When is forgiveness devine????

some may say that to forgive someone is the most loving act to bestow upon a person, but what if that person has done something so horrible that to forgive them makes you ill? Can one truly forgive or is that just another way of saying drop it or I will drop youlike a bad habit?

TwistaFate said:

some may say that to forgive someone is the most loving act to bestow upon a person, but what if that person has done something so horrible that to forgive them makes you ill? Can one truly forgive or is that just another way of saying drop it or I will drop youlike a bad habit?

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If one forgives in dishonesty it means less than nothing...if one forgives out of obligation to the relationship it means less than nothing. If in forgiveness one feels a loss of their own self respect it means less than nothing.
If one forgives because they truly understand the disgression or believe in the forgiven it can be a stepping stone to growth in a relationship.
There is no right or wrong answer.

I do agree

In accordance to what you said, yes it is very true, but when some people say I forgive you, it is as empty as the exxon valdez after hitting land, I mean really, if you don't mean, then don't say it, because those that you say it to, if they choose to beleive you will only be hurt more when it finally comes to light

Re: I do agree

TwistaFate said:

In accordance to what you said, yes it is very true, but when some people say I forgive you, it is as empty as the exxon valdez after hitting land, I mean really, if you don't mean, then don't say it, because those that you say it to, if they choose to beleive you will only be hurt more when it finally comes to light

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Empty words are often shut up words...go away words..and yes they are destructive to the one hearing them if they are believed and have them come back to bite their ass at a later date. Sometimes people say I forgive you just to put space between their own pain at the hurt they were caused. Unable to really emotionally handle the situation or a conversation about it.
There are many reasons *I forgive you* can be said..and many things it can mean.

Forgivenes, what is it good for?

TwistaFate wrote:

some may say that to forgive someone is the most loving act

I think true forgiveness benefits the forgiver far more than the forgivee. And the more we can forgive others, the more we can forgive ourselves. Sometimes the unforgiven one may need to forgive the unforgiver for not forgiving (whew, try saying that fast

Can one truly forgive

I think so. But it doesn't necessarily require the involvement of another person. Say someone who has wronged you has returned to non-physical (or died--however you like to think of it). Now you are stuck alone with the ache and pain of feelings resulting from the wronging act. Who suffers more from the lack of forgiveness in this case?

or is that just another way of saying drop it or I will drop you like a bad habit?

This sounds more like let's forget about it and move on, which is not necessarily true forgiveness.

There is also the I-forgive-you-and-I'm-not-going-to-fall-for-that-again sort of forgiveness. For example, say you have a friend who is chronically late. You may forgive them to your heart's content. And the next time they want to meet you on the corner at 5 before a social engagement, you say how 'bout we meet at the party instead.

xx,

Forgiveness without change or introspect is empty.

Thinking back on the times that I have forgiven or sought forgivenss, I would have to say that the act of forgiving was empty and useless without understanding and a goal amd perhaps plan, to do avoid the same thing from happening again.

Then, forgiveness includes trust, faith and personal growth.

I know how to forgive, but I never forget. Most of the time I drop the offending person like a bad habit. I prefer clean breaks. Others may feel differently.

If it is a beloved family member, I can forgive a lot easier.

TwistaFate said:

some may say that to forgive someone is the most loving act to bestow upon a person, but what if that person has done something so horrible that to forgive them makes you ill? Can one truly forgive or is that just another way of saying drop it or I will drop youlike a bad habit?

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Well...i say that forgiveness is just an option...NOT an absolute. Those who use those words should be sure that they are truly able to forgive, forget and move along. For me, I forgive unless the crime was so disrespectful that i have no further words for the person. In my humble opinion though, forgiveness makes You the better person for allowing the other person to be human.
AS always
PET

I'll never forgive the people who have hurt me. Never. Mostly, because I never mattered to them anyways, so why should I forgive them? I hope they get AIDS and die.

I forgive fairly easily, especially small things, but I rarely forget. If I see the behavior as a trend, I generally put a fair amount of distance in the relationship and do not offer forgiveness at that point.

I can forgive anyone of anything for the most part but will never forget..... and will possible never trust them again depending on the severity of the betrayal. For me i forgive them because its less bagage for me to carry around and frankly there is enough in my life without carrying grudges so i forgive more often than not. I also think that i am a better person because of my ability to forgive others. They are forgiven and I may never trust them again but i am like an elephant and will never forget. Hurt me once shame on you, hurt me twice shame on me.

Some things I can forgive easily, some with trouble, some I never do. It depends on the offense and my history with the person. Generally I want to look forward.

Johnny Mayberry said:

I'll never forgive the people who have hurt me. Never. Mostly, because I never mattered to them anyways, so why should I forgive them? I hope they get AIDS and die.

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If you never mattered to them, you might as well just let the whole thing go. Put it in your past - you don't have to forgive them, but neither do you have to hold a grudge.

As for hoping they "get AIDS and die" - what kind of a statement is that? For one thing, why AIDS? Why not run over by a truck? Is there a homophobic undertext to this particular type of fate you've chosen? And besides, people don't just die of AIDS anymore - this isn't 1985 San Francisco or modern-day Africa. Thousands of people (well, Americans) are living with HIV and AIDS and doing just fine.

Etoile said:

If you never mattered to them, you might as well just let the whole thing go. Put it in your past - you don't have to forgive them, but neither do you have to hold a grudge.

As for hoping they "get AIDS and die" - what kind of a statement is that? For one thing, why AIDS? Why not run over by a truck? Is there a homophobic undertext to this particular type of fate you've chosen? And besides, people don't just die of AIDS anymore - this isn't 1985 San Francisco or modern-day Africa. Thousands of people (well, Americans) are living with HIV and AIDS and doing just fine.

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I'm a very sweet, sensitive person by nature...I have to hold a grudge, in order to protect myself from future pain.


AIDS, because leprosy isn't as common. I don't associate AIDS with gay people.

TwistaFate said:

some may say that to forgive someone is the most loving act to bestow upon a person, but what if that person has done something so horrible that to forgive them makes you ill? Can one truly forgive or is that just another way of saying drop it or I will drop youlike a bad habit?

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In my opinion, if you cannot honestly look at that person and forgive them wholeheartedly, you do both of you a disservice. To tell a person you forgive them while harboring ill feelings is hollow, empty, and meaningless.

Can one truly forgive? Certainly. Different people are different. Some forgive easily. Others never forgive. Most fall inbetween. Myself, I can easily forgive the small things, if the person seeks forgiveness. I have found I can even forgive the bigger issues - with time. Things I thought I'd never forgive people for back in my 20s seem very inconsequential now that I've reached my 40s. I suspect things that seem huge now, will seem very small when I've reached my 60s. In that, I really do love how life works.

[rant]And why should you ever forgive betrayal? Why should you forgive someone for using you mercilessly, hurting you intentionally, and then tossing you aside when your usefulness ended? Fuck that, it takes all my force of will not to seek bloody revenge![/rant]

Johnny Mayberry said:

[rant]And why should you ever forgive betrayal? Why should you forgive someone for using you mercilessly, hurting you intentionally, and then tossing you aside when your usefulness ended? Fuck that, it takes all my force of will not to seek bloody revenge![/rant]

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I'm with you, Johnny. I do not seek revenge because it is beneath Me. But I do not give anyone a second chance to fuck Me over.

Ebonyfire said:

I'm with you, Johnny. I do not seek revenge because it is beneath Me. But I do not give anyone a second chance to fuck Me over.

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Exactly...and while it may be nice to talk about forgiveness, it seems like far too many people live in some sort of fantasy land where everything is ok, everything is forgiven, and no hurt lasts.

Johnny Mayberry said:

[rant]And why should you ever forgive betrayal? Why should you forgive someone for using you mercilessly, hurting you intentionally, and then tossing you aside when your usefulness ended? Fuck that, it takes all my force of will not to seek bloody revenge![/rant]

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Why? Because ultimately it takes more energy to fuel that anger than to simply let it go.

Example: I dated a man for almost 8 years. He called me up on a Thursday evening and told me he didn't think it would be a good idea for me to call him anymore or for me to go over to his condo. I asked him why. He said he had met some one else. Okay, felt a bit sick to my stomach and then he lowered the boom. She was moving in with him the next day. I went into a complete state of shock and ended up jumping into a relationship that turned out to be the most disastrous I'd ever been involved in. I hated and dispised this man. He did eventually ask me to forgive him. (After his "lady love" told him 6 months into the relationship that the sight of him naked made her physically ill.) I told him I couldn't forgive him. I couldn't then. I couldn't for a long time.

And now? 14 years later? While what he did hurt me more than any other man I've ever known, I can sincerely hope that he has found happiness in this world. If he were to contact me tonight and want to get together for coffee or drinks, I would meet him - gladly.

Would I get involved with him? Hell no. Would I trust him? Hell no. Do I wish him ill? No, I do not. Why? Because after 14 years, because after taking the time to heal myself, because after taking charge of my own life, because after finding some one who does bring me happiness, it it simply not worth my time, effort, or energy to continue that hate. After 14 years I've found I've let it go. Karma came to him. And came hard. I could go expending the effort and energy to "not forgive" (which, for me, means to continue to hate), but I have better things to do in my life - like living it.

Besides, this man has not been a part of my life for 14 years. Why bother one way or the other with it now? It's simply easier to get on with my life and hope his turns out the best it can possibly be. In that way, I believe it is easier to try (if one can) to get to a point where one can forgive honestly.

That's nice...and if that works for you, then I am glad. For me, however, there is no forgiveness in me. Not for some things. Some thinks I forgive in a heartbeat.

Re: Re: When is forgiveness devine????

SexyChele said:

In my opinion, if you cannot honestly look at that person and forgive them wholeheartedly, you do both of you a disservice.

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Yes chele, you are entitled to your opinion. I have to disagree. You do not have to forgive. You do yourself a disservice if you hate. Hatred is not good. Indifference works for Me. But forgiveness? No thanks. I am not Jesus Christ.

Re: Re: When is forgiveness devine????

SexyChele said:

In my opinion, if you cannot honestly look at that person and forgive them wholeheartedly, you do both of you a disservice.

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Yes chele, you are entitled to your opinion. I have to disagree. You do not have to forgive. You do yourself a disservice if you hate. Hatred is not good. Indifference works for Me. But forgiveness? No thanks. I am not Jesus Christ.

Oops

Sorry for the double post. I hit the reply key twice it seems.

Johnny Mayberry said:

That's nice...and if that works for you, then I am glad. For me, however, there is no forgiveness in me. Not for some things. Some thinks I forgive in a heartbeat.

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Things that are malicious in nature I will not forgive.

Things that show our humaness and tendency to fuck up and be remorseful once in a while, I forgive.