other people's messes

All right, I know I may catch some flak for this one, but I wanted to put it out there.

How many of you dominants have had to really extend yourselves to "un-do" some seriously bad experiences issued by your submissives past dom(s)?

From a great deal of discussion with submissives and dominants alike, I have had this topic come up again and again, and would like feedback. Especiallly from submissives who have found themselves in submissive positions to irresponsible/irresponsive dominants.

As if the negotiations necessary to this lifestyle were not already difficult and complicated enough, the presence of baggage produced by inconsiderate and often abusive individuals has the ability to exacerbate an already complicated process.

Comments? Thoughts? Stories?

brokenhallelujah said:

All right, I know I may catch some flak for this one, but I wanted to put it out there.

How many of you dominants have had to really extend yourselves to "un-do" some seriously bad experiences issued by your submissives past dom(s)?

From a great deal of discussion with submissives and dominants alike, I have had this topic come up again and again, and would like feedback. Especiallly from submissives who have found themselves in submissive positions to irresponsible/irresponsive dominants.

As if the negotiations necessary to this lifestyle were not already difficult and complicated enough, the presence of baggage produced by inconsiderate and often abusive individuals has the ability to exacerbate an already complicated process.

Comments? Thoughts? Stories?

Click to expand...

YUP...*shows hand*
And how many have wanted to go JPB (Just Plain Beat) the damn Dom/me wannabe that created the damn mess to start with?

Re: Re: other people's messes

EKVITKAR said:

YUP...*shows hand*
And how many have wanted to go JPB (Just Plain Beat) the damn Dom/me wannabe that created the damn mess to start with?

Click to expand...

enough said...

So...

Good to know that I am not alone in this one. How do you guys, as dominants or submissives, productively engage with this past experiences/experiences of others?

How, if in the terribly and awkwardly difficuult position of a dominant dealing with an injured/abused subbie, do you handle and heal this person that you treasure and prize, with sensitivity, while still envoking the forcefulness of will and body appropriate to the power exchange?

I have found so little helpful writing or enlightened commentary on this subject.

And that concerns me on a whole different level.

Let's keep this going, ya'll, please. If only to vent the spleen, let's keep this going.

brokenhallelujah said:

So...

Good to know that I am not alone in this one. How do you guys, as dominants or submissives, productively engage with this past experiences/experiences of others?

How, if in the terribly and awkwardly difficuult position of a dominant dealing with an injured/abused subbie, do you handle and heal this person that you treasure and prize, with sensitivity, while still envoking the forcefulness of will and body appropriate to the power exchange?

I have found so little helpful writing or enlightened commentary on this subject.

And that concerns me on a whole different level.

Let's keep this going, ya'll, please. If only to vent the spleen, let's keep this going.

Click to expand...

I am a submissive, who was in an emotionally abusive marriage for over 23 years. It is not only Doms who do this, he was and still is totally vanilla.

I have been living with Master for 9 months now. He is taking me on a wonderful journey of discovery, not only sexual. He is encouraging me to be more outgoing, to try new things, building up my self-confidence. When I have nightmares sometimes, He holds me and makes me feel so safe.

I was never physically abused and all my scars are on the inside, and I usually hide them pretty well but I do have some triggers which will flash me back to the old life. Angry voices.....the smell of beer on someone's breath. Master does not drink so that isn't a problem most of the time. The angry voices flashed me back one day at the hospital, when a poor confused man attacked a couple of the nurses and there was a scuffle. Master is an ex security guard and even though He was ill and in pain at the time, ordered the guy back to his bed and told him to stay there if he knew what was good for him......it didn't take long for the hospital security to arrive but the nurses noticed my pale face and Master knew what had happened.......I was so glad to have Him sit me down and tell me it was all ok now.......

I trust Him implicitly. We love each other very much, I know He respects me and I have yet to use my safe word, but know that if I do it will be respected immediately. That has given me the confidence to go further than I thought I could.....

It would seem to me that in any relationship, bdsm or vanilla, or in any role, PYL or pyl, you're gonna have to deal with your partners 'demons'. Like if you were to go into a relationship with a PYL who's last sub cheated on him, or lied to him, or stole from him, or something like that. You'd have to deal with his/her demons. So cleaning up someone elses mess is not just a PYL thing.

graceanne said:

It would seem to me that in any relationship, bdsm or vanilla, or in any role, PYL or pyl, you're gonna have to deal with your partners 'demons'. Like if you were to go into a relationship with a PYL who's last sub cheated on him, or lied to him, or stole from him, or something like that. You'd have to deal with his/her demons. So cleaning up someone elses mess is not just a PYL thing.

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I agree. When you get to a certain age I think most people have some kind of baggage or war wounds. Some more than others admittedly, but I also think some people are professional victims though.

but I also think some people are professional victims though.

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ouch
the reason for that may be that it's very hard to spot an abuser (most of them hide it so well that even close friends/family have no idea) however once a person has been abused it is harder to hide this. it's not easy to get back enough confidence after you've been abused to deter would be abuser but most "victims" try desperately hard to break the cycle.
ok, I'm whining and I'm sure you intended no offence, it's just close to the nerve for me.

I've been following this thread with interest, being kinda messed up myself. it's comforting to know that Dom/mes don't just reject subs if they look like too much work to put right
xx

As mentioned above, this is not just a D/s or bdsm topic. When I met Sir, I had some baggage, the details of which I won't go into, from my former 18-year marriage, which was 100 percent vanilla. Most people can't hit their 40's without having had at least some experiences along the way which were less than all positive. It's just part of life.

Sir and I discussed these things a little bit as time went along, but most of all I just feel so enveloped in such a kinky, but completely safe, cocoon that the past has gradually faded away.

And Sir too had a little baggage as well which made him very slow to want to really commit his heart, and once again, although we did discuss it some here and there, we mainly have "let the light in" rather than try to "chase the darkness away", which of course is darn near impossible to do.

justina

The authors talked about BDSM play being phsycho-drama, and that pyl's could actualy work through abuse, pain, hurt, fear, etc in a scene. Almost recreate a negative experience, control it, and empower themselves into a positive new space.

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thankyou for that CutieMouse
i won't ever lose the physical scars but i believe there's hope for the some of the psychological scars. if you don't mind i'll be stealing that quote to answer someones question (also a survivor drawn to BDSM).
xx

Cutiemouse wrapped that up pretty neatly. This kind of thing is where most of my baggage comes from, finding and fixing people who were abused.

It takes a huge investment on the part of the Dom/me to gain the trust and to establish the communication necessary to pick apart and learn intimately all of the other persons psychological triggers and their history. The history of not only abuse but their responses to the abuse and how it affects their lives into adulthood.

To understand it is the start, overcoming the problems and ingrained defense mechanisms is another. Reprogramming normal, healthy psychological defenses and behaviours is exceedingly difficult and takes a lot of time.

It takes a lot out of you.

My opinion is a little different on all this. I believe it is NOT a dominant persons job to fix anyone. One thing i know is that no one can fix you but you. A dominant may offer you a safe place to regroup but can not repair anything, it has to come from you. Abuse is something that happens to all of us in life, dwelling on it is where the damage steps in.
Yes i have been abused both physically and mentally and i do believe it happened because i was submissive. Thinking that being a sub protects you from the big bad wolf is probably not the best thing anyone should be doing. You need to have your eyes wide opened all the time because the bad guys are seeking out people like you. From experience i know they will make you feel safe, think you are home and then strike, so dont think being sub protects you from anything...it actually makes you a target.
As for scening being a way to relive and control what happened in your past...you already lived it, why would you wanna do it again, and why during a scene where everything is elevated, emotionally and mentally as well as physically? A scene is not the place to be bringing up your issues from the past, it is a time to enjoy what is happening at the moment and i time for you to fulfill your dominants wants and needs.
Since i'm on a role i will continue to say being afraid is a normal physical reaction for anyone (self preservation instinct) who has been put in a position where they have been abused or hurt in any way. It is your body telling you to be on guard and nothing more. You shouldnt be trying to be unafraid, you should be learning to use the fear to better your judgement in the future.
I have learned to not dwell on what was, living in the past is not the thing to do. If you dont move forward you will wither away to nothing stuck in the past and no one will be able to FIX you then.
Don't waste time feeling bad about things in your past...spend the time making your future what you want it to be,and remember no one can heal you but you.

I don't think I'd consider getting involved in a relationship whilst I still need "fixing" because it is so hard on the other person. I've been avoiding it deliberately because I know I need to fix myself before I can be with anyone else (I'm not saying I don't accept help, some wonderful friends have helped me more than they will ever understand ) as Betticus said it takes a lot out of a PLY and I don't want to weigh anyone down that way. I'll always need a little extra patience but the rest is up to me.
{just my opinion and the way I'm approaching this...I could be wrong and I'm not trying to say what's best for other people}

I've made some friends but it's pretty lonely I'm hoping it'll be worth the wait!
xx

i posted this before i saw KC's reply. i agree with some, disagree with some. i guess everyone heals in different ways. i tried the "don't think abot it" aproach for 8 years and it did more harm than good. i'm a far stronger better person for going back into my past and actually working on the healing.

i didnt say dont think about it...i was trying to say, dont deny it and learn to accept it.

ah...apologies for misreading what you meant. i guess i'm just defensive, too many people tell you that "it's in the past so forget it". accepting what happened is the key, it took too many years for me to figure that one out.

i was trying to say, dont deny it and learn to accept it.

Click to expand...

wise words
xx

Kajira Callista said:

i didnt say dont think about it...i was trying to say, dont deny it and learn to accept it.

Click to expand...

I can't picture roleplaying a scene to repeat a past abuse or even exploring past issues during playtime. There is a time for it and that should be kept seperate.

Understand that sometimes the person doesn't deal with the abuse in an effective way and it needs to be brought out and dealt with, sometimes it takes another person who understands it to help. If you have someone who was molested from childhood and beaten and psychologically abused then they will have issues that need to be fixed. If you are already in a relationship with that person and these things start to come up and cause problems then you have to either bitch out and walk or step up and deal with them.

Not everyone deals with their own problems effectively, especially if they are impressed upon them from their childhood.

Kajira Callista said:

My opinion is a little different on all this. I believe it is NOT a dominant persons job to fix anyone. One thing i know is that no one can fix you but you. A dominant may offer you a safe place to regroup but can not repair anything, it has to come from you. :

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Nods.

Real fixes and real change can only come from within the person who makes them.

Not only is this true but there is a good reason that all fixes come from within the person making the change and not be dependant upon someone else....because if for some reason the relationship you are in ends badly, everything that is dependant upon that other person often dis-appears as well.

Often it is about 4 simple things...

1. Communication - Talking about things and mostly just listening.

2. Offer insights and Healthy Alternative choices so as to prevent a repeat of a cycle of destruction.

3. Be bigger than their hurt by providing paitent, understanding and sometimes discipline. (be a safety net so they can feel safe to try)

4. Help them to believe in themselves and the power they have within themselves. (a.k.a. help to build thier self-esteeme)


In short, listen...offer helpful suggestions....pick them up and dust them off when they fail...encourage them to try again....and try not to get in the way.

Although my definition of scene may differ here...not sure...I do think that scenes can be specifically designed for the purpose of helping to deal with some things. I say this because it is often in scenes we experience new places within ourselves, and feel it is also an opportunity if done correctly to help one find new places of power and peace within themselves they never knew existed.

Just my thoghts.

dolf said:

I don't think I'd consider getting involved in a relationship whilst I still need "fixing" because it is so hard on the other person. I've been avoiding it deliberately because I know I need to fix myself before I can be with anyone else (I'm not saying I don't accept help, some wonderful friends have helped me more than they will ever understand ) as Betticus said it takes a lot out of a PLY and I don't want to weigh anyone down that way. I'll always need a little extra patience but the rest is up to me.

Click to expand...

Something to consider...

If we all waited till we were fixed...none of us would be with anyone

Surely there are things you may want to work on before re-entering a relationship, which is good you are looking deeper and learning so that your next relationship will be better and more healthy than any you have had before.

Often the deepest bonds of love and care between two people come as they help each other to overcome things in their lives. If they are not the kind of person who can accept you as you are including your faults as they are now, then they are probably not going to be the type of person who can help you now or in the future when dealing with hard things of life. So do not let the fear of being a burden to someone prevent you from being open to find a person to be with. If its a burden they are willing to bear, then that speaks volumes about thier character, and also shows that they will be the kind of person who will not cut and run when something hard comes along and at the very least shows they care enough about you to try. Just be honest and upfront about these things so the other person can decide if it is something they can commit too.



Just something to consider...

Something to consider...

If we all waited till we were fixed...none of us would be with anyone

Surely there are things you may want to work on before re-entering a relationship, which is good you are looking deeper and learning so that your next relationship will be better and more healthy than any you have had before.

Often the deepest bonds of love and care between two people come as they help each other to overcome things in their lives. If they are not the kind of person who can accept you as you are including your faults as they are now, then they are probably not going to be the type of person who can help you now or in the future when dealing with hard things of life. So do not let the fear of being a burden to someone prevent you from being open to find a person to be with. If its a burden they are willing to bear, then that speaks volumes about thier character, and also shows that they will be the kind of person who will not cut and run when something hard comes along and at the very least shows they care enough about you to try. Just be honest and upfront about these things so the other person can decide if it is something they can commit too.



Just something to consider...

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i know..i'm just thinking of excuses not to get involved again coz it's sooooo scary...ty for the prod!

i mustn't hide in the comfort zone, i mustn't hide in the comfort zone, i mustn't hide in the comfort zone

xx

Kajira Callista said:

My opinion is a little different on all this. I believe it is NOT a dominant persons job to fix anyone. One thing i know is that no one can fix you but you. A dominant may offer you a safe place to regroup but can not repair anything, it has to come from you. Abuse is something that happens to all of us in life, dwelling on it is where the damage steps in.
Yes i have been abused both physically and mentally and i do believe it happened because i was submissive. Thinking that being a sub protects you from the big bad wolf is probably not the best thing anyone should be doing. You need to have your eyes wide opened all the time because the bad guys are seeking out people like you. From experience i know they will make you feel safe, think you are home and then strike, so dont think being sub protects you from anything...it actually makes you a target.
As for scening being a way to relive and control what happened in your past...you already lived it, why would you wanna do it again, and why during a scene where everything is elevated, emotionally and mentally as well as physically? A scene is not the place to be bringing up your issues from the past, it is a time to enjoy what is happening at the moment and i time for you to fulfill your dominants wants and needs.
Since i'm on a role i will continue to say being afraid is a normal physical reaction for anyone (self preservation instinct) who has been put in a position where they have been abused or hurt in any way. It is your body telling you to be on guard and nothing more. You shouldnt be trying to be unafraid, you should be learning to use the fear to better your judgement in the future.
I have learned to not dwell on what was, living in the past is not the thing to do. If you dont move forward you will wither away to nothing stuck in the past and no one will be able to FIX you then.
Don't waste time feeling bad about things in your past...spend the time making your future what you want it to be,and remember no one can heal you but you.

Click to expand...

You go girl. I also was abused as a child. I was also abandoned by several father figures. I agree with KC, that their's no point being bitter about what happened. What happened made me who I am. I've been able to be a great comfort to women who are in abusive relationship, because they know that I have been abused, and I understand. What matters is moving ahead, to seeing to your future. To do that you need to know WHERE you want to go.

If you keep doing things like you've always done, then you'll always be where you've always been.

I'm not talking about nit picky goals, I'm talkign in general. When i was 16 I sat down, and decided that I wanted to get married and have kids. So on that premises, I knew that I didn't want to date anyone that was lazy, or wouldn't make a good parent. That narrowed out a lot of guys. Then I knew that for my marriage to work, that we had to have lifestyle things in common. So I made more rules on that. 1) He had to be the same religion, and be active in his curch 2) he had to agree with me on childrearing. Ok, so this is just me. I also knew that he had to have similar goals. But for the rest of you ask yourself questions like :

Where do I want be? What do I want to do? What are the IMPORTANT things I need in a future mate?

And then don't let yourself stray! Force yourself to make rules, and then stick by them, or you'll stay where you are forever.
Ok, done with my lecture.

I don't think this is really related solely to BDSM. I have been in a number of relationships where I have had to deal with issues resulting from the behaivour of previous partners, or parents or friends...

Life is like that. No one is perfect, and the process of living life generates issues and baggage.

The implication here is that the dominant is the one who has to deal with issues in submissives. In fact, two of my submissive friends have had to struggle with issues in their dominant partners lives. It cuts both ways.

Truly, there's not a person on this earth who hasn't had bad & damaging experiences at the hands of others during their lives.

I think there are two ways of looking at it. Serial victims will always drag it around behind them, inflicting it on others, blaming their renewed victimisation on their deep & abiding scars. They will dwell on it, talk about how hard they try to fix it, how their personalities & kinks were caused by it, blaming it for avoiding relationships or for destroying relationships. We've all met people like this & not just in the B&D world but everywhere. First you want to help them, you listen, you sympathise, you offer practical advice & support. You do your best to wash the scars away. Then you start to realise that they love their scars. It gets them attention & caring, for a while, but eventually it is tedious & annoying. Serial victims love their role & will repeat it ad nauseum.

The other way is to accept your life, warts & all & just get on with it. Be honest with your partners about your life & what makes you tic, be it something that turns you on or something that makes you cringe. Yes, something in your past has caused that reaction, but really, does it matter now? Accept that in a relationship there are 2 different sets of scars & experiences & at some point they may collide & cause a problem, so then you find a solution. Accepters, sub or otherwise, will take responsibility for their own feelings & actions & try not to burden their partners with their unchangeable past.