keep the red flags flying!

There seems to be many new folk joining the site, so I thought it a good time to raise the topic of red flags.

For many newbie subs, their first interaction with a Dom will be with a predator, someone who will try to ensnare them into their own warped version of BDSM, whilst alienating them from the community at large where good and sensible advice can be sought.

So please chip in, what are the biggest red flags you have seen?

Dangerous Man

I've actually been contacted and asked to be a live in sub by a guy who wanted to keep me on LSD's the entire time and keep me locked up.

Lsd

Could be fun. On a more serious point i have been offered to fly out to New York and stay with him for a week to see how we get on; body bag optional. The easy one's are "Do you wanna play". The harder ones are the one's you sense are lying so you have to let them chat on and then pull them. For example saying they are best friends with some of their previous subs, yes they can get testimonials but by email. No the subs won't talk to me on a mobile that's intrusive. No. no is all i get. Long winded emails how i don't understand BDSM, how i have to give trust. How cowardly i am. How much dio I want etc. Well not that much actually so fuck off. That being said i have met three i liked online but felt no chemistry in person. And if i could learn how to upload on here i could send a pic of one who had a scarf round his face so i couldn't see his features; seriously what was the point.

On here though i think it's pretty chilled compared to other sites.

34DDasian said:

I've actually been contacted and asked to be a live in sub by a guy who wanted to keep me on LSD's the entire time and keep me locked up.

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WTF!!
Yeah, that qualifies as a very big red flag!

I've found that a dom that won't listen or respect what you have to say in casual conversation, will definitely not respect your body or your limits inside play.

That's the first red flag.

I was contacted yesterday. I asked him a few questions. He told me he was the DOM and would allow questions for now, he was the one who would ask the questions.

BTW I asked him twice if he was answered. Both times he ignored me.

Red flag.

If I have learned one thing here, it is communicate, communicate, communicate.

Sweetdaisymae,

Thanks for posting this! It is awesome that you have my back- in a sense. I am one of those newcomers you talk about- and I was shocked right off the bat at how many men messaged me. Being so nervous about joining, I had a plan to befriend a girl already in the lifestyle who didnt mind a million nagging questions on the topic! Haha. I thought it would be the safest route to get to know any girls already in the lifestyle and community. Not that I expected my new best friend to message me, but it is significant to point out that all of my messages came from men saying a lot of the same things already posted here. I wonder if I am missing a board where girls or submissives can chat and be on a look out for each other. A place where a newbie can learn from those already experiencing the lifestyle without anyone looking to message us just because we are 'fresh meat.' Anyway, its good be on a look out and I appreciate all of this prior experience to guide me.

Adct, in the early days, sometimes it is safer to switch off your IM box until your bullshit filter has become more refined.
Any new female gets bombarded, I still do, even tho I have owned and collared written all over my profile.

Don't be frightened to ask questions here on this forum, it is what it's here for. You will get to know the "sensible" kinksters, I say that because in the vanilla world, we don't appear all that sensible. You will get to see who posts regularly and knows what they are talking about.

Don't trust anyone who claims to know it all!
Hell, I have been lifestyle for 6 years and I know jack shit, but I am willing to admit that and learn.

Maybe think about finding a mentor. Someone you are not having a relationship with, but who will teach and keep an eye out for you.

Another couple:

A Dom who will not publicly acknowledge you as his.
Why not? Does he have other subs on the go wh he doesn't want you finding out about or them you?

A Dom who will prevent you having friends who are also into BDSM.
Because they will spot the red flags even if you dont.

A Dom who will not accept a safe word.

A Dom who ignores hard limits.

GooodGurrl said:

I've found that a dom that won't listen or respect what you have to say in casual conversation, will definitely not respect your body or your limits inside play.

That's the first red flag.

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agreed.

I'm somewhat torn on the concept of "red flags". One person's red flag, might be another persons simple issue of incompatibility.

For example, I loathe talking on the phone. So anyone wishing to speak with me by phone about my former lovers, would have a hard time doing so. I also believe that the "testimony" of former partners [submissive or dominant], is kind of like references on a resume - people are usually only going to let you talk to people who say the good stuff, not the bad. Therefore, I see no reason to ask for them, or put much stock in any references offered.

In the end, it's a relationship. Would you tolerate someone treating you like some stories already mentioned in the thread, if D/s wasn't in the picture? No? Then why tolerate those behaviors/ attitudes in someone applying to become your dominant partner?

Ultimately (IMO), the only real "protection" is knowing yourself. What are you looking for, what do you want out of the relationship (casual, or otherwise), and are you capable of standing your ground and saying no - without guilt?

Never let a dominant act like he's doing you a favor by being interested in you... you might just be doing him a favor, by being interested in him.

As usual--at least since I started visiting this thread regularly--CutieMouse offers excellent and balanced words of wisdom. Before doing anything rash (like meeting someone you don't know or trust), think about yourself. What do you want from this potential relationship? (There can be many answers to this question and as long as they are true to what you believe, they're fine.) What do you want to avoid? (Same thing.)

But here are a few things that occur to me.

1. Any supposed Dom who wants you to give up all aspects of your life that don't involve him before or just after you've met seems to me to be a Dom that's worth forgetting.

2. Always meet for the first time or two in a public place, have safe calls you will make before, during and after the meeting, and make sure you know who you're talking to--as in get real ID.

3. If you have a group in your area, try to become a part of it. You don't have to take it over or become the most active member, but do meet some people who seem to know what they're doing and who you think you can trust. Then use them as resources.

4. Finally, remember that in a very real sense, the sub has a lot of power. I can instruct my sub to do all sorts of things, I can do all sorts of delicious things to and with her, but the minute she decides she doesn't want any more, for whatever reason, it's over.

Good thread and good comments.

I found this excellent resource which should be essential reading for all new subs.
http://kinkylittlegirl.net/2014/01/13/dominant-vs-domineering-relationship-red-flag-list/

Sweetdaisymae said:

I found this excellent resource which should be essential reading for all new subs.
http://kinkylittlegirl.net/2014/01/13/dominant-vs-domineering-relationship-red-flag-list/

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I feel like such an asshole for saying this, but I can't agree with that list, and don't believe I would recommend it to new submissives. In part, because I happen to know I'm neither abusive nor domineering, and a good 50% of the "Danger! Danger Will Robinson!" stuff on that list applies to ME. (As in, I don't do references, came from an abusive background, am highly protective of personal information [in fact, sometimes guys don't get my phone number until the 4th or 5th date; one lover wasn't invited to my home until we'd known each other several years], haven't spoken to family in over 15 years, am introverted, don't participate at all in the local "scene", and can count the number of friends I have on one hand - with several fingers left over, etc.)

IMO, it's far more productive to discuss healthy relationships instead of dwell on "red flags" - BDSM or not.

What does a healthy relationship look like?
What do I need to do, to increase the odds I will have healthy relationships?
How does he (or she) treat waitstaff? Valets? Sales clerks?
Is this person quick to anger, and how to they deal with their frustrations?
Are we able to communicate clearly, without it turning into an argument or drama fest?
Is this person interested in my personal goals, and encourage me to achieve them?
What lessons have I learned from past relationships, that I don't want to repeat?
How do I set and enforce healthy boundaries?
If I experience "sub frenzy", how can I limit or prevent bad judgement?
Do I have the life skills to protect myself when meeting someone new? if not, what do I need to do to learn them?
If a relationship becomes unhealthy, do I know what that means (to myself), and do I have the ability to form an exit plan?

Etc.

Just a tiny aside...I think there are also differences between (mostly) online relationships and in-person relationships. I'm not all that experienced in online stuff (only did that once, and it went to r/l very quickly) so it might be helpful for someone to describe some mostly-online red flags, too.

I think the concept of red flags can be of some practical use but "Stay away from the big bad wolf" isn't very useful when you're out looking for the right kind of big bad wolf.
At the bottom of it all there is still the idea of a set of democratically agreed pon rules of what a (BDSM)relationship should be and how the people in it should behave. That is also exactly what gets people in trouble, putting aside their experience with people and relationships thinking this is how "it" is done and something that has to be accepted.

Dom written "DOM" would be a red flag to me though.

IrisAlthea said:

I think the concept of red flags can be of some practical use but "Stay away from the big bad wolf" isn't very useful when you're out looking for the right kind of big bad wolf.
At the bottom of it all there is still the idea of a set of democratically agreed pon rules of what a (BDSM)relationship should be and how the people in it should behave. That is also exactly what gets people in trouble, putting aside their experience with people and relationships thinking this is how "it" is done and something that has to be accepted.

Dom written "DOM" would be a red flag to me though.

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Yep. Sometimes all common sense flies out the window, no matter how many red flags go flapping in the wind, or concerns friends raise. Which means a lot of the time people need to learn the hard stuff, the hard way.

Thank you for the link to my blog post, Sweetdaisymae. I do hope that people find it - and indeed the whole blog - helpful.

CutieMouse, *no* single list or post is meant to be totally comprehensive or accurate in all situations, and there are certainly exceptions to many of the items in this one as well as in many others.

That said, most of these kinds of lists are still quite helpful especially for newbies, if for no other reasons than they get people thinking.

I do agree that focusing on what constitutes a good relationship is important; however, in the kink world in particular, other questions often do come up, and there is also often a rather thin line between kink and abuse. We have a shockingly high incidence of abuse in the kink community, accompanied by a frightful tendency to disbelieve the victim and to also write off much of what is *clearly* abusive as being D/s.

In short, I don't think that a discussion of D/s relationships can be complete without *also* addressing the other side, including some of the kinds of things to watch out for.

Perhaps you would find some of my other posts or many links to other lists of how to tell D/s from abuse more useful. Several of the posts that address the question of red flags in some way or another can be found at http://kinkylittlegirl.net/?s="red+flag"&submit=Search

And sadly, you're right that so often people still end up needing to learn the hard way after tossing common sense right out the window. I don't accept that as a reason to not still try to educate them, however (or support them) - for whenever they decide they are actually receptive to the information ;-)

kinkylittlegirl said:

We have a shockingly high incidence of abuse in the kink community, accompanied by a frightful tendency to disbelieve the victim and to also write off much of what is *clearly* abusive as being D/s.

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What are the statistics and/or rate of abuse?

I believe there is no difference between an abusive relationship in BDSM, and an abusive relationship outside of BDSM.

Is it wise to know what a healthy relationship looks like? Yes.
Is it wise to know what an unhealthy relationship looks like? Yes.
Do people (IMO) scream "RED FLAG" waaaaaaay to easily (and quickly) in BDSM? Hell yes.

The exact same list that was credited to someone on FetLife, or maybe SecondLife, or maybe some other kink-friendly source... is almost word for word the same sort of advice one will get from non-kink resources about domestic violence and abuse. (Yes I see the irony in linking a list from a website called the red flag campaign, when I dislike the term so much...) On the one hand, people into BDSM want to ignore the "vanilla" lists warning about abuse, because they may include things kinky people enjoy. But on the other hand, those same people slap "BDSM" in front of the list, and suddenly it's a vital community resource. You can't have it both ways.

To be blunt - I do not believe in anyone submitting to another human being, until they are a strong enough person to stand their ground and own their decisions*. This isn't "playtime"; this is adult interaction, with adult experiences and adult consequences. Sometimes that means shitty decisions get made. And that sucks giant monkey balls. It really really does. But shitty decisions are part of being human. So are the lessons they teach us.

* Dispensation on this belief for OSG (if she's still following the board) and/ or those like her. There are people out there who don't fit within my belief system re: self-ownership and BDSM, and even though I don't understand their way of life, I respect their right to live it.

kinkylittlegirl said:

We have a shockingly high incidence of abuse in the kink community, accompanied by a frightful tendency to disbelieve the victim and to also write off much of what is *clearly* abusive as being D/s.

Click to expand...

Daddy2mylilgirl said:

What are the statistics and/or rate of abuse?

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I keep an eye on a few (somewhat amusing) people with similar beliefs over at Fet... to date, no one has been able to show any statistical proof of the allegations. When pressed, the reason given is that no studies have been done, but "everyone knows" it happens.

In my world this -

and to also write off much of what is *clearly* abusive as being D/s.

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tends to translate as "this person does XYZ thing I think is dangerous and scary, and I don't understand it; therefore, it is obviously abusive!" Whereas I am more likely to think "Are they happy and functional? Is this working for everyone involved? Yes? It's not my thing, thank god, but it's not my place to cause them unwanted pain and suffering by insisting they are doing things all wrong."

When a man wants to be your mentor but doesn't want you to tell anyone. Like he's ashamed of me.
I think him continually pushing me to continue talking to all my friends and have cyber sex with them and tell him about it. was a sign of something wrong.
I also think him asking me to call every night and then not anwering or not beeing there. Then saying he has to go to bed soon.
When he starts ignoring me I feel was a bad sign too.

IMHO, any small thing that teaches someone to be on their guard, just a tiny bit more than usual, is helpful.

If you do a scene with a Dom and haven't clearly set down your limits, and he/she goes on to tie you up, gag you, then snake whip you until you bleed, then the fault was with you for not telling him that you only wished to be flogged with the softest of owl feathers.

It is about communication, but if in the communication, the Dom says and does things that are red flagish, you have the opportunity to reassess before moving forwards (or not)

It is about common sense, listening to your gut, having the tools to know what abusive behaviour looks like and having the confidence to act on your feelings.

CutieMouse said:

I keep an eye on a few (somewhat amusing) people with similar beliefs over at Fet... to date, no one has been able to show any statistical proof of the allegations. When pressed, the reason given is that no studies have been done, but "everyone knows" it happens.

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I figured.

In my world this -



tends to translate as "this person does XYZ thing I think is dangerous and scary, and I don't understand it; therefore, it is obviously abusive!" Whereas I am more likely to think "Are they happy and functional? Is this working for everyone involved? Yes? It's not my thing, thank god, but it's not my place to cause them unwanted pain and suffering by insisting they are doing things all wrong."

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Ownedsubgal (I believe that was her name) would be an example of that.

Mess?

Sometimes, after meeting someone many times in a public place and having many important discussions, I will agree to visit the new person's domicile. At that point, I'd say things are going well. After I walk in the door and see what a terrible state the host's living space is in, I feel I must reevaluate the situation.

Now, I am a rather easy-going sort. I'm not squeamish and an untidy home doesn't bother me. It's the homes that are completely filthy that do. (About a month of dirty dishes, trash, and animal waste everywhere would be a good example.) If a person cannot even handle his/her living space, how is that person going to handle me? I think it's a definite red flag.