Question about Digital Drawing

[SimonDoom]

I am trying to get the hang of drawing figures using digital art media. Right now I'm using Photoshop Elements. My question is: how do you get enough control over drawing the line using a mouse to do it effectively? I find it extremely difficult using a mouse to draw a line that doesn't constantly wobble. Even when I'm tracing over an existing work it's surprisingly difficult, and painstaking to go back and adjust the line. Is there some trick to this that I'm missing? If I'm drawing freehand I don't have this problem, but trying to draw with a program using a mouse is surprisingly difficult.

One of the problems of Photoshop Elements, as opposed to Photoshop, which I don't have, is that it has no pen curvature tool, so drawing smooth curved lines is a pain.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Are there other programs or ways to do this that are easier/better?

Anything free?

 

[LWulf]

more than you asked, but what you asked wasn't as 'simple' as you think

I don't know about photoshop at all, but I know Gimp (which is free). Supposedly gimp and photoshop are very similar in tools.

On Gimp, there is a tool icon that looks like a lasso, and is called "free select." with a mouse, zoom in as much as you like, then left mouse click and move the mouse to the next point of an arc, and continue as you go.

Most ways of drawing with a mouse use a straight line. To make an arc, you use a straight line and move in steps with a straight line. Even with MS Paint, while there is a pencil or paint brush tool to actively draw in a scribblely line, there is also a "line" command. I think it is similar; left mouse click to establish a beginning point, then move the mouse and left mouse click again to establish the end of the "straight line."

Note: if you choose a "pencil" application, with a hard edge, and try to draw a straight line, then the outcomming line may be "pixelated." Using a paintbrush (or airbrush tool), and using the same method of two clicks, the line will look less pixelated (but will have a "soft edge."

Let's redefine some terms here. A 'hard edge' is where you click the mouse and get a dot with clear sense of where the edge is. A 'soft edge' is where you click the mouse and get a fuzzy edge. The tool and sometimes options for the "brush" determine how fuzzy the dot will be. A "paintbrush" will be more fuzzy than a "pencil." An "airbrush" will be more fuzzy than a "paintbrush." You normally will get a few options on size of "brush" (shown as an icon with a hard edge dot or fuzzy dot, and by clicking that icon can change the dot to a different size, ort edge definition), and a slider bar that allows you to change the pixel size of the dot from one pixel in size to nearly half the sheet of paper.

There is a way to draw a straight line with a hard edge where the line is "perfect" or without pixelation, but this only happens when you put in two mouse clicks that are either perfectly horizontal, or vertical. the program should have a "construction line" to indicate what the line will look like. If the line looks "fuzzy" then it isn't perfectly horizontal or vertical. when the line is the least fuzzy looking, then you are straight.

Okay, lets say instead of drawing a straight line, you want to draw a curve.
This gets more tricky. I already told you how to draw a curve freehand, but let's say you want something fairly regular looking; something fairly "perfect" looking. There are a couple of ways of doing this. You can either use a pattern (usually a circle) to trace from (this involves layers), or you can use a tool called a "path."

Tracing, in a sense, is actually harder because you have to use transparent layers, to first draw a dot with a pencil and hard edge on one layer, then switch to another layer and start using the straight line to pick your points on the circle to plot points of the arc, as far as you want/need. It's best to use polar opposites for color when using the tracing method. Having a black dot pattern to trace from, while drawing a white line is easier to distinguish where you have gone astray while freehand drawing.

You can always "ctrl" + Z to undo the action you made while drawing. Undo does NOT control deleting a layer, or other non-drawing action you have done.

This is getting longer than I intended and without pictures, harder to explain. If you want to know about paths and such, I'll try to upload a diagram to explain better. Right now I have a doctor's appoint to go to.

 

[LWulf]

The point is there are lots of different ways to do each task and get either your desired results, or to get different results. Most are rather involved. The easiest way to learn them, or learn them all is by experimenting with each, but always one at a time.

It might sound redundant or childish, but first try to draw a stick figure with each tool. Find out which you like to use, and why, but try to remember the other tools are there. Learning to master digital drawing involves learning why each tool is better than another for different circumstances. Sometimes freehand is better, sometimes straight line is, or tracing, or path, etc. It depends on what end result you want.

Good luck.

 

[LWulf]

...and technically, this should have been posted in "how to." heh

 

[THROBBS]

Using a mouse has limitations. It is not as intuitive as a stylus and, unfortunately does not take advantage of the pressure sensitive capabilities available in Photoshop.

I have not used Photoshop Elements, which I gather has minimal capabilities (relatively speaking).

Now Procreate for iPad is MUCH more intuitive, but... one needs the iPad, natch.

The long and short of it — a mouse (or track pad) are much more difficult to control.
A stylus on a pad — like a wacom (bamboo is one of those) is WAY better...and best is a stylus with a pressure sensitive screen, so you are not "distance removed" from your strokes. That would be with an iPad, an intuos system... or there are other available for Windows based systems.

(I use Apple products)

SO, without spending more, you will just have to practice to get the touch/technique of it, and even then you cannot enjoy all the brushes.


******

A crude analogy is— "Can I paint a beautiful painting using Red, yellow and Blue oil paints using a pencil?"

"yep, you can, but it will be much harder than using a set of sable brushes and full spectrum of colors."

 

[blurhead]

It would be extremely difficult to draw digitally from scratch using a mouse, and as has already been said above using a pad/stylus combination is the way to go - if you want to draw in digital from scratch.
I have been trying to make more digital work using a program on the mac called "Pixelmator" which is not as comprehensive as Photoshop but does all the functions I really need and is very cheap considering what it can do.
The digital work I am doing is heavily based on scanning in my pencil drawings and then working over them in Pixelmator, by this I mean coloring, adding to (i.e. backgrounds) or manipulating the scanned drawing, I find this much more rewarding/easier than trying to draw from scratch on a blank piece of "digital paper".

 

[vidiman]

Although it is not something that i do - there are ways that would make it more achievable...

So ditch the mouse - i am not sure how anyone could draw with a mouse (open to be proven incorrect)

A stylus (wacom or similar) - would be a big step up as it is more resembling a traditional pen / pencil / brush

Again i dont profess to know which software is best suited for this but... Adobe illustrator would give you more options i expect with lines and line styles and also evening out the occasional wobble or jerky line.

You could also scan (raster) an original in / trace it (convert to vectors)- you can then edit and manipulate each of these vectors (nodes) to your hearts content ... (for me that is usually under a minute!!!!)

I am sure there will be artists / cartoonist / illustrators who may well point out better / different software for certain things...

 

[LWulf]

I'm seeking to upload a tutorial with my own digital art that shows it is quite possible to do with a mouse (and with equal quality). Perhaps not as easy as with a stylus, but possible all the same.

It's just going to take a little time to produce artwork for the tutorial that I can find a host for. My original, clean work, I don't post here. My less-than-clean work is mostly my "inking" other people's work, which image-host sites frown on.

Sheesh, why are meece getting so slammed on...?!?

 

[THROBBS]

Here is a quicky visual using Photoshop.
Yes, I recall that you do not have the pen tool to create vector curves.

I have created drawings in Adobe Illustrator — both technical drawings and illustrative ones of people and animals using a mouse. The results are quite a bit different than in a pixel based application. That being said, the latest vector programs are much more powerful now and allow for "more" subtlety, but it is still "different".

so you can see that the track pad lines and the mouse lines are very similar and neither will have variation in thickness, opacity, scattering...etc which are available with a stylus.

using any mechanism (track pad, mouse or stylus) you can (if you have the path option) make very controlled curves, by "stroking" the path with the designated brush. BUT it does will not variegate on a single line (path) segment.

Hopefully you can borrow someone's iPad (or the like) and try Procreate...I bet you'd really like that, it is much more intuitive than photoshop. And if this is something that you want to pursue...get the appropriate tools.

 

[jsmiam]

On the “free and cheap” is a somewhat lame trick, but better than nothing at all: (it unfortunately assumes a laptop and a physical mouse too).

- Click the button of the physical mouse, draw with the trackpad
- And/or click the laptop button and draw with the mouse, which, since you’re not pressing down as hard to press the button, moves a little more smoothly.
- If you’re good at backwards thinking , hold the mouse in place and slide a piece of paper underneath the mouse, drawing by moving the paper

Like I said. Better than nothing. Pencil or more sophisticated hardware highly recommended.

 

[yukonnights]

I am trying to get the hang of drawing figures using digital art media. Right now I'm using Photoshop Elements. My question is: how do you get enough control over drawing the line using a mouse to do it effectively? I find it extremely difficult using a mouse to draw a line that doesn't constantly wobble. Even when I'm tracing over an existing work it's surprisingly difficult, and painstaking to go back and adjust the line. Is there some trick to this that I'm missing? If I'm drawing freehand I don't have this problem, but trying to draw with a program using a mouse is surprisingly difficult.

One of the problems of Photoshop Elements, as opposed to Photoshop, which I don't have, is that it has no pen curvature tool, so drawing smooth curved lines is a pain.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Are there other programs or ways to do this that are easier/better?

Anything free?

I have done pencil/ink drawings and watercolor paintings, then shot some digital images/photos of them — using those photos in Photoshop to enhance/modify them to get a more interesting/unique look. (or add text, etc.) Not sure if that will work with what you're trying to accomplish, but it's pretty easy to do, and it sounds like you already draw? (agree the mouse is not the right tool for drawing.)

 

[SimonDoom]

Thank you for all the input! This is quite helpful.

I've decided Photoshop Elements simply is not very useful for drawing freehand. It is reasonably effective for creating interesting effects with a photograph, including turning a photo into something that looks like a pencil sketch. But I'm really interested in an application that lets me draw and paint freehand, and Photoshop Elements isn't so great for that. I'll look into some of the alternatives.

 

[LWulf]

Sculptris is another freeware program that you can use with a mouse. As the program implies, it's like sculpting with clay, only digitally. You start with a ball that you can push/pull with various brushes and sizes. It automatically starts where half the ball is mirror image to the other half, but you can choose when to turn that off to make one side unique to the other. Apply textures (colors), etc...

 

[LWulf]

My avatar (and several drawn before it) were drawn with a mouse and Gimp. No pattern to trace from.

 

[THROBBS]

My avatar (and several drawn before it) were drawn with a mouse and Gimp. No pattern to trace from.

That is obvious Geometric vector design, which ain't "no thang" with a mouse.
Which wasn't really what Simon was asking.

I am trying to get the hang of drawing figures using digital art media.

Drawing organic shapes — figurative work, in a convincing manner, is much more difficult with a mouse. Especially if one also wants "organic" technique, ie "painterly"

I have done "hardedge" vector people and animals using Adobe Illustrator and a mouse freehand.

Sadly, Simon says (heehee) that his application, Photoshop elements, does not have a pen tool. I feel confident that there are some vector programs for free, and these days variable (limited in scope) brushes, but even those require a pressure sensitive mechanism to get full use.

Here is one example. no feet, as this one was cropped for the finished piece.
and obviously meant to stylized cartoonish. I don't know many folk who can do this free hand with a mouse... or want to. most would scan in a drawing and convert it.
I learned to do it early on (mid 1980's) as I didn't have a lot of options and my work was primarily vector based.

Though THIS image was much later.

The shadow shading was done in photoshop, but also used a mouse.

If you had (and understood) geometry/algebra/physics classes which covered vectors — direction and magnitude, it might make more sense when drawing in these programs. click a point and drag in a direction a certain distance to define the magnitude, then on to the next point. You don't have to do the math itself, but it helps to "get" what is going on.

 

[LWulf]

That is obvious Geometric vector design, which ain't "no thang" with a mouse.
Which wasn't really what Simon was asking.

Shows how much you know.
Vector is saved in SVG, CGM, EPS and XML (this website doesn't accept those formats for avatars). Raster is saved in BMP, GIF, JPeG and PiNG. (My avatar is a GIF.) Vector graphics are supposedly made with mathematical equations, and are endlessly scalable (without loss of quality in line definition). Probably something like Mandelbrot art. I don't know, I don't use math to make art. If you're going to say that the math in my art is mathematical because I use a program, then I'd say the same could be said for any stylus-based art program. Raster is defined only that it is made of square pixels. Raster art doesn't define whether a mouse or stylus is used. Technically speaking, as soon as you scan your freehand art into a computer, you make it Raster art.

I started with a dot that was at the top center of the page. I made a straight line to the bottom of the page, I repeated again horizontally. I made a huge dot in the center using the crosshairs of the lines I drew to place the dot. I made a second dot smaller than the first and placed it likewise. I redrew both lines then colored in in opposed areas. Redrew all of that on 5 different layers and colored in differing colors, and viola! Gif. All freehand. All with a mouse.

Do I have your permission to replicate one of your drawings, freehand, with a mouse? I can probably grind it out in about an hour or two. I'll take it down after you've see it, as even with permission, I don't like to post my "inked" artwork.

 

[THROBBS]

Shows how much you know.
Vector is saved in SVG, CGM, EPS and XML (this website doesn't accept those formats for avatars). Raster is saved in BMP, GIF, JPeG and PiNG. (My avatar is a GIF.) Vector graphics are supposedly made with mathematical equations, and are endlessly scalable (without loss of quality in line definition). Probably something like Mandelbrot art. I don't know, I don't use math to make art. If you're going to say that the math in my art is mathematical because I use a program, then I'd say the same could be said for any stylus-based art program. Raster is defined only that it is made of square pixels. Raster art doesn't define whether a mouse or stylus is used. Technically speaking, as soon as you scan your freehand art into a computer, you make it Raster art.

I started with a dot that was at the top center of the page. I made a straight line to the bottom of the page, I repeated again horizontally. I made a huge dot in the center using the crosshairs of the lines I drew to place the dot. I made a second dot smaller than the first and placed it likewise. I redrew both lines then colored in in opposed areas. Redrew all of that on 5 different layers and colored in differing colors, and viola! Gif. All freehand. All with a mouse.

Do I have your permission to replicate one of your drawings, freehand, with a mouse? I can probably grind it out in about an hour or two. I'll take it down after you've see it, as even with permission, I don't like to post my "inked" artwork.

Actually, that does not show How much I know.
I fully understand the principles of Pixel base art and Vector based...and technically, yes...at any given moment they are all pixels when viewed on a screen.

I taught Adobe illustrator and InDesign and Photoshop and typography at the community college.

The point is, your AV, whether made in gimp or photoshop or illustrator, followed the same principles of controlled geometry. The program controls the preciseness : vertical. perpendicular, roundness (in gimp/pixel based) limited by the resolution. It is not by virtue of the steadiness of your hand. Which is the issue when attempting to draw figures freehand with a mouse. Which was Simon's complaint.

Give it a go, redrawing one of my drawings. I am curious to see your results.


The figure above was not scanned in and traced. It was generated on the screen via vector paths using a mouse in adobe illustrator....and is NOW viewed as a saved pixel based image. In its original format it is indeed scalable as a vector image, but as soon as it is rasterized...it is what it is.

By the way, most of my drawings (pencil drawings) here are created in less than an hour, often half-hour or less. I reckon that I could not replicate them using a mouse. Not sure why I would even want to. I might, and have, scanned them in and added color, shading etc... sometimes with a mouse, but results are far superior using a stylus.


5 minutes in Illustrator (vector program)
imported into photoshop (pixel based) and saved as jpg

another 5 would make an animated gif

. Anyone prone to seizures?

3 to do tween fades

Shows a bit of what I know. And one bit is to use the appropriate tools (if available)

 

[LWulf]

So what, I have to compete and beat freehand, vector AND stylus? In time, quality and presentation???

Maybe you misread what I said, I said a stylus may be EASIER, but not the ONLY way to digitally draw. YOU lot are all manner of "Impossible! Can't be done! Can't digitally draw with a mouse! Give it up, don't even bother trying!"

The way I see it, I just have to prove you wrong.

As far as my avatar, of course it's round. I took a hard edge paintbrush and made a dot. It took what, 20 minutes to make up my avatar? All layers and create the gif to my liking (had to change it twice).

All my digital drawings, regardless if I save them to a file ext to begin with or leave off saving them until later, if I try to scale them, become pixilated (meaning they are NOT vector). I've tried endlessly scaling mine. Even PiNG and TIFF don't scale without pixilation occuring. I DON'T DO VECTOR. Not to begin with, not to end with. They are all raster.

Original:

First, the site I post to doesn't allow nude posts, so automatically I had to modify it. That should also demonstrate that I didn't HAVE to copy to do any line work. I wanted to do a tracing so you could look and see how CLOSE my digital drawing came to your pencil drawing.
Second, NOTHING was cut and paste copied from the original to this version. NO THING. Let me restate that; Not a damned thing was copied and pasted. Traced, yes, which is what inking in cartoon work is.
Third, tracing is subjective to interpretation, so somethings were easy to determine what was done before, and some of it is "huh, what is that???" So, it's not going to be a PERFECT replication. I just have to show I wasn't using "geometry" to draw. It's freehand. and with a mouse.

 

[THROBBS]

So what, I have to compete and beat freehand, vector AND stylus? In time, quality and presentation???

Maybe you misread what I said, I said a stylus may be EASIER, but not the ONLY way to digitally draw. YOU lot are all manner of "Impossible! Can't be done! Can't digitally draw with a mouse! Give it up, don't even bother trying!"

The way I see it, I just have to prove you wrong.

As far as my avatar, of course it's round. I took a hard edge paintbrush and made a dot. It took what, 20 minutes to make up my avatar? All layers and create the gif to my liking (had to change it twice).

All my digital drawings, regardless if I save them to a file ext to begin with or leave off saving them until later, if I try to scale them, become pixilated (meaning they are NOT vector). I've tried endlessly scaling mine. Even PiNG and TIFF don't scale without pixilation occuring. I DON'T DO VECTOR. Not to begin with, not to end with. They are all raster.

Original:

First, the site I post to doesn't allow nude posts, so automatically I had to modify it. That should also demonstrate that I didn't HAVE to copy to do any line work. I wanted to do a tracing so you could look and see how CLOSE my digital drawing came to your pencil drawing.
Second, NOTHING was cut and paste copied from the original to this version. NO THING. Let me restate that; Not a damned thing was copied and pasted. Traced, yes, which is what inking in cartoon work is.
Third, tracing is subjective to interpretation, so somethings were easy to determine what was done before, and some of it is "huh, what is that???" So, it's not going to be a PERFECT replication. I just have to show I wasn't using "geometry" to draw. It's freehand. and with a mouse.

That is a reasonable replicaion with a mouse.

I never said that one cannot draw with a mouse, as I do it all the time.
I know how digitlal "inking" is done.

if you are tracing, then you did "cut and paste" just to an underlying layer, which is subsequently removed. which is somewhat different than "complete freehand", from scratch, as it were.

I also question how you drew the lines of say the shoulder, arm etc.
did you use a pen tool with the mouse and then apply a brush stroke to those lines?
(much like the center grouping in my red example)...ah, I saved a screen shot during the process:

That actually IS vector, but within the confines of the resolution set for your document. A line drawn with that method — anchor points with controls (for direction and amplitude) is by definition vector...and one CAN scale the file and those vector paths will scale smoothly, but any imagery that has been applied (via airbrushes etc...is subject to the prior resolution, but can be redone at the higher resolution.

If you are able to draw those curves with a mouse, directly, using a brush tool with that fluidity, then I am very impressed. I am also unaware of the program that allows a mouse to directly taper the rush lines, I would suspect that it would have to be in conjunction with a key command or click while drawing.

Back to Simon's original post, he does not HAVE the pen tool in his application and would be limited to drawing truly freehand — click and drag with brush and would not get the line weight variations, and the lines would be "jiggly" (oops, "wobble" is the word) as he was lamenting.


So... to resolve Simon's dilemma, he either has to find a program that has a pen tool and can stroke those lines, or get stylus and pad. Finding a free program would be the least expensive (which was a hope). and gimp may be the route IF he likes that look. It is not as intuitive/natural as using a stylus. Adobe Illustrator does have the ability to "clean-up" lines immediately after they are drawn, making them more "fluid", which can be helpful, but the ai (artificial intelligence) of ai (adobe illustrator) is not always what one wants/expects.

 

[THROBBS]

for more clarity. maybe?

 

[LWulf]

Finally, it only took 17 posts before someone admitted you can draw without a stylus

There you go Simon, you don't have to go out and purchase a stylus, which is what you were asking, and you got a simple tutorial, probably better than what I would have given, but I was coming up with step by step procedures.

 

[SimonDoom]

So what, I have to compete and beat freehand, vector AND stylus? In time, quality and presentation???

Maybe you misread what I said, I said a stylus may be EASIER, but not the ONLY way to digitally draw. YOU lot are all manner of "Impossible! Can't be done! Can't digitally draw with a mouse! Give it up, don't even bother trying!"

The way I see it, I just have to prove you wrong.

As far as my avatar, of course it's round. I took a hard edge paintbrush and made a dot. It took what, 20 minutes to make up my avatar? All layers and create the gif to my liking (had to change it twice).

All my digital drawings, regardless if I save them to a file ext to begin with or leave off saving them until later, if I try to scale them, become pixilated (meaning they are NOT vector). I've tried endlessly scaling mine. Even PiNG and TIFF don't scale without pixilation occuring. I DON'T DO VECTOR. Not to begin with, not to end with. They are all raster.

Original:

First, the site I post to doesn't allow nude posts, so automatically I had to modify it. That should also demonstrate that I didn't HAVE to copy to do any line work. I wanted to do a tracing so you could look and see how CLOSE my digital drawing came to your pencil drawing.
Second, NOTHING was cut and paste copied from the original to this version. NO THING. Let me restate that; Not a damned thing was copied and pasted. Traced, yes, which is what inking in cartoon work is.
Third, tracing is subjective to interpretation, so somethings were easy to determine what was done before, and some of it is "huh, what is that???" So, it's not going to be a PERFECT replication. I just have to show I wasn't using "geometry" to draw. It's freehand. and with a mouse.

That's good! So that's with a mouse?

Would you mind describing more specifically -- keeping in mind you are talking to someone who knows almost nothing about this subject, software-wise -- how you created this image? Software? Method? How you used the mouse? Shading? Etc.

I'm finding the discussion between and Throbbs quite interesting but the terminology is somewhat -- OK, more than somewhat -- outside my expertise.

 

[THROBBS]

Finally, it only took 17 posts before someone admitted you can draw without a stylus

There you go Simon, you don't have to go out and purchase a stylus, which is what you were asking, and you got a simple tutorial, probably better than what I would have given, but I was coming up with step by step procedures.

Post 5. you CAN draw with a mouse.

 

[LWulf]

That's good! So that's with a mouse?

Would you mind describing more specifically -- keeping in mind you are talking to someone who knows almost nothing about this subject, software-wise -- how you created this image? Software? Method? How you used the mouse? Shading? Etc.

I'm finding the discussion between and Throbbs quite interesting but the terminology is somewhat -- OK, more than somewhat -- outside my expertise.

Okay, first, the image in the post you just posted was the pencil and paper original that Throbbs made, and I traced. As I promised him, I deleted my image after he had seen it. Whether tracing, copy/pasting, despite being given permission, it's still unimaginative and I don't like publicly posting that stuff.

I trace(copy) it for practice to keep certain skills active, but I don't (like to) share.

For a limited time, Throbbs post still has my drawing in his posting, but the interwebs will update that shortly, then... poof!

Second, I'm trying to make up a tutorial for how to basically understand what I made up (or how to do such things), but for me, it's slow going. I'm detail oriented, and have a wicked case of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

To answer your questions simply, The program I used was GIMP 2.88.2 however the latest version is up to 3.22 I believe. I can't use 3.22 because it isn't stable for my environment (environments are Windows, Apple, Linux). It will install in any of those environments, but you should ask which version you should use for your environment.

 

[THROBBS]

That's good! So that's with a mouse?

Would you mind describing more specifically -- keeping in mind you are talking to someone who knows almost nothing about this subject, software-wise -- how you created this image? Software? Method? How you used the mouse? Shading? Etc.

I'm finding the discussion between and Throbbs quite interesting but the terminology is somewhat -- OK, more than somewhat -- outside my expertise.

The drawing in your quote, is mine, drawn with a mechanical pencil.
The one above it (now gone, but is still lingering in my quote*) was digitally "inked" using a mouse. He will tell you how he did that.

*it's likely that you cannot see Lwulf's image at all. Do you see two versions in either his post, or my quote of his?