Story Discussion: 9th April 2008 "Succubus Tales" by NanashiKuro

Hmm, seems quiet here. Might be because there's been a bunch of succubus/vampire stories gone through the queue recently.

I've been meaning to get some comments up, just been a little busy last couple of days.

I'll try and give my impressions tomorrow.

Sorry for the non-post. Didn't quite have as much time as I thought. Tomorrow, hopefully!

Hi Nanashi,

Thanks for sharing your story with us.

In an odd way, I think the style is best and worst facet of the story; there's something of a Victorian flavor to it- detailed, expository, and unhurried; all fitting for a first-person tale that takes place in the nineteenth century. While I admire that the story feels like it could have been told by someone from that era, I can't say I really enjoy this particular style.

Nanashi said:

The main point that I want addressing is my characters. I have trouble making them believable even to myself at times. I feel, and it has been said, that my characters tend to be rather 2D, and I'm looking to learn how to get some more depth into them.

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I didn't have any major issues with the characters- just a few minor curiosities about the narrator, like why does her face change to please her prospective partner but apparently not her body? And why doesn't someone so worldly speak French?

Nanashi said:

Our narrator/storyteller is supposed to be a new twist on the idea of a Succubus. Normally they are seen as daemonic man-eaters with no feelings. I thought, what if they did feel? What would she be thinking? What would she remember? So this I took and created my character.

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I don't understand why anyone would have a major issue with your twist on the theme, especially since you made it clear in the opening that your succubus was different. On the other hand, there is a distinct lack of danger and tension. If she was just a beautiful woman instead of a succubus, how would that change the story?

Nanashi said:

My main idea was first to have an older character recounting their memoirs or tales of their past to a visitor, or maybe a paying customer.

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If this succubus has seduced witches, vampires, and werecritters, why does she choose to tell us about her brief liaison with an obscure French officer? How many 'points' does she get for a captain? She must have had thousands of such encounters, what makes this one worth remembering, let alone recounting?

While the story is well-written and I appreciated the style, I can't say it kept me on the edge of my seat. I think it's missing that traditional ingredient of fiction: conflict. Erotica is a little different though, in that many readers just want a steamy sex scene- conflict optional, so if that's what your goal was, then I suspect it will work for your target audience.

Take Care,
Penny

Penelope Street said:

I didn't have any major issues with the characters- just a few minor curiosities about the narrator, like why does her face change to please her prospective partner but apparently not her body? And why doesn't someone so worldly speak French?

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Persephone can change her body. I have written something in there about not ever man likes the stereotypes, though it was more in passing. I've been trying too much to make it not be just a list of what she is and what she can do as an intro, and I've not explained it properly.

She can speak French, she just chooses to speak English to test the Captain. I suppose I could make this rather more clear.
There's a downfall again of my stories, I assume the reader knows as much as I do about my characters.

I don't understand why anyone would have a major issue with your twist on the theme, especially since you made it clear in the opening that your succubus was different. On the other hand, there is a distinct lack of danger and tension. If she was just a beautiful woman instead of a succubus, how would that change the story?

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I think that for this part of my story, it wouldn't change a thing, really, apart from maybe Henri probably wouldn't have had sex with just a beautiful woman.
Maybe I need more of a chase, or a fight of morals and her powers to add danger to the story, and make it more supernatural?

If this succubus has seduced witches, vampires, and werecritters, why does she choose to tell us about her brief liaison with an obscure French officer? How many 'points' does she get for a captain? She must have had thousands of such encounters, what makes this one worth remembering, let alone recounting?

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Again, this is me forgetting that the reader knows not what I do. I'll need a short paragraph in the intro explaining this, but she remembers this one at the time because it was good for her, sexually. She was more satisfied by this mortal man than she had been by a thousand Witches and Demons. There is a little in the main sex scene explaining that he made her feel things that she hadn't for years, but maybe that was too much in passing to be noticed that much.

While the story is well-written and I appreciated the style, I can't say it kept me on the edge of my seat. I think it's missing that traditional ingredient of fiction: conflict. Erotica is a little different though, in that many readers just want a steamy sex scene- conflict optional, so if that's what your goal was, then I suspect it will work for your target audience.

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There's the crux of one thing that I have been meaning to ask. I need to flesh out the story a little with background, complicating actions (twists) and the like in order to make it more than just "another erotic story". I aim to write in more of a descriptive style, as that's my background. I want to stay away from the porno style and get more into my character and setting creation, as that for me adds a lot to an erotic story.
I think maybe I want to try and get so that I write more of stories with sex, than stories of sex.

I'd be really grateful if anyone can give any ideas for things that I could think about when trying to make this a lot better. My mind is drawing a blank at this minute, so I'll try and think of some more things I think I need to add in the next day or so, and see if you people think that they'll add to the story.

Hi.

I think I'm with Penny on this one. I liked the 'Interview with a vampire' feel, but it felt like there was a spark missing somewhere.

I liked the start where you described what she is, particularly the opening line, but around about half way down the first page I didn't feel any particular hook to make we want to continue reading. To be fair, I like my stories fast-paced so I'm going to be a hard sell.

Perversely I think you might want to slow it down further. She felt like a decadent character in a decadent time. This feels like a good excuse to produce some lavish descriptions of nineteenth century Paris. Even though the story had a slow pace, I didn't really feel like I was immersed in the place or time.

I don't think it helped that Henri never really came alive for me. The succubus saw something special in him, but this didn't come through with the story. I fear he suffers from the 2D problem you mentioned earlier. I think making the stiff upper-lip heroes be anything other than dull is damned hard though.

I liked the section where she wanted to look in the mirror to see what she looked as a perfect girl for Henri.

I think the story maybe needed a little more bite. For me Succubi (and vampires) are manifestations of the darker side of sex. They're alluring and seductive, but there's an undercurrent of danger lying under the surface (which also adds to the attraction).

The succubus in this story felt a little too safe. I could see how she was using her abilities to draw Henri in, but after the first couple of paragraphs of the second page the story slipped into a straightforward historical romance. As Penny pointed out, she could have been any beautiful woman from this point on.

I'm a little biased though. Male characters have appallingly low life expectancies in my stories .

Your story will at least please the despairing readers i get comments from asking why, just for once, boy and succubus couldn't fuck happily ever after

I wouldn't be discouraged. The premise gives lots of scope for your succubus to have been in many interesting places over different time periods and with many interesting characters.

Nanashi said:

I aim to write in more of a descriptive style, as that's my background.

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So is this style a deliberate attempt to emulate nineteenth centurty literature or is this similar to the story telling manner of your other tales?

Nanashi said:

Maybe I need more of a chase, or a fight of morals and her powers to add danger to the story, and make it more supernatural?

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Henri proving to be a challenge would be a good start. Even if he's simply married and wishes to remain faithful, that woud inject some tension.

Nanashi said:

I want to stay away from the porno style and get more into my character and setting creation, as that for me adds a lot to an erotic story.

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I agree, a real story makes the erotic moments so much more meaningful. If the characters don't have to overcome some obstacle or take some risk to be together, it seems to lead to some pretty dull sex, doesn't it?

Nanashi said:

There is a little in the main sex scene explaining that he made her feel things that she hadn't for years, but maybe that was too much in passing to be noticed that much.

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I'm not sure it's so much that the explanation is in passing as I just wasn't there with her, you know? Looking at the conclusion again, I think just omitting that last paragraph might added a bittersweet edge and maybe helped me believe this evening was something special to her and not just conquest #7890481.

Hydra said:

I liked the section where she wanted to look in the mirror to see what she looked as a perfect girl for Henri.

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Me too! That was a special moment. Thinking about it again, it was also an opportunity for a real sit-up-and-take-notice surprise. Like, suppose she doesn't find her reflection comely at all- and tries to discover why? Or, for a real twist, what if she sees her true self, scales and all- then suddenly Captain Henri is a little more than the simple soldier we thought him to be.

I thought it was a fantastic story in terms of the writing. Just brilliant.

On the other hand, I have to say that the pacing was much too slow for my tastes, and that for the elaborate premise we're given—a chance to accompany a succubus on her rounds of seduction—nothing is done with it. The story is essentially a period piece pick-up and fuck scene and that's it. A beautiful period piece pick-up and fuck scene, but a pick-up and fuck scene nonetheless. The fact that she's a succubus never really enters into it, so why bother with the succubus bit?

But let me get back to the writing. The author has a real eye for detail, for setting, for character, and it's that that propels this story and keeps reader interest, but at the same time, it can get in her way too and bog things down. As I said, for me the story moved too slowly and I think it was because of the wealth of mannerist detail, as during their conversation at the café (all that military talk came to nothing), on the street, wherever they went. She's a very observant succubus and always injecting her minute descriptions of scenes. It slows the story to a crawl, even when it's not needed, and it's distracting.

It leads us to believe, for example, that there's some great significance to Henri's stopping at Pierre's house, when that turns out not to be the case at all. In fact, the story's filled with these little red herrings, which is what happens when you work in close focus all the time—everything seems important, and the fact is, nothing is important other than that they meet and screw. Sorry, but that's the bare bones of the story. Everything else goes nowhere.

Still, the writing is excellent. Not a cliché in the story, and everything seen afresh. The sex is some of the best I've seen written by a woman. *L* I should explain. In my experience, women tend to soft-focus the actual sex. They're more interested in the seduction and the emotional dimensions. Men are more interested in the graphic representation of the deed. But what we have in this story is graphic in a truly female sense and very nicely done. This is one place where the eye for detail really serves you well, and I found it terrifically arousing

I was a little jarred by her use of modernisms: Oops and g-spot and so on, but since she's talking to us today, they have to be allowed. They do kind of ruin the mood though

I just found the whole thing beautifully done. I loved the settings, the atmosphere, the sense of interaction between the characters, even the weather. My only cavils are with the pacing and with the fact that the potential of the idea wasn't really exploited. To my mind, a succubus is a supernatural demon who appears to men in dreams and feeds off their sexual energy, leaving them weak and drained and finally killing them, a personification of sexual guilt. I didn't see any difference between Persephone and a rather sporting French lady.

I'm off to read the other comments now.

--Zoot

Having read the other comments, I'm most surprised by Hydra's asking for you to slow it down further. I can't imagine what a slower story would be like! I think maybe she means for there to be more atmospherics? More sense of place and romance?

As it is, Persephone and Henri never do strike sparks and they won't because there's no sense of danger here. There can't be because Persephone's in charge of things from the opening paragraph, and without a woman in danger you don't have romance. That's probably why you had to drop the succubus angle once you brought your characters together, because you knew instinctively you couldn't make it work as romance, only horror. Persephone is seduced. She's not a seductress. The story's a bait & switch.

(We could get into a beautiful discussion here about Paglian theory of female seductresses and male horror, but I'll wait for someone else to start it )

I hadn't read Nanashi's comments before I'd replied, but I really don't think character's your problem, or writing in a more descriptive style. If anything, you're overdoing it in those departments. Your problem is plot and action, finding things for your characters to do that express what they're thinking and feeling so you don't have to come out and tell us all the time.

As I said, they don't strike sparks because Persephone's never in danger, so the way to fix this story is to put her in danger. Put her in danger of losing her heart to Henri, make her a succubus in love. Or make her get so intoxicated when she starts inhaling his masculine energies that she gets absolutely drunk and can't leave him. Personally, I would lose the whole wise-cracking beginning and make it a straight period piece because that's what you do so beautifully in here, or if you want her talking to the camera, have her talking in period garb. Then make it a story of her falling in love with a mortal and losing him, of maybe making him an incubus, or whatever you want. But a succubus in her supernatural passion would be something to see. That would be worth the price of admission.

Or maybe he's a vampire (that's what I thought was going to happen.) Think of the wildest thing you can and then go for it. That's how you do plots.

You tried. You started to try your wings with Henri talking about his military assignment and their going to Pierre's, but nothing happened to these subplots. You should go with them and see where they lead. To do that you have to pare down the detail in your writing and write in bigger chunks of action: "Pierre was a ne'er-do-well whose home was a hovel..." Things like that. Then your characters will develop personality through their actions and stop being 2-D and the story becomes rich and deep. It's hard to get involved with characters who don't do anything.

You certainly have the chops as a writer. What you need is the material, always the toughest part. For me, I just let my characters go and see where they lead me. Part of having a gift is learning to trust it. If you let your characters go and they get you into a predicament, you're all set. That's what you're hoping for. You can always get them out.

Zoot said:

We could get into a beautiful discussion here about Paglian theory of female seductresses and male horror, but I'll wait for someone else to start it.

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If it's related in some way to Persephone's story or her character, then I don't see why the topic can't be visited here.

Zoot said:

As I said, they don't strike sparks because Persephone's never in danger, so the way to fix this story is to put her in danger. Put her in danger of losing her heart to Henri, make her a succubus in love.

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I like this idea. If those 'points' she mentioned are akin to calories and she can never 'feed' off the same individual again, then being in love could be awkward if not downright dangerous. She'd have to cheat just to live- what a dilemma. On a lighter note, I can envision a pair of succubi crossing paths and lamenting the lack of high-nourishment victuals to be found of late.

dr_mabeuse said:

I thought it was a fantastic story in terms of the writing. Just brilliant.

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Wow, thanks!

On the other hand, I have to say that the pacing was much too slow for my tastes, and that for the elaborate premise we're given—a chance to accompany a succubus on her rounds of seduction—nothing is done with it. The story is essentially a period piece pick-up and fuck scene and that's it. A beautiful period piece pick-up and fuck scene, but a pick-up and fuck scene nonetheless. The fact that she's a succubus never really enters into it, so why bother with the succubus bit?

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I've been lamenting the very same fact myself, since the first comment on it that it wasn't very succubi-like. I've been tinkering a little to make Persephone a little more evil/hungry/demonic but I don't think that it's working too well. See lower down for more.

But let me get back to the writing. The author has a real eye for detail, for setting, for character, and it's that that propels this story and keeps reader interest, but at the same time, it can get in her way too and bog things down. As I said, for me the story moved too slowly and I think it was because of the wealth of mannerist detail, as during their conversation at the café (all that military talk came to nothing), on the street, wherever they went. She's a very observant succubus and always injecting her minute descriptions of scenes. It slows the story to a crawl, even when it's not needed, and it's distracting.

It leads us to believe, for example, that there's some great significance to Henri's stopping at Pierre's house, when that turns out not to be the case at all. In fact, the story's filled with these little red herrings, which is what happens when you work in close focus all the time—everything seems important, and the fact is, nothing is important other than that they meet and screw. Sorry, but that's the bare bones of the story. Everything else goes nowhere.

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Hehe, my epic descriptions are a downfall, that's a new one! Nevertheless, I see where you're coming from here. There really is no point to Henri stopping at Pierre's, as far as the story is concerned, it just serves as a good bot of descriptive writing that helps keep the word count up. Seeing as I don't want to develop Pierre as any sort of character, maybe I could have Persephone do something to him later? Get back at him for all his evil deeds towards women by taking her anger out on him, killing him really brutally?

Still, the writing is excellent. Not a cliché in the story, and everything seen afresh. The sex is some of the best I've seen written by a woman. *L* I should explain. In my experience, women tend to soft-focus the actual sex. They're more interested in the seduction and the emotional dimensions. Men are more interested in the graphic representation of the deed. But what we have in this story is graphic in a truly female sense and very nicely done. This is one place where the eye for detail really serves you well, and I found it terrifically arousing

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Back to the nice again, haha. But seriously, thanks. I aim to keep myself free of cliche, it's icky in the main. And yes, I don't soft focus, I'm hardcore! I have a male brain, according to many tests, and I know I don't think like the average woman. Hey, it works, apparently.

I was a little jarred by her use of modernisms: Oops and g-spot and so on, but since she's talking to us today, they have to be allowed. They do kind of ruin the mood though

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Yeah, I had to add them, I think, as I'm too modern myself. I tried to steer away from them as best I could, as she is really old, so she would use more archaic language than the average modern woman.

I just found the whole thing beautifully done. I loved the settings, the atmosphere, the sense of interaction between the characters, even the weather. My only cavils are with the pacing and with the fact that the potential of the idea wasn't really exploited. To my mind, a succubus is a supernatural demon who appears to men in dreams and feeds off their sexual energy, leaving them weak and drained and finally killing them, a personification of sexual guilt. I didn't see any difference between Persephone and a rather sporting French lady.

Click to expand...

I have been toying with the idea of changing her from a succubus to an immortal woman, who's the personification of the stereotype, but that would lose my opening, which I love. I'd better rethink the whole thing then, and write in a lot more of her dark side.
I have done a bit so far, but it's hard to keep writing it. Looks like I'll have to write it twice, hehe, once through making the rough story, then through again to make it rather more succubussy (I think I just invented that word, but meh, if Shakespeare can do it, so can I).

dr_mabeuse said:

Having read the other comments, I'm most surprised by Hydra's asking for you to slow it down further. I can't imagine what a slower story would be like! I think maybe she means for there to be more atmospherics? More sense of place and romance?

Click to expand...

I sort of like the speed that it's at now, not too slow for me, but I don't like it too quick either. The suspense is really what I love to read and love to write.

As it is, Persephone and Henri never do strike sparks and they won't because there's no sense of danger here. There can't be because Persephone's in charge of things from the opening paragraph, and without a woman in danger you don't have romance. That's probably why you had to drop the succubus angle once you brought your characters together, because you knew instinctively you couldn't make it work as romance, only horror. Persephone is seduced. She's not a seductress. The story's a bait & switch.

(We could get into a beautiful discussion here about Paglian theory of female seductresses and male horror, but I'll wait for someone else to start it )

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I agree, and I'm writing more horror into it day by day. She needs to be more of the predator, I've made her too nice! I was aiming for the nicer side of a succubus, but not quite so lovely as she is.
I disagree with the romance thing in a way, as you don't need romance to be erotic. I was wrking for something horror-erotic with her as the captor, but I see what you mean, I've just let it slip into average one-night-stand stuff, just with big frilly dresses.

I hadn't read Nanashi's comments before I'd replied, but I really don't think character's your problem, or writing in a more descriptive style. If anything, you're overdoing it in those departments. Your problem is plot and action, finding things for your characters to do that express what they're thinking and feeling so you don't have to come out and tell us all the time.

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I do struggle with that, but is that not what makes my character 2D, in having to tell us all the time what she is thinking?
Also, she's not succubussy.

As I said, they don't strike sparks because Persephone's never in danger, so the way to fix this story is to put her in danger. Put her in danger of losing her heart to Henri, make her a succubus in love. Or make her get so intoxicated when she starts inhaling his masculine energies that she gets absolutely drunk and can't leave him. Personally, I would lose the whole wise-cracking beginning and make it a straight period piece because that's what you do so beautifully in here, or if you want her talking to the camera, have her talking in period garb. Then make it a story of her falling in love with a mortal and losing him, of maybe making him an incubus, or whatever you want. But a succubus in her supernatural passion would be something to see. That would be worth the price of admission.

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I see that it could work as a period piece, but I really do want it to work as a fantasy piece, so I have to work at it.
To improve in my genre, and to write what I mean to and want to, I'm going to have to work pretty hard, but that's the way that I'm going to improve.

Or maybe he's a vampire (that's what I thought was going to happen.) Think of the wildest thing you can and then go for it. That's how you do plots.

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I thought of that too, but it would be hard to make him suddenly come out as a vampire as Persephone has supernatural powers, and she already said that she knew he was magical underneath, but doesn't know it.

You tried. You started to try your wings with Henri talking about his military assignment and their going to Pierre's, but nothing happened to these subplots. You should go with them and see where they lead. To do that you have to pare down the detail in your writing and write in bigger chunks of action: "Pierre was a ne'er-do-well whose home was a hovel..." Things like that. Then your characters will develop personality through their actions and stop being 2-D and the story becomes rich and deep. It's hard to get involved with characters who don't do anything.

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I didn't want to make much of the sub-plots really, as there's nothing going to go on with them past this story, at least that's what I originally planned. The sequel is supposed to be another of her tales from another time. It sort of distracts from the sex bit, and the chase (though that's rather non-existent atm), but I have already said how I could make more of it with Persephone taking her revenge/frustration out on Pierre.

You certainly have the chops as a writer. What you need is the material, always the toughest part. For me, I just let my characters go and see where they lead me. Part of having a gift is learning to trust it. If you let your characters go and they get you into a predicament, you're all set. That's what you're hoping for. You can always get them out.

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I'm trying to learn. Though trying's not the right word, as it has to flow, like a natural thing. I'm giving myself a break from Persephone with writing more of another non-erotic story, in which I have no idea where the plot is going, so I am letting my character roam free, with more of just the profile of the character in mind, and how she would react.

All in all, thanks for the comments, advice and such, it's all taken in and processed into me getting better by the day.
And as Penelope said, feel free to discuss anything that's appropriate to the story.

Penelope Street said:

I like this idea. If those 'points' she mentioned are akin to calories and she can never 'feed' off the same individual again, then being in love could be awkward if not downright dangerous. She'd have to cheat just to live- what a dilemma. On a lighter note, I can envision a pair of succubi crossing paths and lamenting the lack of high-nourishment victuals to be found of late.

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There are plans in another part of the longer story to have Persephone meet up with at least one of her "sisters" and have a good time. In more ways than one.

You don't have to switch Persephone from nice to nasty, but I think there does need to be some element of danger, otherwise it's a waste of a perfectly good demon

Putting Persephone in danger opens up a lot of pitfalls in my opinion though. She's a demon and therefore more powerful than a normal human, so the danger has to be greater. It's an easy temptation then to do another one of those tedious vampire-on-werewolf-on-demon-on-etc stories. Personally I dislike them because they either miss out the human aspect and have nothing to anchor them to any kind of recognisable reality, or humanise the non-human so much it takes away the mystery. I'm probably in a minority though as these kind of stories are popular at the moment (Ignore me, I'm still whinging about the transformation of the horror genre into the vampire genre).

Another way of putting her in danger is asking what happens if a succubus falls in love. Getting too involved with a victim is probably a bad thing. She's not doing her job properly then and maybe that's when the boss comes calling to sort things out.

Personally I prefer the idea of the danger stemming from her. Even if she's 'nice', she's still a demon and should provoke some form of fear. I think the story would have had a lot more tension if you'd kept us in the dark a little longer about her intentions with Henri. She could decide he's nice enough to spare or she could decide to kill him afterwards. As long as there's ambiguity in the reader's mind then there's going to be tension and they're going to be more likely to read on to discover what happens.

My tuppence anyway.