Ask a MtF TG a question

[stickygirl]

Haurni, I must respectfully disagree that our dictionaries disagree
'An excessive and irrational devotion or commitment to a particular thing:'
and
1. an object regarded with awe as being the embodiment or habitation of a potent spirit or as having magical potency.
are saying pretty much the same thing. But yea, there's the vaguely religious fetishes aren't there? But that would fall under the obsessive interest thing...

Gotta dash...

I wasn't going to mention it, but my other definition of a fetish is something you wouldn't tell your gran ( unless she posts on Lit )

 

[Prince Albert]

StickyGirl, will you marry me???? Or at least give me a fun filled weekend fling????

 

[stickygirl]

StickyGirl, will you marry me???? Or at least give me a fun filled weekend fling????

Not both?
So where are we going for this weekend then? Could it be somewhere romantic - Venice maybe?

Also in my bucket would be
Vancouver ( to meet up with Jessica T )
or diving off Sorong
and the northern lights… Latvia or Finland. Isn't there an ice hotel?
or Angkor Wat
Berlin - I bet the night life is brilliant
would it be better to go somewhere hot? If you're meaning to fuck my brains out then a hot place might be too much: I think I'd want to have sex outside at some point but it could always be in the shade with some wafting palms and birdsong and one of those white cocktails *sigh*

Time's up PA... I knew you were only kidding anyhow

 

[mngramps]

You would have to try to locate her, for a start. If you go looking for "him" you'll never find your old friend.

What if he is still a he, and decided to never follow thru with his desires and/or needs? You may be right though... It gets so confusing for me sometimes. Oh well, so be it.

 

[stickygirl]

What if he is still a he, and decided to never follow thru with his desires and/or needs? You may be right though... It gets so confusing for me sometimes. Oh well, so be it.

It would depend on which pronouns your friend wanted you to use, but it might be that he/she/zhe knew that you and your wife might feel awkward saying "she" even though that's what she would have preferred.
Stella's right though: if she had moved town to start a new life as a trans woman then it's likely she will have changed her first name.
If ever you're not sure which pronouns to use then just ask. If you have any other questions about transgender matters then this is the place to ask them.

 

[Stella_Omega]

What if he is still a he, and decided to never follow thru with his desires and/or needs? You may be right though... It gets so confusing for me sometimes. Oh well, so be it.

I am pretty sure that transition was one big reason why she moved-- Canada was much more liberal than the USA was-- more liberal than many USA states are still.

By your definitions, my desire to have a penis is, totally, a fetish. I want to be able to turn around and return the favor after I get fucked. other then that, I don't know what difference it would make!

Well, that and writing my name in the snow.

 

[stickygirl]

I am pretty sure that transition was one big reason why she moved-- Canada was much more liberal than the USA was-- more liberal than many USA states are still.

By your definitions, my desire to have a penis is, totally, a fetish. I want to be able to turn around and return the favor after I get fucked. other then that, I don't know what difference it would make!

Well, that and writing my name in the snow.

Yet if you ID'd as a man then perhaps it wouldn't be a fetish, because the desire for one would be more holistic ( if that's the right word ).

Why can't we save as draft here because I'd like to come back to this...

 

[haurni]

Yet if you ID'd as a man then perhaps it wouldn't be a fetish, because the desire for one would be more holistic ( if that's the right word ).

'Fetish' is a word with a lot of nuances, most of them negative. It has different meanings to different people - lay people, folks into kink, psychiatrists. If you take a strictly cis- and heterosexist view, I'm sure that wanting to transition probably qualifies. I think it used to be a fetish in the technical sense, i.e. to a psychiatrist, though it no longer is.

As in one of the examples I gave (a fetish for high marks), a fetish can apply to anything we strongly desire and spend a lot of time thinking about - it's an obsession, really. Cars, money, fame, six-pack abs and trophy wives are fetishes for a lot of people. Some people want to look like Barbie confused. If someone is really serious about transitioning, I think it qualifies in this sense, and I would argue that, in such a case, 'giving in' to the 'fetish' might very well be the best thing to do from a mental health perspective.

The poster who wanted breasts but presumably wanted to remain a man might be considered a fetishist in the more technical sense, and I know there is another male poster on Lit who is an enthusiast of his own large breasts. If it's not part of a gender identity issue, is it a fetish by exclusion?

It's a matter of definition, I guess, and whose you're using. There's a difference between wanting to be a man with breasts and wanting to be a (trans)woman but I'm not going to dispute the 'validity' of the poster's desires.

I just enjoy a good argument.

 

[Prince Albert]

Not both?
So where are we going for this weekend then? Could it be somewhere romantic - Venice maybe?

Also in my bucket would be
Vancouver ( to meet up with Jessica T )
or diving off Sorong
and the northern lights… Latvia or Finland. Isn't there an ice hotel?
or Angkor Wat
Berlin - I bet the night life is brilliant
would it be better to go somewhere hot? If you're meaning to fuck my brains out then a hot place might be too much: I think I'd want to have sex outside at some point but it could always be in the shade with some wafting palms and birdsong and one of those white cocktails *sigh*

Time's up PA... I knew you were only kidding anyhow

Damn Girl you caught me!! well if a win a huge lottery maybe!!! Hope you are well sweetie!!

 

[stickygirl]

I think you nailed with the 'negative' associations because to the cis-masses ( new expression btw ) a fetish is a dirty little secret because ... that's how the media use the word. If someone wants to call my need to correct my assigned birth sex a fetish, I'm not going to lose sleep over it... they can it pink-alligator syndrome so long as can get
my
damned
pink
alligator

 

[haurni]

they can it pink-alligator syndrome so long as can get
my
damned
pink
alligator

I've never heard it called that before!

 

[stickygirl]

On "passing"

I've been exchanging some PMs, which a charming man on Lit and I noted his use of the term 'passing', asking him to take care as it can cause offense. He questioned that, because he had heard trans women using it at a convention he'd attended. I'm taking the liberty of posting my reply as I think it's really important to understand exactly why it can be offensive. This is an extract of my reply and I am indebted to Julia Serano for opening my eyes.


"I am a little surprised to hear that you heard the term from trans folk, but not entirely. There was a time when homosexuals considered themselves different from the rest of the society and coined the word ‘pride’ in celebration of their uniqueness. At that time the word heterosexual had not been used, because there had been no challenge to society’s certainty that same sex relationships were not normal.

Being abnormal, being homosexual, was regarded as immoral and unnatural, so how could they considered themselves as being marginalised when their sexuality was a choice? In modern countries today we regard homosexuality as being every bit as legitimate as heterosexuality and an individual’s sexuality is not something upon which they can be judged.

If you were to swap the words homosexual and heterosexual for transgender and cis-gender then you can see how, by using words such as ‘passing’ you are making judgements about gender in the same way as sexuality was used in the past. Why should a trans woman’s ability to present as cis-gender be something on which she is judged as either passing or failing?

Does that sound far-fetched? Then swap racism for homophobia, because there was a time when there were not blacks and whites, there were only niggers. Where we stand is just a moment in history and society’s understanding of transgenderism is not yet understood or accepted, but through people like yourself, who are prepared to listen and not be dismissive, the day when ‘passing’ is not required draws closer.

There is of course another, more pressing and more sinister implication in the word. To ‘pass’ is to stay safe. Our status of transgender is still heavily stigmatised and if we do not pass, our status is how people mark us out in a social context. If you were to meet me, you might take an interest in a young woman studying physics, because traditionally it has been a male preserve ( name a famous female physicist and most people can only manage Marie Curie ). If I didn’t pass, you might notice I was trans* and the significance of my studying physics would become secondary. You might even link the two and think my talent for science stemmed from my male vestiges: you wouldn’t be the first!

However, I’ve just had the pleasure of meeting a decent, enlightened man in a social setting. If I have to walk home, or use public transport and I do not pass as heterosexual, then a normal day can turn very sour indeed and as you know, it can be dangerous, even fatal.

So I am not entirely surprised that at a trans convention you heard the word used but whether or not the users realised it, they are using a term that reinforces that cis-sexism. Cis-gender women will use the term slut, as in ‘slut-shaming’ to insult another woman, but they are actually using a sexism term and tacitly condoning patriarchal standards."

As ever I'd welcome responses to my whittering

 

[haurni]

I think it's best to take the position that 'passing' is a word that only trans people really have the freedom to use (should they wish to), just as the N-word should only be used by black people, 'faggot' by gay men, 'slut' or 'cunt' by women (see Slutwalk or Inga Muscio, respectively), and perhaps 'queer' by non-heterosexuals. Those who are the targets of an offensive term understand where it comes from and what it means (both literally and in a social context, i.e. as hate speech) and only they have the option to try reclaiming it for themselves - nobody else gets to use it.

 

[LucyH]

I've never heard it called that before!

Me either, but I like it.

 

[LucyH]

I understand your concern that an attraction to trans people could be, and often is, regarded as fetish: if you were attracted to redheads or girls with long legs then no one would bat an eyelid. But if you express an attraction for trans women, it comes ready loaded with society's baggage and the obverse is true as well - if a guy hits on me knowing I am trans then I'm very wary.
But why does society see it as a fetish at all? If transexuality were fully accepted by society then the eyelids would remain unbatted. But that is wishing for the moon.

I'll second that.

Joe the uncomplicated heterosexual who likes cis-women an awful lot doesn't sit around agonizing about whether his attraction to people with a specific sort of gender expression and physical characteristics is a fetish. Nope. He's just a straight guy who likes women an awful lot.

And if Joe is only interested in women for sex, and doesn't really think of them as people, does that mean he has a cis-woman fetish? Or is he just shallow and self-centered?

 

[Prince Albert]

I'll second that.

Joe the uncomplicated heterosexual who likes cis-women an awful lot doesn't sit around agonizing about whether his attraction to people with a specific sort of gender expression and physical characteristics is a fetish. Nope. He's just a straight guy who likes women an awful lot.

And if Joe is only interested in women for sex, and doesn't really think of them as people, does that mean he has a cis-woman fetish? Or is he just shallow and self-centered?

The latter probably, if I read you correctly.

 

[LucyH]

The latter probably, if I read you correctly.

Pretty much. Or maybe it doesn't even have to be an "or" question.

 

[Dyslexicea]

I understand your concern that an attraction to trans people could be, and often is, regarded as fetish: if you were attracted to redheads or girls with long legs then no one would bat an eyelid. But if you express an attraction for trans women, it comes ready loaded with society's baggage and the obverse is true as well - if a guy hits on me knowing I am trans then I'm very wary.
But why does society see it as a fetish at all? If transexuality were fully accepted by society then the eyelids would remain unbatted. But that is wishing for the moon.

I'll second that.

Joe the uncomplicated heterosexual who likes cis-women an awful lot doesn't sit around agonizing about whether his attraction to people with a specific sort of gender expression and physical characteristics is a fetish. Nope. He's just a straight guy who likes women an awful lot.

And if Joe is only interested in women for sex, and doesn't really think of them as people, does that mean he has a cis-woman fetish? Or is he just shallow and self-centered?

I have a different take on this.

I'm emotionally attracted to other women because of that I'm also sexually attracted to other women. Just like everyone else, I'm more attracted to certain physical characteristics than other, just like I'm attracted to certain personality traits and not others.

When I was more promiscuous and had my fair share of casual sexual encounters it was still more important to me that we were mentally compatible. The physical attraction even if it was a perfect fit to those types of my desires rarely got me in bed. Even those times where I did let my lust over power my logic, there was never a second encounter if she didn't fit emotionally and mentally.

Where am I going with this, simple to say my belief is that if a man or woman is attracted to a pre-op transwoman because she's a woman, because he/she likes her personality it's certainly not a fetish but if his/her attraction is because she has a penis it's a fetish or worse.

Because of the society we live in, this makes a transwoman life doubly hard, if she reveals she's trans before she gets to know the person, she risks having a relationship with a person who has a fetish or worse, if she waits until after he/she becomes emotionally involved she risks being accused of lying and maybe even faces physical harm.

I might even ask if she's with a man who has this fetish, as I've defined, what happens to her relationship when she's post-op. Of course she could stay pre-op to satisfy his desire but what kind of relationship would that be?

 

[stickygirl]

You've lit the touchpaper to so many thoughts in my head I'm not sure where to start.

Where am I going with this, simple to say my belief is that if a man or woman is attracted to a pre-op transwoman because she's a woman, because he/she likes her personality it's certainly not a fetish but if his/her attraction is because she has a penis it's a fetish or worse.

I'd downgrade that to saying 'might be a fetish' I'll explain later.

Because of the society we live in, this makes a transwoman life doubly hard, if she reveals she's trans before she gets to know the person, she risks having a relationship with a person who has a fetish or worse, if she waits until after he/she becomes emotionally involved she risks being accused of lying and maybe even faces physical harm.

Doncha love double-standards? And it doesn't stop being a problem even after she's had surgery.

I might even ask if she's with a man who has this fetish, as I've defined, what happens to her relationship when she's post-op. Of course she could stay pre-op to satisfy his desire but what kind of relationship would that be?

Well a pretty unrealistic relationship but, yea, plenty trans women have been faced with that problem and are then accused of being selfish for pressing ahead with surgery. It's asking too much, to expect a man or a woman to stay with someone through their surgery and for the relationship to remain unaffected - unless it were a completely asexual one. You can't compartmentalise the sex life in a relationship because it's all part of its dynamic.


Who has the fetish?
I strongly suspect that teens get misled by porn. Take a teenage kid, who is confused about their gender but whose sexual timebomb just exploded with testosterone. They have permanent hard-on with no other fantasy to project themselves into but what is portrayed by the porn industry, so a minority aspire to become sexual objects. I'm not saying all trans kids are like that, but the majority, who just want to quietly transition, get tarred with the same brush. Those trans-'girls' develop a fetish about their own sexuality before they've had a chance to mature into a broader view of being a woman. I know because, to an extent I did that and I was influenced by porn. The phenomena is well known in the trans world, where more established trans women roll their eyes at the newbies flashing their tits and wearing hooker make-up.

Nor is it a surprise, when there is so little good media representation of trans women, that men come to think of us all as two-dimensional sex-objects. After all, if cis-women only appeared in porn videos, couldn't men be forgiven for believing they were all nymphomaniacs? I'm not laying the blame entirely with the porn industry, but surely they are part of the problem?

But not necessarily fetish
Oddly enough I recently found a video of one of Julia Serano's talks where she points out that that is nothing wrong with finding pre-op trans women attractive sexually, so long as the idea that she is a real person and has her own agenda is embraced as well. Without those key qualifications they are not a 'tranny chaser' or a fetishist but an asshole. I'd go along with that!

One final point is that we don't have a word for pre-op trans woman who do not feel a need for surgery. The "pre-op" descriptor suggests they are in a limbo and awaiting the next step, which is true for some, but not all.

Thanks for the questions Dys. I'm sorry if I take up so much page-space in replying but these are complex issues that demand a proper response and I've done my best to keep it brief!!

 

[Prince Albert]

Dyslexecia, very well said. Sticky a very good point also. (PS Sticky, I think you are a beautiful PERSON!!)

 

[stickygirl]

Dyslexecia, very well said. Sticky a very good point also. (PS Sticky, I think you are a beautiful PERSON!!)

I always listen to what Dys has to say.
There are lots of beautiful people but too often they hide themselves. You ought to open up some more Mr Cwazy Dwuck - I always appreciate your comments but I hardly know anything about you

 

[haurni]

I might even ask if she's with a man who has this fetish, as I've defined, what happens to her relationship when she's post-op. Of course she could stay pre-op to satisfy his desire but what kind of relationship would that be?

Well a pretty unrealistic relationship but, yea, plenty trans women have been faced with that problem and are then accused of being selfish for pressing ahead with surgery. It's asking too much, to expect a man or a woman to stay with someone through their surgery and for the relationship to remain unaffected - unless it were a completely asexual one. You can't compartmentalise the sex life in a relationship because it's all part of its dynamic.

There are men (or women) who are in a relationship with someone and then find that the person wants to transition. Some will stick with their partner, others will not. No doubt it's also possible that someone finds a partner who is preop trans and also drops them after they've had gender confirmation surgery. Does that make them a transfetishist?

Either way, the process of transitioning is going to put strains on the relationship, but for someone to insist that their partner not change in ways that are better for their mental well-being is simply to be selfish.

I'm emotionally attracted to other women because of that I'm also sexually attracted to other women. Just like everyone else, I'm more attracted to certain physical characteristics than other, just like I'm attracted to certain personality traits and not others.

When I was more promiscuous and had my fair share of casual sexual encounters it was still more important to me that we were mentally compatible. The physical attraction even if it was a perfect fit to those types of my desires rarely got me in bed. Even those times where I did let my lust over power my logic, there was never a second encounter if she didn't fit emotionally and mentally.

Where am I going with this, simple to say my belief is that if a man or woman is attracted to a pre-op transwoman because she's a woman, because he/she likes her personality it's certainly not a fetish but if his/her attraction is because she has a penis it's a fetish or worse.

Many people are attracted to others because of physical characteristics - short, tall, heavy, skinny, hairy, buff, blonde, big-breasted, small-breasted, whatever. Many people will also have sex with those who are their physical 'type' regardless of emotional or intellectual connection simply because they meet the 'minimum requirements'. Some people, I'm sure, will only have sex with those who match their physical preferences.

Having a fetish for X, Y or Z simply means you are very attracted to it and want to obtain it. It doesn't meant you can't have other interests (and if you have no other sexual interest apart from, say, leather boots then you have a problem). I think we are all preferentially (though not exclusively) attracted to certain types. What makes the difference is the emotional bond we form with our partners that sustains us through the changes life presents us. The man who is a 'chubby-chaser' may have a 'fetish' for large women, and if he drops his wife when she loses 100 kg, he's an asshole. If he stays with her because his feelings for her transcend his interest in a certain physical type that doesn't make him any less of a fetishist, it just means he isn't an asshole. His preference for large women probably doesn't change. Even in relationships where there are no 'fetishistic' attractions, people do change physically over time and such things can break a relationship.

Is the man who drops his girlfriend because she gains weight, gets older or changes her hair colour a fetishist or an asshole?

Which is the person who dates a man but drops him because he has a small penis, even if he uses it effectively to satisfy his partner?

Which is the person who drops a man with erectile dysfunction, even though he can continue to please his partner with dildoes, vibe, tongue or strap-on, but no longer has a penis that's sexually functional?

Are the aforementioned any different from the person (male or female) who dates a transwoman but drops her once she's post-op because she no longer has a penis?

I would consider that the phrase 'best of both worlds' used in reference to transwomen is offensive because it objectifies them and reduces them to their genitals (in the same or similar way to how cis women are sexually objectified, except that the latter aren't also denied their chosen gender but are having it affirmed, albeit in a negative manner) but I think that it's used by 'trans-fetishists' or 'men who like cock but aren't gay' because it allows them to simultaneously satisfy two interests that normally conflict. Does this make it a fetish or does it simply make it a stronger preference?

I would like to have sex with a transwoman or an intersex person simply for the experience. I am attracted to small women with small breasts and would enjoy that experience as well (most of my female partners have been the exact opposite). I would also like to have anal sex with another man. I'd like to have a threesome or foursome. I'd like to be a woman and have lesbian sex. On the other hand, I won't die if none of those ever happen. Does that make any one of those interests any more fetishistic than any other? The fact that I would like to have those experiences with other consenting adults doesn't mean that I have to treat those people as objects, and if I were to form a relationship with them, whether or not it would outlast any physical changes (gender confirmation surgery, weight gain, etc.) would depend on the strength of whatever emotional bond might develop between us and not on the presence or absence of particular physical characteristics (I would hope!).

I guess that what I'm wondering is whether 'trans-fetishism' may be just like any other type of physical preference that people have, and how you treat your partner if that particular parameter changes is what qualifies you as an asshole or not. What might make it more significant for trans people, aside from such things as the potential for transphobic violence, is the possibility that your partner is only with you because of certain physical characteristics - a possibility that everyone faces - added on top of the major stresses of the transition process itself and issues of self-esteem and self-image associated with gender dysphoria and so on. Not at all an easy thing to deal with.

(As always, SG, please correct me if I've said something particularly stupid or offensive. )

One final point is that we don't have a word for pre-op trans woman who do not feel a need for surgery. The "pre-op" descriptor suggests they are in a limbo and awaiting the next step, which is true for some, but not all.

Good point. Certainly there are those who choose not to, for a variety of reasons, even though they would rather do so.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I knew a bisexual woman who preferred women-- BECAUSE she didn't like the way men focussed on PIV and nothing else.

She married a man with a micro-penis. I've often thought of him, and that jackpot he fell into! LOL

 

[stickygirl]

Thanks Haurni

I think we're in danger of over-complicating the issue by splitting hairs over the acceptance or otherwise of trans-fetishism before, during or after a relationship.

It feels as though we're concentrating too much on the Lit scene and Craig-lists. Those are the places where the problem lies, because men advertise their interest in shemales and you can be pretty sure they are fetishists.

Let put it into a real social context: if a girl or guy sparks up a conversation with a girl ( who happens to be trans ) and they really start to click and make a date to meet up again yada yada, then they have a basis of a relationship. At some point when it seems right to her, she will need to explain her status and do it in such a way that she gives the other person an opportunity to exit without feeling bad ( or beating her up ). I see nothing wrong in that burden because it's part of the process of getting to know someone: it wouldn't be regarded as odd to say 'btw I'm Jewish, or I'm haemophiliac, or suffer black-outs' in case those might be things that make the other person uncomfortable or incompatible.

But our trans woman should be very careful in checking out her suitor before that point: how do they respond to questions about LGBT; what is their politics; even what music they listen to can gain insight into a person's character and disposition. Every cis-gender girl is likely to size up their suitor in the same way - we trans just slip in some extra questions. In doing so, disaster can be averted and, fingers-crossed, he isn't a wolf in lamb's clothing playing sweet to get into your knickers - it happens.

But going back to the fetish thing 'men who like cock but..' Yes. That's a fetish, plain and simple. By their own admission, they are focusing exclusively on the penis (with a woman-like body attached) and would be happy to get down to it in a gas-station restroom. Eeew. I've yet to read any of them write a fucking sonnet about it More's the point they shouldn't be posting in LGBT

I knew a bisexual woman who preferred women-- BECAUSE she didn't like the way men focussed on PIV and nothing else.

She married a man with a micro-penis. I've often thought of him, and that jackpot he fell into! LOL

I'm assuming you mean 'penis in vagina' not 'particle image velocimetry' cos I can get quite passionate about optics . I can totally relate to your bisexual friend, in fact that's exactly how I feel too. But there's always exceptions and they are usually exceptional people and worth hanging on to.

 

[stickygirl]

My thread, so I can ask questions too...
What is "baeddel" or in the context I just saw 'baeddel trans'?