriminate carnage will find a way, and a tool, to do so. These acts of indiscriminate murder are symptoms of a societal problem, a problem that the mere removal of a tool is NOT going to solve..........or even address. As far as I'm concerned anyone that commits murder, and especially indiscriminate murder, is insane. Not even up for debate in my mind. But what drove them to that madness? With rare exception people are not born insane. What are the cues? How to intervene before that individual is too far gone? And when we find the answer to those questions we have to address how we're going to go about dealing with those problems without trampling on the rights of the lawful. We'll find none of those answers in the banning of a tool.

 

[von_Bismarck]

Grampa boxed wine strikes again!

 

[Emerson40]

The Second Amendment is quite clear as to what it says and what it means (although there are a few who apparently are saddled with English as a second language that are determined to debate that point. The Supreme Court has ruled that the Second Amendment is an individual right (Heller v District of Columbia) not some group right. Further the court has ruled that right covers military style individual firearms (United States v Miller). The order that the Second Amendment appears in the Bill of Rights is not arbitrary. Nor is it a right given by the government. It, along with all of the amendments in the Bill of Rights are assumed to be the natural rights of man. Beyond the reach of government to grant or deny. The Second Amendment is the guarantor of all of the other rights. Taking the First Amendment as an example, look around the world. In nation after nation you find their governments placing restrictions on their freedom of speech, the religion(s) they choose to practice, and to peaceably assemble. The Second Amendment is the 'teeth' in the Constitution that acts as a brake on the governments ability to infringe on all of those other rights we take for granted.

There are those that would want to do away with the Second Amendment altogether, or severely restrict the right to exercise that right. They couch it in terms of 'Hunting', a factor that was considered by only one state when the Bill of Rights was framed (Pennsylvania), or in other equally restrictive arguments. Over the course of this nations history over one million Americans have given their lives to secure and preserve the rights in the Constitution that make the United States what it is with the liberties that we all enjoy. Those rights are NOT going to be surrendered willingly or without bloodshed no matter what fantasies you may cleave to. The "Gun Control" crowd have willfully ignored the fact that in each and everyone of these recent school shootings multiple laws were broken BEFORE the first life was taken, yet some how they are of the belief that even more laws will 'fix' the problem. The only thing that onerous laws will accomplish is the criminalizing of what are now law abiding citizens, the creation of new black markets, and the fomenting of civil insurrection. In other words they'll have worsened the problem.

The willful taking of a life is murder. The age of the victim is immaterial. A life is a life no matter how it ends and although senseless murders are seemingly the worst of all, it is only the living that are burdened with the problem of trying to make sense of that which makes no sense at all. The firearm used in these senseless murders is merely a tool, an implement. And these murderers are merely the wielder of those tools. Those that are determined to embark on indiscriminate carnage will find a way, and a tool, to do so. These acts of indiscriminate murder are symptoms of a societal problem, a problem that the mere removal of a tool is NOT going to solve..........or even address. As far as I'm concerned anyone that commits murder, and especially indiscriminate murder, is insane. Not even up for debate in my mind. But what drove them to that madness? With rare exception people are not born insane. What are the cues? How to intervene before that individual is too far gone? And when we find the answer to those questions we have to address how we're going to go about dealing with those problems without trampling on the rights of the lawful. We'll find none of those answers in the banning of a tool.

 

[bestone4ever]

The current problem is that retarded and mentally ill kids are getting their hands on their retarded or mentally ill parent's guns.

Unless we embrace designer babies with none of the bad shit, we will always have mentally ill and retarded kids.

We can, however, remove guns from that equation.

 

[BotanyBoy]

We can, however, remove guns from that equation.

We can't even get a half decent HC, immigration or education reform through or even a basic ass budget half the time......


Best of luck getting a convention together to shit can 2A.

 

[bellisarius]

The current problem is that retarded and mentally ill kids are getting their hands on their retarded or mentally ill parent's guns.

Unless we embrace designer babies with none of the bad shit, we will always have mentally ill and retarded kids.

We can, however, remove guns from that equation.

Care to explain you you plan on doing that without inciting a carnage the likes of which you've never seen before?

 

[bestone4ever]

Care to explain you you plan on doing that without inciting a carnage the likes of which you've never seen before?

I know we can't. The NRA and the frighten cunts in this nation would shit themselves so it would never happen. I know you're trying to pick a fight but I learned long ago that this is just something we have to deal with to live "free" while some of you retarded fuckers mow down dozens of people at concerts or kids at school.

 

[coachdb18]

Australia went the whole enchilada, confiscating ALL guns, and it STILL hasn’t worked... seems they just had a mass shooting too, just over a week ago. We need PARENTS to stop accepting the public school edict that it can raise kids better than their parents, and get parents to stop using public school as a babysitter for their little darlings who can do no wrong

 

[bestone4ever]

Australia went the whole enchilada, confiscating ALL guns, and it STILL hasn’t worked... seems they just had a mass shooting too, just over a week ago. We need PARENTS to stop accepting the public school edict that it can raise kids better than their parents, and get parents to stop using public school as a babysitter for their little darlings who can do no wrong

Don't try to compare Australia's ONE random shooting IN THREE YEARS to the current American epidemic. When you try to minimize the real problem all you do is make your argument weaker and yourself look like an asshole.

 

[bellisarius]

I know we can't. The NRA and the frighten cunts in this nation would shit themselves so it would never happen. I know you're trying to pick a fight but I learned long ago that this is just something we have to deal with to live "free" while some of you retarded fuckers mow down dozens of people at concerts or kids at school.

I don't think you have a grasp of the issue. First of all the NRA is a grass roots organization. You can black list the NRA if you want, but in doing so you are slamming millions of members and sympathizers. It's those millions that the politicians fear, as well they should, not the NRA as a 401c. There's a ton of 401c's out there that the politicians suck up to for the money, but they don't fear them because they don't have millions of voters behind them.

No, I'm not 'picking a fight.' The fight is upon us and it started LONG before Lit. ever existed. I want a solution as much as anyone else, I'm just not so naive as to believe it's as simplistic as banning guns.

 

[bestone4ever]

I don't think you have a grasp of the issue. First of all the NRA is a grass roots organization. You can black list the NRA if you want, but in doing so you are slamming millions of members and sympathizers. It's those millions that the politicians fear, as well they should, not the NRA as a 401c. There's a ton of 401c's out there that the politicians suck up to for the money, but they don't fear them because they don't have millions of voters behind them.

No, I'm not 'picking a fight.' The fight is upon us and it started LONG before Lit. ever existed. I want a solution as much as anyone else, I'm just not so naive as to believe it's as simplistic as banning guns.

I have a pretty good grasp on the issue. I honestly know that the change will have to come from those millions who actually have a conscience and when they realize that the NRA doesn't do jackshit for them, then maybe the change will come.

What do you pay dues to the NRA for? What's the point? For a sticker on your pickup and 10% off at Best Western? If the sheeple wouldn't just hand those fuckers millions of dollars so they can hand it right over to the politicians, what good are they? I know, you're gonna say "training" and "yadda blah blah" but be honest with yourself.

 

[coachdb18]

Don't try to compare Australia's ONE random shooting IN THREE YEARS to the current American epidemic. When you try to minimize the real problem all you do is make your argument weaker and yourself look like an asshole.

Liberals have barked ad nauseum about the comparison to the US, now they have a mass shooting and you dare say don’t compare? What a bunch of data whiners!

 

[bestone4ever]

Liberals have barked ad nauseum about the comparison to the US, now they have a mass shooting and you dare say don’t compare? What a bunch of data whiners!

And they should. Are you like Richard and unable to count to double digits? I would bet your stipend that 99% of Americans would take ONE death in several years to 10 in a single day.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

I don't think you have a grasp of the issue. First of all the NRA is a grass roots organization. You can black list the NRA if you want, but in doing so you are slamming millions of members and sympathizers. It's those millions that the politicians fear, as well they should, not the NRA as a 401c. There's a ton of 401c's out there that the politicians suck up to for the money, but they don't fear them because they don't have millions of voters behind them.

No, I'm not 'picking a fight.' The fight is upon us and it started LONG before Lit. ever existed. I want a solution as much as anyone else, I'm just not so naive as to believe it's as simplistic as banning guns.

What do you suggest to keep a 17 year old from bringing dad's gun in to school and firing off shots?

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

Australia went the whole enchilada, confiscating ALL guns, and it STILL hasn’t worked... seems they just had a mass shooting too, just over a week ago. We need PARENTS to stop accepting the public school edict that it can raise kids better than their parents, and get parents to stop using public school as a babysitter for their little darlings who can do no wrong

Have a link to this incident?

 

[bellisarius]

I have a pretty good grasp on the issue. I honestly know that the change will have to come from those millions who actually have a conscience and when they realize that the NRA doesn't do jackshit for them, then maybe the change will come.

What do you pay dues to the NRA for? What's the point? For a sticker on your pickup and 10% off at Best Western? If the sheeple wouldn't just hand those fuckers millions of dollars so they can hand it right over to the politicians, what good are they? I know, you're gonna say "training" and "yadda blah blah" but be honest with yourself.

Conscience? What conscience? Conscience as defined by whom?

I pay dues to the NRA (actually I don't, I was a life member long ago) so that shallow minded mobs can't extract the 'teeth' from the Constitution. That group, which always exists, that would trade essential liberties for security. There is no security in life. You weren't born with a USDA Approved stamp on your ass, a guarantee, or a booklet of instructions. Life is a risk.

So people, not unlike you, demean the organization and it's members and never quite understand that every time you do so membership and donations to the ILA (the real political arm of the NRA) increases and the NRA and its members emerge stronger than ever. It would seem to me that at some time there would be a realization that that path isn't working. In reality the only thing that's been accomplished with that political path is that people that have never owned guns before are buying guns. Accessories that available with overnight shipping are now back ordered for up to 8 weeks.

There is little that I can think of that will spur people to action faster than to tell them that you are going to take a right away.

 

[bestone4ever]

Have a link to this incident?

It just happened, quit pretending to not know.

Conscience? What conscience? Conscience as defined by whom?

I pay dues to the NRA (actually I don't, I was a life member long ago) so that shallow minded mobs can't extract the 'teeth' from the Constitution. That group, which always exists, that would trade essential liberties for security. There is no security in life. You weren't born with a USDA Approved stamp on your ass, a guarantee, or a booklet of instructions. Life is a risk.

So people, not unlike you, demean the organization and it's members and never quite understand that every time you do so membership and donations to the ILA (the real political arm of the NRA) increases and the NRA and its members emerge stronger than ever. It would seem to me that at some time there would be a realization that that path isn't working. In reality the only thing that's been accomplished with that political path is that people that have never owned guns before are buying guns. Accessories that available with overnight shipping are now back ordered for up to 8 weeks.

There is little that I can think of that will spur people to action faster than to tell them that you are going to take a right away.

I appreciate you agreeing with me that the NRA does virtually nothing for its dues-paying members, thank you.

It's not true that more people are buying guns, the same gun owners are buying more guns. That's a big difference.

I'd like to hear your solution and not one that says it's exclusively a mental health problem. That's obviously part of it.

 

[bellisarius]

It just happened, quit pretending to not know.



I appreciate you agreeing with me that the NRA does virtually nothing for its dues-paying members, thank you.

It's not true that more people are buying guns, the same gun owners are buying more guns. That's a big difference.

I'd like to hear your solution and not one that says it's exclusively a mental health problem. That's obviously part of it.

I don't agree with you. They use those dues to fulfill their core mission and they do that well.

Oh, it is true. Bag your MSM mantra. The notion that 1.7% of the population owns 50% of the guns is insane on the surface. The portrait that there are a bunch of Scrooge McGuns out there that have a vault full of guns that they swim in daily. No one, NO ONE, has a clue as to how many guns are actually out there.

 

[Taint_mAnn]

The Second Amendment is quite clear as to what it says and what it means (although there are a few who apparently are saddled with English as a second language that are determined to debate that point. The Supreme Court has ruled that the Second Amendment is an individual right (Heller v District of Columbia) not some group right. Further the court has ruled that right covers military style individual firearms (United States v Miller). The order that the Second Amendment appears in the Bill of Rights is not arbitrary. Nor is it a right given by the government. It, along with all of the amendments in the Bill of Rights are assumed to be the natural rights of man. Beyond the reach of government to grant or deny. The Second Amendment is the guarantor of all of the other rights. Taking the First Amendment as an example, look around the world. In nation after nation you find their governments placing restrictions on their freedom of speech, the religion(s) they choose to practice, and to peaceably assemble. The Second Amendment is the 'teeth' in the Constitution that acts as a brake on the governments ability to infringe on all of those other rights we take for granted.

There are those that would want to do away with the Second Amendment altogether, or severely restrict the right to exercise that right. They couch it in terms of 'Hunting', a factor that was considered by only one state when the Bill of Rights was framed (Pennsylvania), or in other equally restrictive arguments. Over the course of this nations history over one million Americans have given their lives to secure and preserve the rights in the Constitution that make the United States what it is with the liberties that we all enjoy. Those rights are NOT going to be surrendered willingly or without bloodshed no matter what fantasies you may cleave to. The "Gun Control" crowd have willfully ignored the fact that in each and everyone of these recent school shootings multiple laws were broken BEFORE the first life was taken, yet some how they are of the belief that even more laws will 'fix' the problem. The only thing that onerous laws will accomplish is the criminalizing of what are now law abiding citizens, the creation of new black markets, and the fomenting of civil insurrection. In other words they'll have worsened the problem.

The willful taking of a life is murder. The age of the victim is immaterial. A life is a life no matter how it ends and although senseless murders are seemingly the worst of all, it is only the living that are burdened with the problem of trying to make sense of that which makes no sense at all. The firearm used in these senseless murders is merely a tool, an implement. And these murderers are merely the wielder of those tools. Those that are determined to embark on indiscriminate carnage will find a way, and a tool, to do so. These acts of indiscriminate murder are symptoms of a societal problem, a problem that the mere removal of a tool is NOT going to solve..........or even address. As far as I'm concerned anyone that commits murder, and especially indiscriminate murder, is insane. Not even up for debate in my mind. But what drove them to that madness? With rare exception people are not born insane. What are the cues? How to intervene before that individual is too far gone? And when we find the answer to those questions we have to address how we're going to go about dealing with those problems without trampling on the rights of the lawful. We'll find none of those answers in the banning of a tool.

That's pretty wordy for a troll thread.

 

[richard_daily]

Have a link to this incident?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/12/world/australia/mass-shooting-osmington.html

 

[phrodeau]

Oh great, another thread where nobody comes up with compelling arguments or any plan worth a fig.

I especially like the idea of a nation of responsible law-abiding gun owners who are one bit of legislation away from gunning down their fellow citizens until they run out of ammo.

 

[coachdb18]

Oh great, another thread where nobody comes up with compelling arguments or any plan worth a fig.

I especially like the idea of a nation of responsible law-abiding gun owners who are one bit of legislation away from gunning down their fellow citizens until they run out of ammo.

Arm the teachers... it’s a simple enough concept, you simply SHOOT BACK!

OBTW, in response to your second paragraph, that’s what a reloading bench is for (it was a stupid comment so might as well have some fun with it)

 

[patient1]

Sadly, guns make things worse, but there are worse things than guns.-

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence
Thresholds of Violence
How School Shootings Catch On by Malcom Gladwell



From 2015
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/yes-mass-killings-inspire-copycats-study-finds-n386141

"Police have said so for years and now scientists have measured the effect: Mass shootings and school attacks do inspire copycats.
As many as 20 to 30 percent of attacks are set off by other attacks, according to researchers at Arizona State University and Northeastern Illinois University. The effect lasts about 13 days, they write in the report published Thursday in the Public Library of Science journal "

 

[richard_daily]

Oh great, another thread where nobody comes up with compelling arguments or any plan worth a fig.

Dear anti-abortionist, the solution is mental health care, on demand, without apology.

 

[bellisarius]

Sadly, guns make things worse, but there are worse things than guns.-

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence
Thresholds of Violence
How School Shootings Catch On by Malcom Gladwell



From 2015
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/yes-mass-killings-inspire-copycats-study-finds-n386141

"Police have said so for years and now scientists have measured the effect: Mass shootings and school attacks do inspire copycats.
As many as 20 to 30 percent of attacks are set off by other attacks, according to researchers at Arizona State University and Northeastern Illinois University. The effect lasts about 13 days, they write in the report published Thursday in the Public Library of Science journal "

Andy Warhol said it much earlier re. the 15 min. of fame, or infame as it were. It's almost as if it's become a social media event. A 'sound bite', a really sick sound bite, but a sound bit none the less.

And not unexpectedly the public is responding as if it's a sound bite. Just part of the 24/7 news cycle. Here today, gone tomorrow.

But as I mentioned in the OP, no one wants to address the real problem. And that problem is US. Society in general. Permissive in may respects but oppressive in others. Zero tolerance of thought or expression outside accepted norms, especially within our school systems. No outlet that won't result in 'punishment' in excess of the 'crime.'