Storytelling, BDSM, and catharsis - a scientific basis for same?

[CutieMouse]

It's interesting what you say about doing something in BDSM that you didn't enjoy doing in therapy. Can you put your finger on the difference? Why was that "fork in the road" so much more appealing?

Neon

P.S., Librarians rock! I love the title of the book that you're reading

I think a lot of it has to do with connectivity. I am *sloooooooooooow* to trust people or make friends. I mean slow slow. I trust M (whom I've known for almost 10 years, lived within a few blocks of for 5 years, raised kids alongside, was briefly Lovers with, and am currently living [platonically] with); I trust J (whom I've "known" for a little over 2½ years, and spoken to several times a day with for all that time- there are only a handful of days where I think we weren't able to chat for one reason or another- speaking for hours on the phone, 7 days a week, sped up the connection process for me LOL). I Love them; I trust them; they know me; they know a lot (if not most) of my history. Both of them (in different ways- some connected to BDSM, msot not) help me rewrite my story into a more positive me. I know I can be vulnerable around either of them, I'll still be very much loved and safe, and there is nothing i can ever do that will make them go away or hate me.

In comparison, I saw my therapist at most twice a month, for 50 minutes at a time. I had to squish 30 years of poor decisions, struggles, drama, abuse, etc into small enough spaces and chunks for her to help me rewind things and write a new happiness. She did an excellent job; however, it was impossible for me to have the connection to her that I do M or J, simply because I didn't have the luxury of time to settle into her as a person. I trusted her professionally; I couldn't trust her enough (as a person) to be vulnerable around her. Ahh vulnerability... what a fun "issue" to have.

PS- The book is very cool. I spent some time this afternoon reading about amoastic order in Greece, with a library that hasn't changed since 1168A.D.

 

[neonflux]

I think a lot of it has to do with connectivity. I am *sloooooooooooow* to trust people or make friends. I mean slow slow. I trust M (whom I've known for almost 10 years, lived within a few blocks of for 5 years, raised kids alongside, was briefly Lovers with, and am currently living [platonically] with); I trust J (whom I've "known" for a little over 2½ years, and spoken to several times a day with for all that time- there are only a handful of days where I think we weren't able to chat for one reason or another- speaking for hours on the phone, 7 days a week, sped up the connection process for me LOL). I Love them; I trust them; they know me; they know a lot (if not most) of my history. Both of them (in different ways- some connected to BDSM, msot not) help me rewrite my story into a more positive me. I know I can be vulnerable around either of them, I'll still be very much loved and safe, and there is nothing i can ever do that will make them go away or hate me.

In comparison, I saw my therapist at most twice a month, for 50 minutes at a time. I had to squish 30 years of poor decisions, struggles, drama, abuse, etc into small enough spaces and chunks for her to help me rewind things and write a new happiness. She did an excellent job; however, it was impossible for me to have the connection to her that I do M or J, simply because I didn't have the luxury of time to settle into her as a person. I trusted her professionally; I couldn't trust her enough (as a person) to be vulnerable around her. Ahh vulnerability... what a fun "issue" to have.

PS- The book is very cool. I spent some time this afternoon reading about amoastic order in Greece, with a library that hasn't changed since 1168A.D.

This makes tremendous sense to me - the trust, the longevity. I asked initially because I think that my BDSM play has had a much more profound effect, and much more quickly, than several on-and-off years of therapy. Within the concept of "play" there also seems to be, for me at least, more concentration on taking processes outward instead of the inward as with therapy (at least in its initial stages)? Although that's not quite it because BDSM also involves self-reflection and self-discovery, but...

BTW - you are dangerous - I already have about 12 books waiting to be read and at least 15 more on my Amazon wish list!

Neon

 

[FurryFury]

I can see it now - it will begin with the occassional paper presented by kink-positive practitioners and researchers at psychology and psychiatry conferences (for instance, "Use of Physical Pain and Role-Play with Severely Depressed Patients in the Development of a New Gestalt") then continue with the occassional offering of graduate courses entitled something along the lines of Beyond Shock Treatments: Radical Storytelling Techniques for the Psychiatrist, to the establishment of Radical Erotic Role Play Centers for Self-Actualization all over the country, LOL (Hey, think we could getta' grant?) On a more serious note, yea, WOW!

Exactly!

I'd love to be part of something like that. I have so many big ideas but no time or money to make them happen.

I will say that role play, cyber and BDSM have made my world SO much better and exorcised the evil in my past. I'm so grateful to be wide open and so much more whole in my life. I like me so much better.

Fury

 

[LadyAria]

Lady Aria, thank you so much for your contribution. Your story is all the more remarkable because of how old you were when it happened. I was developed large breasts when very young, so understand the taunts, rumors, etc. (My response, unfortunately, was to try to hide my breasts and to ignore my tormentors.) It's a wonderful image - seeing that awful boy cowed and cowardly when you so unexpectedly turned the tables on him! I think that you have just become my new...

Neon

LOL, yes, it didn't make it easy to get a dates.

 

[FurryFury]

LOL, yes, it didn't make it easy to get a dates.

It's hard to imagine you having any trouble getting dates!

Fury

 

[LadyAria]

It's hard to imagine you having any trouble getting dates!

Fury

Thank you, Fury.

Silly boys, the prerequisite of enjoying a good lashing shrank the dating pool considerably. They just did not know what they were missing

 

[FurryFury]

Thank you, Fury.

Silly boys, the prerequisite of enjoying a good lashing shrank the dating pool considerably. They just did not know what they were missing

*smiles quietly*

Fury

 

[neonflux]

From another thread...

As per JM's request...

By the way, Neon - if you are interested, I would be fascinated to read a post (perhaps on a different thread) on the subject of your "cleansing".

What does that mean, in the context of your experience? Was it part of a longer educational process, and if so what was the progression of stages before and after? How would you describe the organization that teaches this process? And what justification/rationale do they give for playing without a safeword? How long did you know the Dom you played with before allowing him to cleanse you, and what experiences or process in generating trust made you so confident in his care?

No rush, obviously. Whenever you have time, I am curious to hear what you have to say.

I am not sure the cleansing fits here, but it did help me to "reframe" a significant portion of my story. It was also cathartic. It was not part of a longer educational process or orientation. Nor was it play in the "normal" sense of the word. It was, simply, designed as a purgative process similar to what can happen in what Dossie Easton and Janet W. Hardy describe as "shadow play" in "The New Topping Book."

I requested that my friend do a cleansing for me after a series of very intense events: 1) I ended my relationship with the first person with whom I'd really connected after my break-up with my ex because I realized I was repeating a very unhealthy pattern; 2) my ex stopped talking to me altogether when she realized that I was dating again - especially difficult because we were still seeing each other daily and lived in the same building and had a "community" in common; 3) I started to fall in love with ~D; 4) I got herpes from a woman (I was beginning to falll in love with) who I am certain knew she had it when she gave it to me and didn't tell me; 5) I gave herpes to ~D before I ever had my first symptom; 6) I found myself in a major financial difficulties; 7) ~D broke up with me 2 days before my 50th birthday (we were to spend it in Disneyland) to go back to his ex (in retrospect, this turned out to be a very, very good thing). All occured over a 6-month period. It was the last that broke my soul - ~D and I had never, until the break-up, used a harsh word with each other, had always treated each other with great respect and consideration - what made it so difficult was that I knew he still loved me - and that fact was what crushed - that as much as he loved me, he chose someone else.

My father, who was my world, had permanent brain damage when I was 13. From there arose great abandonment issues as described in this section of a much longer poem... Of course with everything I'd been through, the abandonment fears reared their ugly heads full force. I had long ago decided that my fear of abandonment and the resulting difficulties I had with intimacy would always be with me - I had reconciled myself to not being able to change.

I have always been strong. But so many difficulties occuring one right after the other just became too much. After ~D broke up with me, I couldn't function. I decided that nearing 50, I had to finally deal with my abandonment issues. The herpes was also a major thing - it had completely changed my relationship to my body and sexuality and I knew I needed to deal with that as well. I tried to get counseling, but I was neither suicidal or addicted to a substance, so Kaiser would not allow me to see anyone more often than 1x per month, not often enough to achieve anything. (They did put me on meds temporarily.)

My friend also has herpes - was one of the first people I turned to at that time because I knew he'd understand. He had been left by his fiance within the same week that ~D left me. We helped each other through much of the first month. He had discussed with me wanting to get a cleansing and also revealed that he had training/experience in doing the same when I asked him more about it. He belongs to an old BDSM family here - he learned the process from his family mentor/BDSM "Mom." I know that some people would define it as "dangerous lay practice" but the process of structuring the experience ensures that you only go where you are able. I trusted both his skill as a Dom and his spirit/character - he is ethical and decent and loving. I also knew that he loved me as a friend, so...

We began structuring the cleansing with my writing out all of the issues on which I wanted to work - all had a great deal of anger and hurt attached, most were also connected to my feelings of abandonment by my Dad. The herpes was a different loss of self. I gave him some of the writing I've been doing on that. We then sat down and talked through it more and also established goals for the process, as well as questions I wanted to ask myself (he added some of his own, particularly in the herpes area). He arranged to have a friend there who is an alternative healer (I know, I know - this is all sounding just soooooooooo airy fairy northern california new age-y, lol.)

The process itelf is probably close to a very extreme form of rolphing - as with many people, flogging is soothing to me - it releases stress. Spanking, I hate - it has never been a particularly enjoyable sensation for me (something that, for obvious reasons, I don't always share with the Tops who are my play partners, LOL). The cleansing combined retelling my story with flogging - cathartic & a way to loosen the body enabling me to better reframe an event. It also incorporated spanking - the fear of which drove me to dig deeper into answering the questions asked during the process. The reason for not using safe words was that I might have stopped short of going somewhere emotionally difficult that I'd set out to go. (I probably would have used my safe word had I been able to use one - am glad I didn't have the option.) I would probably only do this with one other person besides my friend. This was before I began my formal exploration, but I've known folks in the community for years, and knew of my friend's reputation as a Dom (he's fairly well known here). Also, I knew that he'd take special care to keep me safe throughout (he did).

The process, which lasted about 2 hours, ended with a recounting, and a visualization/guided process, where I took all of the stresses and memories, and cleansed them, washed them away, replaced them with new meanings, not new stories but a new way of framing them. ADDITION: My friend also insisted that I come up with concrete actions to take my new understandings "out into the world" with me. Of course, the aftercare following was very intense. I know it may sound somewhat implausable, but I started living differently after that. Perhaps it was due to an extended endorphin high, but I was able to start functioning again almost immediately. It took me several months to completely integrate the new meanings I'd discovered - the bruising, etc. that I had for the first month after was a nice way to remind me of these changes as I incorporated them. What was so amazing is how the "new way of being" began to take hold immediately.

I do believe that the body stores memories, that it knows. I am certain that by combining the body work with the storytelling and RE-visualization, I was able to set the stage for working through things that would have taken significantly longer either through meditation (which I do daily) or through therapy. I believe that the pain was instrumental in helping me to move beyond the various mechanisms I'd set up to deal with the trauma of my father so many years ago - mechanisms which had become self-defeating in my personal life. I don't believe that I would be capable of sharing the level of intense intimacy I now share with ~D had I not had the cleansing (one reason I say that the break-up was so good a thing - it also helped him to work through some patterns himself and open himself up to me in a way that he hadn't before.)

So that's it in a coconut (much larger than a regular) shell.

Feel free to ask questions and even to express doubts.

Neon

 

[intothewoods]

Wow, neon! So much there that I am curious about, but I'll have to give it some more thought.

I am wondering how you knew what a cleansing was. Where did that concept come from? The Topping book? Your friend?

 

[neonflux]

Wow, neon! So much there that I am curious about, but I'll have to give it some more thought.

I am wondering how you knew what a cleansing was. Where did that concept come from? The Topping book? Your friend?

I don't know where the concept came from. The family my friend belongs to is decades old - full of protocol, traced back to the Old Guard days...

I knew about it because my friend had mentioned having one to me and at the time, it sounded like a good idea, LOL. (It actually was!)

Neon

P.S., I am actually an athiest, but I do believe in Divine Principle (attend a UU Church) and the power of symbolism. I placed a statue of Kali on my meditation alter at the beginning of the year that all of this happened. She represents many things, in particular the death of the ego, but also transformation through stages of death and destruction leading to rebirth and renewal. As they say, be careful what you wish for, LOL.

 

[ecstaticsub]

Neon--Thank you so much for sharing your experience. It is interesting timing for me to read this now. I was in my yoga class yesterday and during the final relaxation phase I was thinking how much a good flogging would feel to really clear out my stresses. There is so much going on in my head a cleansing sounds like just what I need.

BTW, I find it disturbing that Kaiser wouldn't approve therapy yet you did get medication. I am a pharmacist and am not against the use of drugs, but therapy is often more helpful.

Thank you so much once again!!!

 

[neonflux]

Neon--Thank you so much for sharing your experience. It is interesting timing for me to read this now. I was in my yoga class yesterday and during the final relaxation phase I was thinking how much a good flogging would feel to really clear out my stresses. There is so much going on in my head a cleansing sounds like just what I need.

BTW, I find it disturbing that Kaiser wouldn't approve therapy yet you did get medication. I am a pharmacist and am not against the use of drugs, but therapy is often more helpful.

Thank you so much once again!!!

*hugs* I would agree with you on Kaiser - at least the drugs also helped me to stabilize. I think, unfortunately, that this is the trend with most HMOs in the U.S. - to prefer drugs over therapy because it's cheaper. What is weird is that they would have given me 20 sessions, which I suspect would have been adequate. They just couldn't give them to me in a way that would have been helpful due to a lack of therapists. My OB/GYN was also not happy with their choice, either - she is on a committee looking at their current mental health services - we'll see what they eventually devise... Neon

 

[intothewoods]

I don't know where the concept came from. The family my friend belongs to is decades old - full of protocol, traced back to the Old Guard days...

I knew about it because my friend had mentioned having one to me and at the time, it sounded like a good idea, LOL. (It actually was!)

Neon

P.S., I am actually an athiest, but I do believe in Divine Principle (attend a UU Church) and the power of symbolism. I placed a statue of Kali on my meditation alter at the beginning of the year that all of this happened. She represents many things, in particular the death of the ego, but also transformation through stages of death and destruction leading to rebirth and renewal. As they say, be careful what you wish for, LOL.

Hmm...decades old family? Makes me think there's a book for Amistead Maupin in there somewhere...

 

[JMohegan]

So that's it in a coconut (much larger than a regular) shell.

Feel free to ask questions and even to express doubts.

Neon, thank you for sharing so much of yourself and taking the time to describe your experience in such depth.

I have absolutely no doubts as to the legitimacy and value of the experience for you. The "cleansing" sounds like a wonderfully creative and beneficial way to put SM activities to good use.

On the subject of safewords, the experience you describe really highlights one fundamental difference in meaning & purpose for that tool.

With me, "Red" does not mean: "I don't want to go any farther."

Instead, it means: "I truly, sincerely believe that I can't take any more."

The reason for not using safe words was that I might have stopped short of going somewhere emotionally difficult that I'd set out to go.

I personally can not imagine being comfortable as the Top in a situation like this.

Perhaps this is because my experience is with physical rather than emotional sadism. I don't know. But the idea of trumping a bottom's own judgment on what is too much to handle emotionally makes me very uncomfortable.

I understand and would definitely feel qualified to administer some sort of cathartic experience through flogging, spanking, etc. But anything that is more along the lines of breaking down & shattering in order to build back up again is beyond my personal skill.

 

[neonflux]

Psychological vs. physical safety...

Neon, thank you for sharing so much of yourself and taking the time to describe your experience in such depth.

I have absolutely no doubts as to the legitimacy and value of the experience for you. The "cleansing" sounds like a wonderfully creative and beneficial way to put SM activities to good use.

On the subject of safewords, the experience you describe really highlights one fundamental difference in meaning & purpose for that tool.

With me, "Red" does not mean: "I don't want to go any farther."

Instead, it means: "I truly, sincerely believe that I can't take any more."

I personally can not imagine being comfortable as the Top in a situation like this.

Perhaps this is because my experience is with physical rather than emotional sadism. I don't know. But the idea of trumping a bottom's own judgment on what is too much to handle emotionally makes me very uncomfortable.

I understand and would definitely feel qualified to administer some sort of cathartic experience through flogging, spanking, etc. But anything that is more along the lines of breaking down & shattering in order to build back up again is beyond my personal skill.

Hi JM, thank you for reading through. Re: the "safe word" thing - it only applied to the physical side of things, and my friend clearly knew from my body language just how much I could take. There was no psychological breaking down (as there might be, for instance, in shadow play). All was designed to build up - the emotional difficulties I spoke of came from my own admission of particular aspects of the defenses I'd built up, particular hurts I found it difficult to look at, and accessing the deep anger I felt, but had never been able to completely acknowledge. It was the physical pain that brought me to that acknowledgment. I never would have given psychological power over to someone so completely - I knew that wouldn't occur because of how carefully we crafted the experience beforehand. (On the flip side, like you, I also would be uncomfortable claiming that type of power if performing a cleansing for someone.) Neon

 

[Shankara20]

ps - I am still lurking so keep up the great posts everyone

 

[FurryFury]

Neonflux,



The first time you brought up your cleansing I was intrigued.

The more I read about it the more impressed I am.

Thanks for sharing your experience so generously!

Fury

 

[neonflux]

Addendum...

Neon, thank you for sharing so much of yourself and taking the time to describe your experience in such depth...

...On the subject of safewords, the experience you describe really highlights one fundamental difference in meaning & purpose for that tool.

With me, "Red" does not mean: "I don't want to go any farther."

Instead, it means: "I truly, sincerely believe that I can't take any more."

In thinking about it more, I also think that knowing I didn't have a safeword was in itself a spur to get where I needed to go. The pressure was very much an internal one, if that makes sense? Neon

 

[JMohegan]

Hi JM, thank you for reading through. Re: the "safe word" thing - it only applied to the physical side of things, and my friend clearly knew from my body language just how much I could take. There was no psychological breaking down (as there might be, for instance, in shadow play). All was designed to build up - the emotional difficulties I spoke of came from my own admission of particular aspects of the defenses I'd built up, particular hurts I found it difficult to look at, and accessing the deep anger I felt, but had never been able to completely acknowledge. It was the physical pain that brought me to that acknowledgment. I never would have given psychological power over to someone so completely - I knew that wouldn't occur because of how carefully we crafted the experience beforehand. (On the flip side, like you, I also would be uncomfortable claiming that type of power if performing a cleansing for someone.)

Neon, thanks for this additional explanation, which helps me understand a bit more.

When you say that the absence of a safeword "only applied to the physical side of things", does that mean you retained the right to communicate emotional distress beyond the point you felt you could handle? If so, did you discuss a specific word or phrase to signal your mental breaking point?

I understand that the experience was carefully crafted ahead of time. But my experience is that even the most rationally planned and respectfully engaged conversations can go awry when unforeseen and unintended triggers ignite emotions and reactions that derail the process.

Since he knew you well, he obviously could have employed the same safeguards that close friends or lovers do in tense situations - reading body language, tone, etc., to gauge that things had gone too far from an emotional perspective. Is that the type of thing relied on here?

In thinking about it more, I also think that knowing I didn't have a safeword was in itself a spur to get where I needed to go. The pressure was very much an internal one, if that makes sense?

Yes, it does make sense.

 

[neonflux]

Since he knew you well, he obviously could have employed the same safeguards that close friends or lovers do in tense situations - reading body language, tone, etc., to gauge that things had gone too far from an emotional perspective. Is that the type of thing relied on here?

Yes, that was very much it. What amazed me is how skilled he was at knowing, since we had never played together... Perhaps it was foolish at some level, but I never, ever felt endangered and I have a strong ego - it takes a strong conscious act of will for me to "give that up." I would not trade the experience for the world and will be eternally grateful for what it gave me. As I said, there is only one other person I know with whom I'd trust so much of myself. Neon

 

[JMohegan]

Yes, that was very much it. What amazed me is how skilled he was at knowing, since we had never played together... Perhaps it was foolish at some level, but I never, ever felt endangered and I have a strong ego - it takes a strong conscious act of will for me to "give that up." I would not trade the experience for the world and will be eternally grateful for what it gave me. As I said, there is only one other person I know with whom I'd trust so much of myself. Neon

No, given the time you spent planning things out and your selection of this individual as the Top, I don't think it sounds foolish.

In asking questions here, I am not questioning the legitimacy of the process itself. I'm just asking about how it was done. I've never tried anything like this before, and do not feel qualified to do so. But as a Top, I find the experience you describe here fascinating nonetheless. Thanks again for sharing it.

 

[intothewoods]

bump ... thank you, miss rebecca...

We began structuring the cleansing with my writing out all of the issues on which I wanted to work - all had a great deal of anger and hurt attached, most were also connected to my feelings of abandonment by my Dad. The herpes was a different loss of self. I gave him some of the writing I've been doing on that. We then sat down and talked through it more and also established goals for the process, as well as questions I wanted to ask myself (he added some of his own, particularly in the herpes area). He arranged to have a friend there who is an alternative healer (I know, I know - this is all sounding just soooooooooo airy fairy northern california new age-y, lol.)

The process itelf is probably close to a very extreme form of rolphing - as with many people, flogging is soothing to me - it releases stress. Spanking, I hate - it has never been a particularly enjoyable sensation for me (something that, for obvious reasons, I don't always share with the Tops who are my play partners, LOL). The cleansing combined retelling my story with flogging - cathartic & a way to loosen the body enabling me to better reframe an event. It also incorporated spanking - the fear of which drove me to dig deeper into answering the questions asked during the process. The reason for not using safe words was that I might have stopped short of going somewhere emotionally difficult that I'd set out to go. (I probably would have used my safe word had I been able to use one - am glad I didn't have the option.) I would probably only do this with one other person besides my friend. This was before I began my formal exploration, but I've known folks in the community for years, and knew of my friend's reputation as a Dom (he's fairly well known here). Also, I knew that he'd take special care to keep me safe throughout (he did).

The process, which lasted about 2 hours, ended with a recounting, and a visualization/guided process, where I took all of the stresses and memories, and cleansed them, washed them away, replaced them with new meanings, not new stories but a new way of framing them. ADDITION: My friend also insisted that I come up with concrete actions to take my new understandings "out into the world" with me. Of course, the aftercare following was very intense. I know it may sound somewhat implausable, but I started living differently after that. Perhaps it was due to an extended endorphin high, but I was able to start functioning again almost immediately. It took me several months to completely integrate the new meanings I'd discovered - the bruising, etc. that I had for the first month after was a nice way to remind me of these changes as I incorporated them. What was so amazing is how the "new way of being" began to take hold immediately.

I've had something flare up recently, something I can't let go. I'm so glad rebecca bumped this thread and I read this passage, because I think it might be exactly what I need.