Is it really safe, sane, and consensual?

if you are hiding your kink from your married partner?

Consensual means to me that all parties agree. I feel for women who look outside the marriage, but if it is cloak and dagger stuff why not just get divorced?

interesting topic, WD. i don't have anything to add myself, not being married or at all willing to get into a relationship with someone other than a dom, but i didn't want it to get bumped down overnight, so i'm bumping it back up.

I agree- unless of course the partner DOES consent. When I first began in bdsm, I was living with a wonderful man with terminal cancer who consented to my explorations and occasional dates, and I was always up front with whoever I played with about the situation as well.

My SO did not want to know the details about my experiences...but gave a general consent and knew when I was meeting someone. I do not think I could have done it otherwise.

I always struggle with this same issue in that a big part of BDSM and marriage alike is trust. If one partner of a marriage is not totally honest with their SO, how does that bode for honesty in the long term relationship albeit lifestyle or vanilla? One of the things I remember my mother speaking of which throughout life I have found rang true is if you build a relationship on another's unhappiness, it is doomed from the start.

This is not meant as a superstitious thing but more along the lines of the honesty factor becoming a problem in subsequent relationships, as well as the fact if you are unhappy in your marrriage it is wiser to leave that one, process the changes and the reasons you weren't happy, then move on to finding someone who can compliment your needs without the negative stored baggage you try to bury in a new relationship. It is necessary to deal with your problems realistically before trying to make a successful relationship.

Is also partly if a person is ready to leave a partner for another, the precedent is set to make it an easy option the next time things do not go exactly as planned. Instead of dealing with the problems and making decisions you just move on and unfairly while you have someone to console you, the one you leave is still trying to deal with the shock of the ending of the relationship without the added opportunity to find someone to bed there for them when the crunch happens and help them through it.

I also wonder how it works for those who maintain a vanilla marriage and also a BDSM relationship outside that marriage, especially for a submissive. Jealousy aside, who takes precedence when the orders of a Master clash with the needs of a spouse. If it is the spouse, is that realistic in the BDSM distinction of D/s, and if the dominant, is that fair and likely to be tolerated forever by the spouse?

Though I anticipate many will not agree or understand what I am trying to say, for me it is about boundaries. My professional background does not help either as it is a mainstay I have had to deal with daily. While boundaries differ and sometimes can be grey areas, overall in the relationship stakes it is never a positive or long term solution to drift along and hope it all works out in the end. Is a matter of biting the bit and facing up to and dealing with the responsibilities you committed to initially as in a marriage, so you can successfully and with a clear conscience move into the responsibility of the BDSM relationship.

And to make it more difficult, if you find a lifestyle partner willing to accept you are not being 100% honest with your spouse, what does that say about the honesty you can expect from them? Master has said it was one of his main limits in selecting partners before we found each other. He would not play with, or be involved in a relationship with a married sub as he saw it as a betrayal of trust, a lack of honesty and commitment to their primary relationship and therefore not a person he felt comfortable with.

Catalina

To be honest, I did tell him, hence the divorce. I didnt go outside of the marriage without his knowledge. I've never been with another man without first breaking it off with the one I was with.

But in hindsight, maybe it would have been better to have been married in the vanilla way and took the play to the side and hidden it.

That way you have at least the security of the marriage.

I don't think that a lie to keep say 80% of one's life normal and status quo while fulfilling an unfulfilled *need* immediately means this person can't be trusted. Maybe they can be trusted completely.

You know, I lied once to one person, does this mean I'm going to lie to everyone else? I cheated on a partner because he refused to have the dialogue, even, that would have allowed me to be open. I guess I can't be trusted by anyone in the scene now.

I'll hold off with my stones. I respect the position of someone in this rather awful position. Having been there myself, having tried everything, I won't presume to know what's "right" for other people.

Jesus, people cheat for no fucking reason whatsoever compared to this issue, I'm amazed at the condemnation it always draws out. Till I know the rationale, the specifics, and the people involved, I reserve judgments.

As usual this is a topical subject which tends to make some jump to conclusions that are not 100% correct. One thing I did not mention in my previous post was I think it is not a gender issue as in the stated case of a married woman being less than open, but believe the same applies if it is a male. And just to be fair, yes, I too cheated once in my first marriage though not because I was dissatisfied and planning to move into another relationship, and I did end the marriage at that point and sorted out my life alone before involving anyone else. And no, I am not judging others as every circumstance is different, just as is the way each individual handles their unique situation, and copes with the intricacies of human emotions.

What I was doing was responding in a manner of generalising the issue as to me this was as it was presented, and the bottom line in my experience is to deal with any relationship of any significance by deceiving the SO is recipe for disaster and not completely fair if the circumstances are just that one has decided they do not love the other anymore. And unfortunately, in dealing professionally with relationship difficulties, statistically the majority who follow this path not only increase their problems and those of the people involved, but in most cases if they succeed in their deception, over time they rationalise repeating the behaviour next time things are not perfect.

Life is complicated enough without making it more so and making others pay for our choices. And I do always struggle with the issue of trust and honesty within the BDSM relationship being something I could count on if I became involved with someone who was deceiving their vanilla partner. In my experience with meeting several dominants, it was the single thing I repeatedly found was a no go area in their eyes for the exact reason they felt it was an indication of the level of trust they could expect to share with that person.

There can be extenuating circumstances, but dissatisfaction with a bad marriage is just that and needs to be dealt with openly and honestly, and the question posed in the thread was not dealing with open relationships, or a situation where one had discussed their issues and plans with the SO, and IMHO this is not a situation which justifies deception. The thread was talking about consensual and who that should apply to in these situations.

After all, if you are married and unhappy for whatever reason, finding yourself a D or sub is not going to fix the initial problem, is going to fuck with peoples emotions. The solution? Make a decision...if you are unhappy and it is not going to change, give yourself and your SO the chance to find happiness by moving on honestly and openly. At least you can focus your energy on finding what you need instead of directing it into how to successfully manipulate the situation to minimise discovery.

Catalina

So if some guy is unhappy and a once a week session with his friendly non-fucking-and-sucking professional Dominant of choice is going to keep him on an even keel, he should instead talk to his wife, who he knows is going to be profoundly disturbed and scared by the subject matter at hand and very likely reject him in more ways?

There are definitely blanket "shoulds" in the world. You should be honest. You should be able to talk openly about your desires and needs, and you should be able to compromise within a marraige so that both parties are happy. You should respect your partner's sexuality, you should respect your own sexuality, you should move on if you are deeply dissatisfied. The logistics of these are not so clear, the extenuating circumstances are as varied as human beings themselves. I don't think you can talk about such things in generalities, we all know, hopefully, what we *should* be doing.

Kind of like "SSC SSC SSC."

Well...yes...

and then it's very subjective from there.

Netzach said:

So if some guy is unhappy and a once a week session with his friendly non-fucking-and-sucking professional Dominant of choice is going to keep him on an even keel, he should instead talk to his wife, who he knows is going to be profoundly disturbed and scared by the subject matter at hand and very likely reject him in more ways?

There are definitely blanket "shoulds" in the world. You should be honest. You should be able to talk openly about your desires and needs, and you should be able to compromise within a marraige so that both parties are happy. You should respect your partner's sexuality, you should respect your own sexuality, you should move on if you are deeply dissatisfied. The logistics of these are not so clear, the extenuating circumstances are as varied as human beings themselves. I don't think you can talk about such things in generalities, we all know, hopefully, what we *should* be doing.

Kind of like "SSC SSC SSC."

Well...yes...

and then it's very subjective from there.

Click to expand...

This is stated VERY well!!! I couldn't have said it better, so I'll leave it at this.......

~ Cait

The above statements are true and I agree in part, but I also like to continually try to not only evolve and learn from past efforts, but I try and minimise my actions hurting those who can directly suffer from my actions. Admittedly, I often fail, but I try and I struggle daily with the ethics I adopt and try to live by. Everyone makes these choices each day according to what is right for them, and what is possible. One of the statements I remember from a feminist lecturer I knew was, "the word 'should' is too easy to ignore, while the choice to use 'could' will more often enable the positive act of change and empowerment."

Perhaps another way to look at the issue is how would you feel if you were the partner who may find out through whatever means your partner is involved with someone outside your relationship and without your prior knowledge and consent. I am sure there are few who could say they would not be affected, would not feel betrayed, would not be hurt. Of course for many years women were taught to pretend not to know and stand by their man, but to me that is inviting abuse and way outdated an approach.

Catalina

I'm not throwing any stones either. I've lived in that situation and you don't know what you will or won't do until you live it. I will, however, say that it played a part in my decision to end the marriage.

Technically, no.

My husband and I have talked in depth about D/s. For a variety of reasons it will never work for us. We may or may not break up one day, I don't know, but I am not going to leave him solely because of this.

I totally get how it is a problem for people if I am dishonest in my primary relationship with my husband. I also know that most Doms don't want to bother with a sub who can be only part time at best.

It's frustrating, but I have made my choices.

Netzach said:

So if some guy is unhappy and a once a week session with his friendly non-fucking-and-sucking professional Dominant of choice is going to keep him on an even keel, he should instead talk to his wife, who he knows is going to be profoundly disturbed and scared by the subject matter at hand and very likely reject him in more ways?

Click to expand...

To me you've answered your own question. If this is something that is going to make her go apeshit, then clearly she has a large emotional committment in it. If you really care for your partner, then you tell them.

WriterDom said:

if you are hiding your kink from your married partner?

Consensual means to me that all parties agree. I feel for women who look outside the marriage, but if it is cloak and dagger stuff why not just get divorced?

Click to expand...

Don't blame just the women. 2 out of 5 male subs who contact Me are married men. Not only do I say no, I say hell no!

Just noticed the thread. I think issues of 'cheating' are important ones, and there are even more grays that N suggests: not just that the married one goes to the domme once a week for NEBF stuff. (No exchange of bodily fluids). How about the wife is aware of the husband's kinks--he's told her-- and lets them alone.
He does not say what's being done about them.

Many partners to 'cheating' persons, half-know, or quasi-know, or suspect, due to perhaps deliberate hints. They choose to leave it that way.

BUT, what the hell do all these topics have to do with SSC? Surely no proponent of it, outside this thread, and Eb's empire, has said that not just your SM partner must consent, but your mom, pop, the preacher, your spouse, your kids, and the fellow at the corner store? SSC is designed to keep people who abuse bodies, out of jails and hospitals; it's not a magic recipe --in and of itself--for relationships. Good relationships have many OTHER requirements; some degree of honesty--see above-- as well as 'look the other way' being one of them.

J

Pure,

Can agree in part but to me the bottom line is trust and honesty. For me and most they are the ethics byu which you live your life. If you break them in the marriage, what does that say about the liklihood you will suddenly discover an affinity with honesty in a BDSM relationship? Both relationships are similar in they are a bond between people based on trust. There can be extenuating circumstances, and people can make a mistake, but my take on the initial question was it was directed more at those people who deceive their spouse on a regular and repeated basis. IMHO that is a character trait that is part of that person whether dealing with a marriage, lifestyle relationship, or the person they are trying to sell their unroadworthy vehicle to.

Catalina

I'm with Pure, SSC is basically to say that we don't kill each other and hospitalize each other and disregard that, not that we are better about extramarital affairs than any other population out there and we won't "steal" spouses.

I come out of the GLBT community and that was my perspective before getting into SM. Married closeted people are generally more accepted as a fact of life. It's assumed that some people cheat callously, and some people cheat because it's the best they can come up with and they agonize over it. I really hate when someone's said "I'm at my wits end, I've done everything I can think of, and I still love my wife" and people go "oh, talk to her, she'll understand" Nobody has the respect to take a person's position at face value?

Discretion is respected, more so as is someone's personal choice. You can choose not to have sex with that person if it's problematic for you. Simple enough.

I'm really glad I encountered some support when I was partnered but looking and very confused. I did get the best advice I ever got: "you only live one life, this is it, don't forget that."

Ultimately, that made me true to me, even when I wasn't true to my partner, and ultimately it let me see why that relationship needed to end *when I was ready for that message*

I'm really glad I didn't encounter a bunch of people telling me I was untrustworthy because I was still in my relationship and my partner, while aware, was not OK with things and not going to compromise on the issue with me.

My experience in the GLBT community was straight married folk wishing to experiment were not overly valued, and often exploited, for the same reason, trust. If your relationship has an area that causes you that much discomfort and dissatisfaction you need to go elsewhere to explore, it is not going to improve and magically fix itself by going behind your partner's back and getting your fix. Nine times out of ten they too are not satisfied so in all fairness either you move on, or you be open and give them equal opportunity to either find their jollies elsewhere or tell you where to go and end it themselves.

It is not only the issue of betrayal of trust of the original partner in an emotional sense, but in this time is a health concern. You can say, 'well of course I would use protection', but as most sexual health educators will tell you, the only protection is no sex which is why it is referred to as 'safer sex', not safe sex. Take into the equation also that though we are aware of HIV/AIDS now, there was a time we weren't. There is no law saying this can't happen again with another new STD and in what way it may be transmitted between people involved. For this reason alone, the marriage partner deserves the respect of being informed before they are possibly exposed without a choice.

If we choose to take the risk that is our right, it is not however the right of anyone to expose another and then say later, 'sorry, I didn't know....I never would have exposed you if I had.' It may be too late for any apology. Commitment is commitment, whether you are vanilla, queer, lifestyle, or Martian, and with that comes trust and respect.

Catalina

It is a very hard and difficult thing to go to your partner and tell them that you are into BDSM in any form, to have to speak openly about your sexual preferences, while being sure that they are not shared by your partner. I do not think there can be a discussion about the fact that you need to be honest with your SO. I mean what kind of relationship can you have if you are living a lie, if you get up every morning thinking I hope I will not slip and give myself away? How many persons can keep this up, not many.

In the end most of the relationships where cheating happens eventually break up. And I am not talking here about the drunken wife or husband who on a bachelors/shower party does something they rather wish they had not done. I am also not talking here about open relationships where both partners are aware of what the other is doing and is perfectly happy with it. No we are talking here about continuos cheating with one or several different partners. Those relationships are doomed to end and most of those end very badly.

Talking about the dominant standpoint I would never get involved with anyone still being married or in a relationship if they had not talked about it openly with their SO. They need to know, if only because I expect my slave to be mine.

There is also the other side, if you do not have an abusive partner, one that is prone to violence, then they have the fullest right to know what the other side is doing, if only just out of pure common courtesy. If it is not possible, if you are too afraid to tell the truth, then you should definitely end the relationship.

Francisco.

Maybe this Tuscarora proverb explains it more simply;

'Those who have one foot in the canoe and one foot in the boat are going to fall into the river.'

Catalina

WriterDom said:

if you are hiding your kink from your married partner?

Consensual means to me that all parties agree. I feel for women who look outside the marriage, but if it is cloak and dagger stuff why not just get divorced?

Click to expand...

why not get divorced? perhaps because the woman doesn't want to. perhaps she still loves her partner. *shrug* but has needs he does not meet. perhaps she is no longer in love with her partner, but loves him enough to "protect" him from hurt.

hence the "cloak and dagger stuff"

thank you WD for "feeling" for those of us who look outside our marriage to be whole.

... i will be totally and brutally honest here... i have NO trouble sleeping at night or looking at myself in a mirror. nor do i believe i am going to hell in a handbasket....the reasons for a woman OR MAN to step outside a marriage are many. i have what is to me, a damn good valid reason, and i can live with it. with no apologies. to anyone. nor will i ever pass judgement on anyone else who does the same, man or woman.

Re: Re: Is it really safe, sane, and consensual?

lady-kat said:

perhaps she is no longer in love with her partner, but loves him enough to "protect" him from hurt.

hence the "cloak and dagger stuff"

Click to expand...

Sometimes it is like the saying, you have to be cruel to be kind. From my perspective, and I don't think I am alone from the feedback I have had from counselling relationship clients, it is far more hurtful to find your partner has been unfaithful and betrayed your trust, than to be told up front by the one you believe to be your SO. As to not being in love with them any longer but loving them enough to be protecting them from hurt by deceiving them, what are you trying to say...that you feel so sorry for them and think them so pathetic they have no other opportunity to get someone who really cares and loves them?

To me that is not love in any language.....not the behaviour, but the assumption a person would prefer to remain married to someone who betrayed them without even having the decency to give them the choice. I know what my response would be to a partner who excused their behaviour that way. To me it is a bigger betrayal than the initial infidelity and says the funster thinks they have more to offer than the one who blindly trusts them.
So it is kinder that the person who is dissatisfied has a chance to explore and find happiness, and maybe one day up an leave, while the 'protected' party remains 'blissfully' unaware until one day they find the last few months/years have been not only a waste of time, but a lie...and of course then they have to go forth to find another relationship, if they still feel like it, and hope their emotional damage does not prevent them from finding happiness? Do you even stop and think of the damage you are possibly going to do to this person you 'love' if and when they find out? Just as you are entitled to your happiness, so are they. Perhaps the protection issue is more a safety net in case the new partner does not work out. At least there is someone to fill the void while you fantasise about past exploits that lead nowhere.


Catalina

Re: Re: Re: Is it really safe, sane, and consensual?

catalina_francisco said:

Sometimes it is like the saying, you have to be cruel to be kind. From my perspective, and I don't think I am alone from the feedback I have had from counselling relationship clients, it is far more hurtful to find your partner has been unfaithful and betrayed your trust, than to be told up front by the one you believe to be your SO. As to not being in love with them any longer but loving them enough to be protecting them from hurt by deceiving them, what are you trying to say...that you feel so sorry for them and think them so pathetic they have no other opportunity to get someone who really cares and loves them?

To me that is not love in any language.....not the behaviour, but the assumption a person would prefer to remain married to someone who betrayed them without even having the decency to give them the choice. I know what my response would be to a partner who excused their behaviour that way. To me it is a bigger betrayal than the initial infidelity and says the funster thinks they have more to offer than the one who blindly trusts them.
So it is kinder that the person who is dissatisfied has a chance to explore and find happiness, and maybe one day up an leave, while the 'protected' party remains 'blissfully' unaware until one day they find the last few months/years have been not only a waste of time, but a lie...and of course then they have to go forth to find another relationship, if they still feel like it, and hope their emotional damage does not prevent them from finding happiness? Do you even stop and think of the damage you are possibly going to do to this person you 'love' if and when they find out? Just as you are entitled to your happiness, so are they. Perhaps the protection issue is more a safety net in case the new partner does not work out. At least there is someone to fill the void while you fantasise about past exploits that lead nowhere.


Catalina

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Catalina.

you do not know me, or my SO, or the "situation" in my marriage to him. i have a great deal of respect for you, and i am NOT taking "shots" at you with this post.

but...

this is ultimately MY decision and the reasons for making it are ones i have no trouble sleeping with or facing myself in a mirror.

and

please look at your words you wrote to answer my post. the words "betrayal" and "betrayed trust" and "decency"

Catalina, i am not ashamed of who i am. what i have done. or what i will do.

i stand by my ealier words. i have affection for the man i married and have been with for a quarter of a century. tho, he is not altogether innocent in the situation we are in between us with our marriage. he is also not the only one who created the "situation" and admit i have some part in it....

my marriage it is what it is. and only one other person walking this earth knows the whole story.

____________________________________________________

someone else posted about life being short....
i will anwer that with a resounding "DAMN RIGHT IT IS"

in my humble opinion, it has nothing to do with honesty. or the kind of person i am. it is the hand life dealt me, more or less, and the choices i have made...... and how i choose to deal with those choices, with no apologies for my decisions, or the fact that i look outside my marriage for happiness.

I'll say that I have nothing but contept for people who cheat. They can dress it up however they like to justify it. They can claim that they have needs that must be met, or that the two people have grown apart. I say BULLSHIT. If you are too much of a coward to be honest, you are not worth alot in my book. More importantly, your 'submission', if that is what you claim, would be as useless to me as a third nipple. It is all a lie, isn't it? It is all about greed and cowardice and deception. You'll get what you want, at any cost, and fuck anyone who stands in your way.

Lady_Kat,

My view is not personally directed either, but is my view and not entirely from a no experience perspective. I can say I have been in the position twice of any real significance. The first one was dealing with marriage to an alcoholic and for reasons necessary to my emotional survival I betrayed the trust on one occasion and then decided to do as I knew was right for me and end a marriage that had long been dead in most ways that are needed to survive....and the ones which drive us to look elsewhere for something to fill the void.

The second time was when I was in a relationship where although the man involved loved me intensely, it was not what I needed and wanted, so I ended it. It was hard on him but he admits it would have been harder to have me go elsewhere and him find out, then have to deal with the feelings of inadequacy and all the self image/esteem questions that arise from such situations.

I have stated in other posts there are often extenuating circumstances, but I still believe if you are married you have to be honest and up front if only to be fair. After all you entereed into a partnership. If your SO has cheated in the past, so be it, deal with it....don't repeat the mistake by doing it yourself...and no, I am not presuming it is your circumstance, but some have cited it as an excuse. An excuse is what all these are, not valisd reasons. Relationships are hard enough without undermining trust and responsibility.

Catalina