Less than perfect characters

[Trionyx]

In my author profile I wrote, “My stories frequently feature people with flaws, just as we all have, and I believe they can make the situations more interesting.” Basically, I don’t write about perfect people falling in love and having flawless sex. No, I write about some people with insecurities, anxieties, physical flaws and medical issues. I have written about abuse, trauma and death. It is what I do and I hope most of the readers enjoy the stories.

It seems however, many readers want the characters to be ideal and anything less generates pushback. What amazes me is the number of negative remarks I get about stories in which the female main character is less than perfect. There are nowhere as many negative comments about the MMCs.

Cases in point:

Marita at Bat features a poor Latina trying to raise two kids by herself. She turns away from the MMC when her ex returns to the scene with the (misguided) hope the ex would be a good influence on her kids. That doesn’t work out and she ultimately gets back with the MMC. From some of the comments, one would have thought she was the world’s biggest bitch for making such a hard decision as a mother.

I Hate Miles Bonn features a woman who dislikes the MMC but is attracted to him physically. Before she acts on her desires, she ends up going on-line and hooking up with another guy for a period of several months before she terminates that relationship. It wasn’t until over a year later that she even got together with the MMC. I was scolded that ‘fucking other guys isn’t romantic at all.’

You Left Me a Long, Long Time Ago has the FMC leave the relationship because the MMC violated their understanding about his work impacting their lives together. (He realizes the error of his ways and eventually they have their HEA.) You would have thought she was a world class bitch and numerous comments put the blame exclusively on her and not him or even them together.

Now, I’m not claiming my writing is superb or, for that matter, even above average. But I frequently portray things as they might actually happen in real life and folks, in real life people aren’t perfect.

Is this a spillover from the LW cesspool, do readers want nothing but perfection in the female characters or am I being idealistic in hoping the readers want some meat in the stories? Thoughts?

My stories: https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=4181791&page=submissions

 

[Euphony]

What amazes me is the number of negative remarks I get about stories in which the female main character is less than perfect.

Misogyny is alive and well all over Lit, not just LW.

There's a loud subset of readers who believe all erotica is escapism and "who wants to fuck normal women?" Doubly so if they have their own needs and wants.

 

[Euphony]

I get some "Well, she needs therapy, huh?" type comments.

I sometimes wonder the percentage of people who say "get therapy" who've actually experienced therapy.

Gotta be single digits, right?

 

[madelinemasoch]

Is this a spillover from the LW cesspool, do readers want nothing but perfection in the female characters or am I being idealistic in hoping the readers want some meat in the stories? Thoughts?

Certain people, the LW cesspool included (really just BTB), scan any piece of writing they can find for signs of the FMC being an abuser, a rapist, a torturer, even a murderer or a terrorist in the making, really... They extrapolate insignificant details into evidence of any of the following, or even all five! They see actions that would count as "normal sex" if done by a man to a woman as "disturbing abuse" when a woman does it to a man. These people are very overconfident and also quite sarcastic! (They're also not writers themselves).

It's almost like they have an agenda against you.

 

[Rob_Royale]

For me and I guess a lot of readers, erotica is about escapism. So from that perspective, I can understand the negative reactions. Anyone who's ever had their heart ripped out isn't looking for stories that reflect too much of reality.

 

[Trionyx]

For me and I guess a lot of readers, erotica is about escapism. So from that perspective, I can understand the negative reactions. Anyone who's ever had their heart ripped out isn't looking for stories that reflect too much of reality.

Good point.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Who's perfect? Well, maybe some of my characters think another of my characters is perfect. But trust me, they ain't perfect either. It's obvious to those who read my stuff nobody's perfect. Noah Body is Perfect, what a title.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Less than perfect characters​

I guess it’s for others to say whether or not the women in my stories are idealized. Some are, particularly where I have idealized their genesis IRL.

From my POV - even when I wrote my first stories here (under a male pseudonym - yes we all know and it’s getting old bringing it up) - I wrote insecurities and flaws (real or imaginary) into my work. Even when I was the FMC.

The longer I have written, the more that broken and hurt people have dominated my more realistic stories (I still write fun porn romps and silly fantasy stuff - though even that has developed a bit of an edge recently). Starting with Fragile, trauma has been a theme. Death of a spouse (four times I think). Divorce (at least twice). Sexual assault (several times). Lack of self-worth / respect. Even ED (twice). And so on. Many of my characters are seeking healing, whether they know it or not.

If there is any underlying message in what I write (highly debatable I know), it’s my belief that consensual sex - of pretty much any type - can be a healing force.

Sorry - way too serious. I know.

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

I get some "Well, she needs therapy, huh?" type comments.

She's a self-insert. Thanks.

I’ve had that too .

Plus the characters being called deviant (in a pejorative sense) when at least somewhat based on the author.

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

I sometimes wonder the percentage of people who say "get therapy" who've actually experienced therapy.

Gotta be single digits, right?

I think people who haven’t experienced it IRL tend to think of Woody Allen movies or The Sopranos.

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

For me and I guess a lot of readers, erotica is about escapism. So from that perspective, I can understand the negative reactions. Anyone who's ever had their heart ripped out isn't looking for stories that reflect too much of reality.

I’d agree if there is not some resolution. But if the hurt party finds solace, I think there is an appetite for that. I’d cite Mors Immatura as a primary example.

Em

 

[AchtungNight]

I put in flawed characters too. The majority of my characters are sex addicts to various degrees. Female and male participants. And they indulge in various levels of deviant behavior. Some have depression issues, alcoholism, biases they need to get rid of… The therapist is included in the number of the flawed people from a certain point of view.

 

[Euphony]

I think people who haven’t experienced it IRL tend to think of Woody Allen movies or The Sopranos.

Em

Interestingly, I've had to do research for a story and it's fascinating how poor media representation is of the actual realities of psychotherapy.

Maybe I'm more out of the loop than most but I was surprised how easy it is to fall into convenience tropes when you think you're just using common examples.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Interestingly, I've had to do research for a story and it's fascinating how poor media representation is of the actual realities of psychotherapy.

Maybe I'm more out of the loop than most but I was surprised how easy it is to fall into convenience tropes when you think you're just using common examples.

I tried to do CBT justice in a story. It’s not that easy to capture in an authorial context.

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

My argument against this is sometimes seeing nothing but perfection can drive people deeper into depression about their own life.

Sometimes seeing dark, gritty, and realistically flawed characters can make it feel more acceptable to be damaged while still finding pleasure in sex and sensuality.

Sometimes people need dark to cope with even darker experiences.

Agree with this.

Em

 

[Euphony]

"Write what you know" my experiences in therapists offices and hospitals comes in real handy sometimes.

Of course, the examples I would most likely come across would be individuals who had significant experience in both field but it *felt* like there was a certain fluidity between the two professions.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I got absolutely nothing out of CBT except 45 minutes of petting a bunny first thing in the morning.

EMDR did wonders for me and I still don't quite get how it works.

Different things work for different people.

Em

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

They see actions that would count as "normal sex" if done by a man to a woman as "disturbing abuse" when a woman does it to a man. These people are very overconfident and also quite sarcastic! (They're also not writers themselves).

Yes, you got me. It would never have occurred to me that there was something wrong with your stories if it was a woman who had been locked up in an underground cage, completely immobilized and robbed of any sensations apart from pain, for two whole days before she's being publicly raped up the ass in an attempt to break her. THAT would've been TOTALLY normal!!1!!11!!one!! It's just that you wrote about all of that happening to a guy that my butt clenched shut and I took offense at your sadistic torture fantasies.

Also, while I often make sarcastic comments, claiming I'm not a writer myself is just lazy.


And regarding Op's opening post:

This is the internet. You will not be able to make everyone happy. All you can do is decide who/what you're writing for, and then stick with that. Derive pleasure from the knowledge that you make some people happy, instead of whining about the dozen or so people who are not happy with the free content they just consumed.

If, however, you write for the recognition... stop complaining and start writing what they want. Simple, really.

 

[madelinemasoch]

Also, while I often make sarcastic comments, claiming I'm not a writer myself is just lazy.

 

[JGittes]

I checked the category of the three stories you mentioned, and as I suspected, it was Romance. The comments you mentioned are not spill-over from LW but romance devotees' gentle admonition that you are not adhering to the strict expectations of the genre.

A few years ago, I got sick of the generally violent state of the world and did a deep dive into romance novels; my e-reader says over 250 of them. They are completely formulaic, and well-written ones provide both an escape from the world and, from a writer's perspective, an interesting writing 'workshop.' 'True' bad things happen before the story begins or within the first thousand words of the story. The FMC doesn't have sex (in the story timeline) until she has it with the MMC, while the MMC may rarely have sex (again in the story timeline) with someone other than the FMC, but once the FMC and MMC hook up, they do not have sex with anyone else again. Whatever temptations (or writerly misdirections to create conflict) that may occur after the big hook-up are ultimately resisted.

There are many sub-genres in romance, but the vast majority I read strictly follow the formula. They are meant to allow the reader to experience the emotional ups and downs of relationships without directly experiencing (through the FMC) the heartbreaking pain of real life.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I Hate Miles Bonn features a woman who dislikes the MMC but is attracted to him physically. Before she acts on her desires, she ends up going on-line and hooking up with another guy for a period of several months before she terminates that relationship. It wasn’t until over a year later that she even got together with the MMC. I was scolded that ‘fucking other guys isn’t romantic at all.’

That one was posted in Romance. As a genre, romance does tend to come with a strong expectation that the main characters will be monogamous once the main action starts, and to be fair it generally does apply to the MMC too. Not arguing with your other examples but this one isn't necessarily part of the double standard.

I did get away with a Romance story where the relationship between the two FMCs begins while one of them is still married to somebody else, but that one was a marriage of convenience between a gay man and his lesbian friend who needed to pass as straight.

I sometimes wonder the percentage of people who say "get therapy" who've actually experienced therapy.

Gotta be single digits, right?

Of course, when strangers on the internet say "get therapy", they don't actually mean "I believe that you could benefit from the aid of a mental health professional". Usually it's closer to "you're crazy and your ideas are shit and you should be locked up in a padded cell so nobody will hear from you again."

 

[ronde]

Every one of my characters will be considered flawed in someone's eyes, and that's intentional. Regardless of what some people fantasize about, the perfect woman and perfect man don't exist. It's the flaws that make characters interesting and worth the time to read about. It's also interesting to see how their partners contend with those flaws and the results of that attempt. It's by exploiting those flaws and attempts at resolution that a writer can use to generate a believable story.

 

[Trionyx]

This is the internet. You will not be able to make everyone happy. All you can do is decide who/what you're writing for, and then stick with that. Derive pleasure from the knowledge that you make some people happy, instead of whining about the dozen or so people who are not happy with the free content they just consumed.

If, however, you write for the recognition... stop complaining and start writing what they want. Simple, really.

I hope I didn’t appear to ‘whine’ or ‘complain.’ I was truly looking for an explanation to the question of why FMCs tend to be judged far more harshly than MMCs. I appreciate what others have written about this subject. Thanks. BTW, I fully anticipate continuing to write as I have all along.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I hope I didn’t appear to ‘whine’ or ‘complain.’ I was truly looking for an explanation to the question of why FMCs tend to be judged far more harshly than MMCs. I appreciate what others have written about this subject. Thanks. BTW, I fully anticipate continuing to write as I have all along.

You're right there. The dots that need connecting are right there. I bet you can get there all on your own. Try replacing FMC with women and MMC with men.

On the one hand, some self-reflection is helpful for understanding the impact your characters can have on readers. You, as the author, have a lot of power over your readers to the extent that you care to curate the experience of your story. You can make them feel. On the other hand, I don't think it's helpful to spend time trying to figure out which story elements resonate with readers for its own sake. That is the path of the dark side, writing fan service that gets the strongest reaction specifically for the reaction.

 

[AwkwardMD]

TLDR: Don't sweat it. You do you.