Polygamy on the rise?

AllardChardon

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Does anyone else find this ruling on polygamy as interesting as I do?

A Utah Law Prohibiting Polygamy Is Weakened
By JOHN SCHWARTZ
Published: December 14, 2013

A federal judge has struck down parts of Utah’s anti-polygamy law as unconstitutional in a case brought by a polygamous star of a reality television series. Months after the Supreme Court bolstered rights of same-sex couples, the Utah case could open a new frontier in the nation’s recognition of once-prohibited relationships.

Judge Clark Waddoups of United States District Court in Utah ruled late Friday that part of the state’s law prohibiting “cohabitation” — the language used in the law to restrict polygamous relationships — violates the First Amendment guarantee of free exercise of religion, as well as constitutional due process. He left standing the state’s ability to prohibit multiple marriages “in the literal sense” of having two or more valid marriage licenses.

Judge Waddoups, who was appointed by President George W. Bush, wrote a 91-page decision that reflects — and reflects upon — the nation’s changing attitude toward government regulation of personal affairs and unpopular groups. The Supreme Court supported the power of states to restrict polygamy in an 1879 decision, Reynolds v. United States.

Judge Waddoups made clear that the Brown case was not an easy one for him, writing, “The proper outcome of this issue has weighed heavily on the court for many months.” He noted the shifts in the way the Constitution has been interpreted over the past century to increase protection for groups and individuals spurned by the majority.

“To state the obvious,” Judge Waddoups wrote, “the intervening years have witnessed a significant strengthening of numerous provisions of the Bill of Rights.” They include, he wrote, enhancements of the right to privacy and a shift in the Supreme Court’s posture “that is less inclined to allow majoritarian coercion of unpopular or disliked minority groups,” especially when “religious prejudice,” racism or “some other constitutionally suspect motivation can be discovered behind such legislation.”

The challenge to the law was brought by Kody Brown, who, along with his four wives and 17 children, stars in “Sister Wives,” the reality television show. The family argued that the state’s prohibition on cohabitation violated its rights to privacy and religious freedom. The Browns are members of the Apostolic United Brethren Church, a fundamentalist offshoot of the Mormon Church, which gave up polygamy around 1890 as Utah was seeking statehood.

The judge cited the decision in Lawrence v. Texas, the 2003 Supreme Court case that struck down laws prohibiting sodomy. He quoted the majority opinion by Justice Anthony M. Kennedy that stated the Constitution protects people from “unwarranted government intrusions into a dwelling or other private places” and “an autonomy of self that includes freedom of thought, belief, expression and certain intimate conduct.”

In a statement, Mr. Brown said he and his family were “humbled and grateful for this historical ruling from the court today.” He noted that “many people do not approve of plural families,” but “we hope that in time all of our neighbors and fellow citizens will come to respect our own choices as part of this wonderful country of different faiths and beliefs.”

As same-sex marriage has gained popular approval and legal status in recent years, some have hoped — and some feared — that other forms of cohabitation might follow. Justice Antonin Scalia, in his bitter and famous dissent from the 2003 Lawrence case, said the nation was on the verge of the end of legislation based on morality, and was opening the door to legalizing “bigamy, same-sex marriage, adult incest, prostitution, masturbation, adultery, fornication, bestiality and obscenity.”

Jonathan Turley, a law professor at George Washington University who represented the Browns in this case, disagreed with Justice Scalia’s reasoning and said in an exchange of emails that the case “is about privacy rather than polygamy.” He added, “Homosexuals and polygamists do have a common interest: the right to be left alone as consenting adults. There is no spectrum of private consensual relations — there is just a right of privacy that protects all people so long as they do not harm others.”

Utah’s attorney general’s office has suggested in the past that it would appeal any decision that struck down the polygamy law. Attorney General John Swallow resigned last month under a cloud of multiple investigations, and his replacement has not been named.

Mr. Turley said an appeal by the state would be unwise, adding, “Utah has been on the wrong side of history in fighting privacy, and they would now be on the wrong side of the law as well.”
 
Poligamy

Bottom line is. You can live with as many women in the house as you want to but you can only be legally married to one of them.
For my part one is all I can handle anyway.
 
I do understand how it works. What I find so interesting is until the Gay Rights people gained their sexual freedom and acceptance, the polygamists were kept at bay for a very long time. Of course, it all started with Martin Luther King, Jr. and the Civil Rights movement. If not for him, the world would be a much less tolerant place.
 
I must admit that Big Love also had a lot to do with the changing attitude towards polygamists. Over a hundred and fifty years ago, the Latter-day Saints strove for a kind of freedom so foreign to most Christians, they were shunned everywhere they went. Retreating to the high desert that no one else wanted, they practiced their God-given rights, first openly and later in hiding. There were actually bounty hunters tracking polygamists and bringing them in for justice and money. Romney's family left the U.S. and set up shop in Mexico. Therefore, the Latter-day Saints have endured a very protracted persecution, which is only now lifting.

BTW, I am not a Mormon, but have studied them at length for my historical erotica novels.
 
I look forward to a society where a major role of government is to enforce personal contracts between consenting adults, and not to prohibit the free association of consenting adults.

'Personal contracts' include marriage between two or more adults.
'Free association' includes living with whomever the fuck we want.

I've seen more than a few stories here dealing with Circle Of Love polyamory and other group marriages. Many of these stories are raw fantasies, of course. But they reflect the reality that human sexuality and genetics are much more complex than legal codes suppose. I touch upon this in my piece The Total Moron's Guide to SAME-SEX MARRIAGE.

But I promise, I would never marry a dolphin. Cohabit, maybe...
 
Justice Antonin Scalia, in his bitter and famous dissent from the 2003 Lawrence case, said the nation was on the verge of the end of legislation based on morality, and was opening the door to legalizing “bigamy, same-sex marriage, adult incest, prostitution, masturbation, adultery, fornication, bestiality and obscenity.”

OMG, what? They might legalize masturbation? *faints.*

Anyway, after seeing the ridiculous unwieldy procedure when just 2 people get divorced, I hate to think what would happen if a group of 12 legally married people decided to divorce each other (or divorce a subset of the other people. Or something.) Maybe that's why they upheld the state's right not to go there? :rolleyes: They'd need to do some major rethinking of the system for breaking up, first. Mind you, that's long overdue anyway.
 
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I have no objection to adults living together in whatever sort of arrangement that they want. However, do have a VERY STRONG objection to paying for adults living together in whatever sort of arrangement that they want.
Most of the modern polygamists finance their lifestyle with government charity. I have to pay taxes to support a polygamist lifestyle. That I object to.
 
I look forward to a society where a major role of government is to enforce personal contracts between consenting adults, and not to prohibit the free association of consenting adults.

'Personal contracts' include marriage between two or more adults.
'Free association' includes living with whomever the fuck we want.

Well put.

As for R. Richard's comment on supporting polygamy with government charity, I think he's conflating two issues here. I don't see how government supporting three wives on welfare is different from supporting one wife on welfare.

One final comment. If polygamy is finally allowed, can polyandry be far behind? How would you guys feel about being co-husbands? As for me, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, but I wouldn't want to prevent anybody else from trying it out.
 
Well put.

As for R. Richard's comment on supporting polygamy with government charity, I think he's conflating two issues here. I don't see how government supporting three wives on welfare is different from supporting one wife on welfare.

One final comment. If polygamy is finally allowed, can polyandry be far behind? How would you guys feel about being co-husbands? As for me, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, but I wouldn't want to prevent anybody else from trying it out.

Polyandry ?
Now that raises a few issue about inheritance and so on, don't it?
 
There is a woman who lives nearby and she has two mates and everyone seems fine with the arrangement. Of course, all of them are from Europe originally.

The Church of the Latter-day Saints are really good at taking care of their own thru their tithing practices, so it makes me wonder how many polygamists are really on government assistance? I would suppose it is a smaller number than many other Christians sects.

Live and Let Live, (without harm to another), is the way to proceed on all matters of the heart (and genitals). IMHO.
 
I'm all for getting rid of government prohibitions between consenting adults. There should be no law against a men or women adults cohabiting in whatever civilized manner works for them.

As for marriage...the problem is that the government is involved with that and there are laws about what a wife/husband legally get when they marry. This is why gay marriage became a topic. Because a gay couple couldn't get the same benefits as a married heterosexual couple, including right to decide what kind of medical treatment an incapacitated partner in the hospital would want.

So unless the government gets out of the marriage business, I don't see a change in the "one-spouse-only" law, as marriage is about what legal rights go to whom and the government probably can argue that it need not give those to more than one spouse—and probably shouldn't as it would become way too complicated (I'm not just thinking poly—I'm thinking group marriages, etc.). If the government gets out of the marriage biz (which I think it should), and doesn't offer benefits to married couples or dictate the law on who gets to do what in a marriage...if all that is left up to the participants in a marriage and the contracts they must create before being recognized as married in the secular world, then multiple partnerships will probably become more common, or at least more visible.
 
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As for R. Richard's comment on supporting polygamy with government charity, I think he's conflating two issues here. I don't see how government supporting three wives on welfare is different from supporting one wife on welfare.

One specific difference is that it costs at least three times as much to support three wives on welfare as it does to support one wife on welfare. Three times the cost makes a difference in my taxes.
 
I agree with you, 3113, that marriage laws have a huge part in this subject. But, the protection that most people seek in a marriage is a very tangible thing. Because I was married to my husband, who passed away, I am eligible for widow's benefits. Friends of mine, who have never married for one reason or the other, do not have the same safety net available to them. That is sad.

If we were allowed to draw up our own marriage contracts, it might be difficult to get social security involved, especially with multiple wives that all want to receive benefits from one husband, or vice versa.

There is so much more to a marriage than just living together, for better or worse.

I never thought we humans could come so far in our thinking about relationships in what seems like such a short time, when compared to the history of nuptials worldwide. We are expanding in ways and views that I thought were impossibly resistant to change. Very encouraging, indeed.
 
Well put.

As for R. Richard's comment on supporting polygamy with government charity, I think he's conflating two issues here. I don't see how government supporting three wives on welfare is different from supporting one wife on welfare.

One final comment. If polygamy is finally allowed, can polyandry be far behind? How would you guys feel about being co-husbands? As for me, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, but I wouldn't want to prevent anybody else from trying it out.

Pedant hat on - "polygamy" already includes polyandry. The term that's specifically for multiple wives is "polygyny". But "polygyny" and "polygamy" get confused a lot because pretty much all of the polygamy visible to the US is religiously-mandated polygyny.

Some polyamorous folk would count as polygamous, but a lot of us avoid the word because of those religious connotations. I haven't been monogamous in more than ten years but I find FLDS-style polygamy creepy as hell. When you've got a system where men are expected to have multiple wives and women aren't allowed to have multiple husbands... there are several ways to make the numbers work out and none of them are good.
 
I feel this thread is moving into some VERY deep water.
I confess to not understanding all the ramifications so far outlined.

But, and it's quite a bit BUT:

Allard, please why: "Of course, all of them are from Europe originally. "
As I understood it, a very large part of the USA population is made up of ex-Europeans:
(You did not indicate how long ago they or their families came from Europe).
And does being "from Europe" make them any less logical, civilised or human ?

R. Richard:
"However, do have a VERY STRONG objection to paying for adults living together in whatever sort of arrangement that they want."
As I understand a taxation system, it's not the particular parts that you (as in the individual) can control; only the voices of the 'elected' who (are supposed) to speak on your behalf in a place set aside for that purpose.
So it's not an individual's objection to a particular thing, you should be telling your Representatives (and I mean that it its broadest sense; over here it would be my MP) what your views are on a particular subject.

There are other matters, too. to say a polygamous family of a dozen or so, assumes that the 'head' of that family (matriarch or patriarch) has the ability to feed & clothe said family and lives in a community where local arrangements are in place to aid the destitute ("circle the wagons" ?).

Just a foreigner's reaction so far to an interesting debate.
:)
 
The Church of the Latter-day Saints are really good at taking care of their own thru their tithing practices, so it makes me wonder how many polygamists are really on government assistance? I would suppose it is a smaller number than many other Christians sects.
IMHO.

The Church of the Latter-day Saints DON'T approve of polygamy. They gave it up some years back, with a gun pointed at their heads, but they did give it up. The polygamists are outcasts, who mainly live in rural areas, where the law doesn't much reach.
 
Because I was married to my husband, who passed away, I am eligible for widow's benefits. Friends of mine, who have never married for one reason or the other, do not have the same safety net available to them. That is sad.

If we were allowed to draw up our own marriage contracts, it might be difficult to get social security involved, especially with multiple wives that all want to receive benefits from one husband, or vice versa.
Um, but at this point multiple wives DO NOT get the benefits either, do they? Just the wife who is considered legally married to the man. She gets 'em and if she decides not to share, the other wives are out in the cold because they're not considered wives. I mean, okay, so the government changes its mind and allows anyone as many spouses as they like...if a husband with three wives dies, what happens now? What if they don't stay together and use the money as a family? Do they split the benefits? What if one wife has a great job and doesn't need them but the other two do? What if one has more kids than the others and needs more?

How can the government possibly come up with a rule book that will fairly cover every scenario for such marriages? :confused:

IF, however, the government stays out of the decision of who gets what benefits, and all involved in the marriage agree that if any one of them dies, the SS benefits will be split between the rest of them as a group—then if there's trouble, a judge can just say, "This is the contract you signed and agreed to. This is what happens."

IMHO, if we want the government OUT of the business of telling us who we can co-habitate with, have life-partnerships with and children with...then we also have to be willing to accept responsibility for those decisions. If we're to be treated as adults who an manage our affairs, then we must act like adults who manage our affairs. Including who gets care of the children of a wife/husband in the event of their passing, including who decides medical treatment for a wife/husband/child if wife/husband is incapacitated and can't decide for themselves or their biological child, including inheritance of homes, social security, etc.

We either know what we and our partners want, or we don't. If we don't, then we have no business getting into a partnership with them.
 
Well put.

As for R. Richard's comment on supporting polygamy with government charity, I think he's conflating two issues here. I don't see how government supporting three wives on welfare is different from supporting one wife on welfare.

One final comment. If polygamy is finally allowed, can polyandry be far behind? How would you guys feel about being co-husbands? As for me, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, but I wouldn't want to prevent anybody else from trying it out.

I can't imagine why it would make sense to legalize one and not the other. Why wouldn't both come at the same time?
 
How would you guys feel about being co-husbands? As for me, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, but I wouldn't want to prevent anybody else from trying it out.
I may find the multiple husband idea intriguing, but I'm enough of an oddball that I think it'd be hard to find a second guy who knows me as well and can take as good care of me as my one husband.

Besides, he's one of a kind. I suspect your wife thinks the same of you, jehoram. ;)
 
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Guess the assumption of the thread is that cohusbands would necessarily just be sharing the wife and not each other? :rolleyes:

I could do with a cohusband if he was bi, young, rich, and built (and would do the dishes, take the garbage out, and take the cars in for servicing).
 
Guess the assumption of the thread is that cohusbands would necessarily just be sharing the wife and not each other?
Not my assumption, dude ;) Remember, I mentioned group marriages and to my mind that means the wife doesn't just say she's got two husbands, but each of the husbands say, "I've a wife and a husband." Likewise if a husband had two wives the wives would say, "i've a husband and a wife." Or there might be two wives and two husbands, all sharing each other as well as the household expenses, chores and children produced.

But as polygamy—pretty much by definition—has a husband with multiple wives who see themselves as "sisters" and not wives to any but the husband, why wouldn't one assume the same with polyandry (i.e. when using that word)? The husband would see themselves as brothers to each other and husbands only to the wife.

Which has me wondering...if gay marriage is legal in a state, and so is multiple partners, what would one call a marriage with a group of husbands? or a group of wives? :confused:
 
Handley, please forgive my vagueness, I am still suffering from driving too many miles to discuss. What I meant was that this particular group of two husbands and one wife, all born in Europe, were way more open-minded and forward-thinking than the usual hillbillies that live in my area. Therefore, they stood out in my mind as quite advanced and admirable.

3113, yes, marriage contracts drawn up and signed by the people involved, without any government action, would solve a lot of problems. It is a very sound idea and one that I hope takes hold and flourishes.

I think if polygamy is allowed legally, many Mormons will go back to the practice and those already practicing it in the closet will come on out. It is not about sex and never was. Lustful sex will lead to eternal damnation in their thinking. Procreation is paramount, of course, but, it is also about their inheritance in heaven, measured out by the size of one man's family. The larger the family, the bigger the inheritance and Brigham Young had a very large family at the end of his long life.
 
Justice Antonin Scalia, in his bitter and famous dissent from the 2003 Lawrence case, said the nation was on the verge of the end of legislation based on morality, and was opening the door to legalizing “bigamy, same-sex marriage, adult incest, prostitution, masturbation, adultery, fornication, bestiality and obscenity.”

This part has more worrying parts, especially where it is suggested that masturbation and fornication are illegal. That's strange.

I'm quite OK with the part where a person is allowed to have only one valid marriage certificate. So no bigamy in a legal sense, though if people like to live together and are happy with it, fine. All the other things, with possible exception for bestiality, are not supposed to be illegal. Regulated maybe, certainly not illegal.
 
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