H.R. 899: “The Department of Education shall terminate on December 31, 2018.”

[EternalFantasy]

Not everyone, just every RW except for Colonel Hogan. He's the only Liticon with more than three cells between his ears.

True. You did say every RW.

 

[PrincepsCyberius]

What test is federally mandated?

Are you really this uninformed?

The centerpiece of the bill is the requirement that states develop and implement "challenging" academic standards in reading and math, set annual statewide progress objectives to ensure that all groups of students reach proficiency within 12 years, and then test children annually in grades 3 through 8, in reading and math, to measure their progress.

- No Child Left Behind - The New Rules | Testing Our Schools, PBS Frontline (emphasis added) (citations omitted).​

Or, if that's not clear enough for you, then:

No Child Left Behind requires all public schools receiving federal funding to administer a statewide standardized test annually to all students.

- No Child Left Behind Act, Wikipedia (emphasis added) citing Dillon, Erin & Rotherham, Andy. "States' Evidence: What It Means to Make 'Adequate Yearly Progress' Under NCLB".​

You know, Sgt, Spidey, I've seen your comments here and on other threads, and you must be about the most uninformed person on the GB (and that's saying a lot) regarding the subjects on which you choose to comment. Then again, what can one expect from a supposedly grown man who names himself after a comic book character?

Please step back and let the adults debate intelligently while you read the news from all parts of the political spectrum until you understand the matters on which you're commenting.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

*chuckle*

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

Are you really this uninformed?

The centerpiece of the bill is the requirement that states develop and implement "challenging" academic standards in reading and math, set annual statewide progress objectives to ensure that all groups of students reach proficiency within 12 years, and then test children annually in grades 3 through 8, in reading and math, to measure their progress.

- No Child Left Behind - The New Rules | Testing Our Schools, PBS Frontline (emphasis added) (citations omitted).​

Or, if that's not clear enough for you, then:

No Child Left Behind requires all public schools receiving federal funding to administer a statewide standardized test annually to all students.

- No Child Left Behind Act, Wikipedia (emphasis added) citing Dillon, Erin & Rotherham, Andy. "States' Evidence: What It Means to Make 'Adequate Yearly Progress' Under NCLB".​

You know, Sgt, Spidey, I've seen your comments here and on other threads, and you must be about the most uninformed person on the GB (and that's saying a lot) regarding the subjects on which you choose to comment. Then again, what can one expect from a supposedly grown man who names himself after a comic book character?

Please step back and let the adults debate intelligently while you read the news from all parts of the political spectrum until you understand the matters on which you're commenting.

So we're in 100% agreement, there was no federally mandated test, which is what the links you provided just backed me up on. IF a state wanted federal money each individual state had 100% control in making their own test.

You were wrong and resorted to name calling, that's not too uncommon around here.

 

[EternalFantasy]

So we're in 100% agreement, there was no federally mandated test, which is what the links you provided just backed me up on. IF a state wanted federal money each individual state had 100% control in making their own test.

You were wrong and resorted to name calling, that's not too uncommon around here.

It's federal money, being given to states. States changed the standards of the test in order to reduce its quality and have a higher student proficiency rate, to avoid sanctions by the federal bill called no child left behind.

This I posted to you several times.

It is painful to have to spoon feed morons.

Please follow advice and get laid.

 

[BotanyBoy]

It's federal money, being given to states. States changed the standards of the test in order to reduce its quality and have a higher student proficiency rate, to avoid sanctions by the federal bill called no child left behind.

No, states are compliant to get their welfare, they don't have to do shit.

Texas can at any time tell the fed to go fuck itself and do their own thing, pay their own way.

But they want that gubbmint cheese just like everyone else, so they do their testing.

 

[EternalFantasy]

No, states are compliant to get their welfare, they don't have to do shit.

Texas can at any time tell the fed to go fuck itself and do their own thing, pay their own way.

But they want that gubbmint cheese just like everyone else, so they do their testing.

When you shut down a school thru repeated sanctions, how do you do it? Don't you cut funds and divert them to a charter or private school?

http://216.114.200.148/Public/MSBA_Docs/Sanctions Chart.pdf?CFID=4986456&CFTOKEN=90026554

 

[EternalFantasy]

And there:

Under No Child Left Behind, schools were held almost exclusively accountable for absolute levels of student performance. But that meant that even schools that were making great strides with students were still labeled as "failing" just because the students had not yet made it all the way to a "proficient" level of achievement. Since 2005, the U.S. Department of Education has approved 15 states to implement growth model pilots. Each state adopted one of four distinct growth models: Trajectory, Transition Tables, Student Growth Percentiles, and Projection.[25]

The incentives for improvement also may cause states to lower their official standards. Because each state can produce its own standardized tests, a state can make its statewide tests easier to increase scores.[26] Missouri, for example, improved testing scores but openly admitted that they lowered the standards.[27] A 2007 study by the U.S. Dept. of Education indicates that the observed differences in states' reported scores is largely due to differences in the stringency of their standards.[28]


Which was exactly my point.

 

[BotanyBoy]

When you shut down a school thru repeated sanctions, how do you do it? Don't you cut funds and divert them to a charter or private school?

http://216.114.200.148/Public/MSBA_Docs/Sanctions Chart.pdf?CFID=4986456&CFTOKEN=90026554

What's that got to do with anything I said?

 

[EternalFantasy]

What's that got to do with anything I said?

What you said was in reply to what I said; which you started off by saying 'no'.

 

[BotanyBoy]

What you said was in reply to what I said; which you started off by saying 'no'.

Still no connection.


The feds/DOE is not forcing any states to do standardized testing.

 

[EternalFantasy]

Still no connection.


The feds/DOE is not forcing any states to do standardized testing.

Read more details on NCLB and the incentives involved, sanctions, and standardized tests that measure the performance.

 

[Conager]

So we're in 100% agreement, there was no federally mandated test, which is what the links you provided just backed me up on. IF a state wanted federal money each individual state had 100% control in making their own test.

You were wrong and resorted to name calling, that's not too uncommon around here.

You cannot possibly be 100% in agreement with a position that you never bothered to express.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Read more details on NCLB and the incentives involved, sanctions, and standardized tests that measure the performance.

Yea, not seeing where states are being forced to take federal funding and thus force their kids into standard tests.

As far as I can tell all a state has to do to stop the testing and run their own education system is to quit taking the federal welfare.

Do you have evidence to the contrary?

Personally I don't think the fed should even be fucking with education, that should be a state issue, and the only thing the fed should do about education is preserve each states right to do whatever the fuck they want as a state.

If Mississippi wants to teach their kids the Earth is flat, that's their bidnizz and the other 49 states need to fuck off and worry about brainwashing their own fuck trophies.

 

[EternalFantasy]

Yea, not seeing where states are being forced to take federal funding and thus force their kids into standard tests.

As far as I can tell all a state has to do to stop the testing and run their own education system is to quit taking the federal welfare.

Do you have evidence to the contrary?

I don't have to prove the negative. You came into a conversation without reading it's previous posts.

Personally I don't think the fed should even be fucking with education, that should be a state issue

My premise in this thread and my critique of no child left behind as a failed initiative to improve educational performance, was to support this bill HR 899, and perhaps introduce chartered and semi-private instead.

But if a state insists on a public and syndicated educational system, then I support the FED telling the State to fuck off, and helping the kids.


Btw. Less weed = better memory in both cells and quality of those cells.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I don't have to prove the negative. You came into a conversation without reading it's previous posts.

It's not a negative.

You say the government is forcing states to do standardized testing right?

I'm asking you to prove it.

But if a state insists on a public and syndicated educational system, then I support the FED telling the State to fuck off, and helping the kids.

Why is it so hard for people to just let others suffer the consequences of their own stupidity?

Btw. Less weed = better memory in both cells and quality of those cells.

Yea it has adverse effects on short term memory in some cases, faster functioning however in pretty much all cases if you follow science and not propaganda. The scientist with all the coolest toys think that's why a disproportionately large percentage of humanities greatest thinkers, dreamers and artist are all potheads.

But seeing I was retired from necessary work at 31 with a pretty slick military career, a few degrees and 3 companies practically on autopilot.... I'm fine spending more time enjoying the finer things in life, like highland thai, designer cheeses and craft beer.

I'm more worried about letting my health slide due to foodie indulgences than pot LOL

If I didn't PT like a fuckin' champion every day I'd weigh 400 lbs.

 

[Conager]

It's not a negative.

You say the government is forcing states to do standardized testing right?

I'm asking you to prove it.



Why is it so hard for people to just let others suffer the consequences of their own stupidity?



Yea it has adverse effects on short term memory in some cases, faster functioning however in pretty much all cases if you follow science and not propaganda. The scientist with all the coolest toys think that's why a disproportionately large percentage of humanities greatest thinkers, dreamers and artist are all potheads.

But seeing I was retired from necessary work at 31 with a pretty slick military career, a few degrees and 3 companies practically on autopilot.... I'm fine spending more time enjoying the finer things in life, like highland thai, designer cheeses and craft beer.

I'm more worried about letting my health slide due to foodie indulgences than pot LOL

If I didn't PT like a fuckin' champion every day I'd eventually need the full SlobDownSouth surgical package; gastric stapling and an abdominoplasty

FYP. Made it more better good.

 

[PrincepsCyberius]

So we're in 100% agreement, there was no federally mandated test, which is what the links you provided just backed me up on. IF a state wanted federal money each individual state had 100% control in making their own test.

No, we're not in agreement. Either your attempt at sophistry was so clumsy that you dropped the ball as you first touched it, or you are again displaying how uniformed you are on the process of federal mandates in situations where the federal government acts in areas where it has no clear Constitutional authority, such as education.

I suppose I should not blame you too harshly for your relative ignorance on these issues. I'm both a lawyer and a public school educator in real life, and so live with these matters on a daily basis. On the other hand, if you are going to comment on something the way you do, you should probably become better informed.

First, the federal government passes laws, such as IDEA, NSLP, and, of course, NCLB, which then lead to literally thousand of pages regulations (I have the relevant CFR volumes on my bookshelf) which mandate certain state actions including, in the case of NCLB, standardized tests. Meanwhile, the federal government mandates the citizens of the states to pay billions upon billions of dollars in taxes which, after a sizable percentage has been skimmed off to support the Washington bureaucracy, might be returned to the states to help partially pay for compliance with the mandatory federal regulations. If a state doesn't successfully comply with the federal mandate, then it doesn't get any of its money back to pay for the federal mandates that remain in place regardless.

Given that this system applies to standardized testing under NCLB, it takes an awfully desperate stretch of language to argue, as you do, that such testing isn't mandatory.

Look at it another way. Teachers, schools, and school districts continually gripe about the need to comply with all these federal regulations and requirements. If they are not mandates, then why do the still try to comply?

As someone who spends much of each week doing federally mandated paperwork when I'd rather be lesson planning or doing other things to enhance my students' educations, I can assure you, these are mandates.

* * *

As for your comment about "name calling," all I did was posit what could be expected "from a supposedly grown man who names himself after a comic book character?" If that constitutes "name calling," all I can do is note that you gave yourself that name.

Now, again, please get informed before commenting on topics, or just return to your comic books. The grown-ups are trying to have a meaningful discussion.

 

[PrincepsCyberius]

It's federal money, being given to states. States changed the standards of the test in order to reduce its quality and have a higher student proficiency rate, to avoid sanctions by the federal bill called no child left behind.

No, states are compliant to get their welfare, they don't have to do shit.

Texas can at any time tell the fed to go fuck itself and do their own thing, pay their own way.

But they want that gubbmint cheese just like everyone else, so they do their testing.

"Federal" money? I know what you mean, but that's not a productive way to look at it. That money comes from tax dollars. It is the people's money, money taxed from people who live in the states and school districts, then used to blackmail those states and school districts into complying with one-size-fits-all federal mandates. (Yes, I wrote "mandates," even if Sgt. Spidey doesn't like the word.)

Here's the thing that makes this all the worse, and it goes back to the original topic of this thread. Nowhere in the Constitution will you find the word "education." Meanwhile, the Tenth Amendment mandates:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.​

Put simply, the Constitution gives the federal government no regulatory power over education. Almost all of the federal activity we're debating here is, it appears, unconstitutional.

The federal government takes billions of dollars out of the states that the states could themselves more efficiently put into education, then uses those billions to blackmail the states into complying with laws and regulations of dubious constitutionality and questionable efficacy. Why are any of you defending these practices?

(Sgt.Spidey? Why are you?)

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

No, we're not in agreement. Either your attempt at sophistry was so clumsy that you dropped the ball as you first touched it, or you are again displaying how uniformed you are on the process of federal mandates in situations where the federal government acts in areas where it has no clear Constitutional authority, such as education.

I suppose I should not blame you too harshly for your relative ignorance on these issues. I'm both a lawyer and a public school educator in real life, and so live with these matters on a daily basis. On the other hand, if you are going to comment on something the way you do, you should probably become better informed.

First, the federal government passes laws, such as IDEA, NSLP, and, of course, NCLB, which then lead to literally thousand of pages regulations (I have the relevant CFR volumes on my bookshelf) which mandate certain state actions including, in the case of NCLB, standardized tests. Meanwhile, the federal government mandates the citizens of the states to pay billions upon billions of dollars in taxes which, after a sizable percentage has been skimmed off to support the Washington bureaucracy, might be returned to the states to help partially pay for compliance with the mandatory federal regulations. If a state doesn't successfully comply with the federal mandate, then it doesn't get any of its money back to pay for the federal mandates that remain in place regardless.

Given that this system applies to standardized testing under NCLB, it takes an awfully desperate stretch of language to argue, as you do, that such testing isn't mandatory.

Look at it another way. Teachers, schools, and school districts continually gripe about the need to comply with all these federal regulations and requirements. If they are not mandates, then why do the still try to comply?

As someone who spends much of each week doing federally mandated paperwork when I'd rather be lesson planning or doing other things to enhance my students' educations, I can assure you, these are mandates.

* * *

As for your comment about "name calling," all I did was posit what could be expected "from a supposedly grown man who names himself after a comic book character?" If that constitutes "name calling," all I can do is note that you gave yourself that name.

Now, again, please get informed before commenting on topics, or just return to your comic books. The grown-ups are trying to have a meaningful discussion.

So we're not in agreement and you're wrong, I'm ok with that too.

Your links and posts back me up on this, as you've said the Fed can't pass laws that tell states what to do. What the Fed does is pass laws on how the Fed will dish out their money. All the Fed can do is bribe the states, but that's not a mandate, it's the choice of the states.

 

[BotanyBoy]

"Federal" money? I know what you mean, but that's not a productive way to look at it. That money comes from tax dollars.
It is the people's money, money taxed from people who live in the states and school districts,

Wow really??

LOL.....I pay more in taxes than 90% of the country will earn this year, trust me I know where the fuck that money comes from.

then used to blackmail those states

Either you don't know what blackmail is or you don't know how that money is being used.

Put simply, the Constitution gives the federal government no regulatory power over education.

Article I, section 8

Almost all of the federal activity we're debating here is, it appears, unconstitutional.

I'm sorry, that's just incorrect.

Why are any of you defending these practices?

Where was I defending anything?

 

[EternalFantasy]

No child left behind is a federal initiative.

Standardized tests help evaluate each state's record to earn benefits from NCLB.

Poorly performing states, like Missouri, lower the quality of the test, so as to report better results and face no sanctions from NCLB.

Which becomes a joke.

I like Chartered and semi private better.

That's my argument.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

No child left behind is a federal initiative.

Standardized tests help evaluate each state's record to earn benefits from NCLB.

Poorly performing states, like Missouri, lower the quality of the test, so as to report better results and face no sanctions from NCLB.

Which becomes a joke.

I like Chartered and semi private better.

That's my argument.

You can't have both of those positions.

You can't complain that states could have made really easy tests under NCLB, AND like charter schools which have no tests at all.

You can't advocate accountability and at the same time advocate no accountability.

 

[Conager]

You can't have both of those positions.

You can't complain that states could have made really easy tests under NCLB, AND like charter schools which have no tests at all.

You can't advocate accountability and at the same time advocate no accountability.

Charter schools do not test their students?

 

[EternalFantasy]

You can't have both of those positions.

You can't complain that states could have made really easy tests under NCLB, AND like charter schools which have no tests at all.

You can't advocate accountability and at the same time advocate no accountability.

Seriously, aren't you a gym teacher?

Admit it.