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Is it cheating?

Which of the following constitutes cheating?

  • exchanging PMs with someone but not on sex-related topics

    Votes: 2 3.4%

  • ild flirting on threads (of the sort that goes on all the time)

    Votes: 6 10.3%

  • writing and posting a story that includes sex scenes that may or may not be inspired by your RL part

    Votes: 2 3.4%

  • none of the above

    Votes: 47 81.0%

  • all 3 of these

    Votes: 8 13.8%
  • Total voters
    58
  • Poll closed .
Dyslexicea said:
All I can say to this is this, Another ugly example of the abuse of Evolutionary Psychology and I'll also add this, Psychology Constructs the Female by Naomi Weisstein. Although Naomi's essay was written in 1968, you, along with a number of other male authors here at Lit, have proven it's just as relevant in 2014 as it was in 1968, forty six years later.

Maybe I'll make my wife a sandwich or maybe she'll make one for me! At least some things have changed in forty six years.
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It's always fun to experience how Naomi Weisstein manages to combine confirmation bias with narrowmindedness. She invariably make me think of Abraham Mazlow's famous words, "I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail."

Basically her position is, that women and men are biologically identical and every observed difference between the sexes is aquired and thus caused by societal pressure and gender stereotypes. How refreshingly simple the world was back in the seventies :rolleyes:

But today we dont face the same societal constraints, so we are allowed to acknowledge science, even when it goes against "political correctness." And the fact is, that the sexes are quite different in many areas, some of which has nothing to do with stereotypes or aquired behavior. Our way of solving problems are different, our way of resolving conflicts are different, our way of prioritizing ressources are different - and it's not because I played with guns and my sister played with dolls. The gender specific traits will eventually emerge even if the roles are reversed.

Love is a highly complex concept that combines psychology and bio chemistry and draws on both inherent and aquired traits. We evolved it for a reason - most likely because it promotes cooperation and coexistence which increases our survival rate.

So when I claim that SG cant separate sex and love it is not because society doesn't want her to nor because misogynistic male chauvinist pigs can't accept a free-spirited woman enjoying life. It is simply because the cave women most likely to survive thousands of years ago were the ones that kept their cavemen around to clobber those pesky sabre tooth tigers for them.
 
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MrFoxwood said:
You're quite right, I completely forgot what it was I wanted to say. That'll teach me to be here at stupid o'clock in the morning.

I'd say that whether or not anything constitutes cheating is still entirely dependant on the ideas about fidelity as held by the couple. Emotional relationships with people outside of the couple could still be regarded as cheating and could be no less hurtful than physical infidelity. I would suspect that the concept of emotional cheating hurts most people less than the idea of their partner physically cheating, but without explicitly stating ones opinion how is ones partner to know.
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I do have strong emotional attachments to some people outside of my marriage, none of which I would consider as being remotely unfaithful. The idea that one person is suppose to fulfill all our emotional needs is ludicrous. In my opinion even if that outside relationship becomes somewhat romantic, it only becomes a matter of infidelity if the intent is to act upon that romantic emotion against, as Bramblethorn stated, the consent of the other, or others, involved in a person's relationship.

I'm going to assume your hetero, so your wife having a emotional non sexual relationship with another woman isn't a problem with you. So why would her having the same type of relationship with a man risk being considered cheating? How is her having a strong, emotional friendship, even including some flirting, with another man being unfaithful to your marriage, if she has no intention of violating your marital arrangement?

As someone looking at heterosexual relationship from the outside, I see most of them as very possessive by both partners. As a lesbian I couldn't live my life without women being part of it, which does mean strong emotional bonds with others, not just my wife, just as she has those relationships also. If I had to live my life worried because of those relationship she'd leave me for another woman, I'd be a basket case.
 
Dyslexicea said:
As a lesbian I couldn't live my life without women being part of it, which does mean strong emotional bonds with others, not just my wife, just as she has those relationships also. If I had to live my life worried because of those relationship she'd leave me for another woman, I'd be a basket case.
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This bit in particular is sort of profound. Mostly because, in many relationships, that is exactly what is expected: a purposeful abandonment of interaction with the opposite sex. Which doesn't account for faithfulness so much as a woeful ignorance and avoidance of one's own true desires and impulses.

"See that island? That is where the other men live, with their six-pack abs and and their Barry White music. You must never go there, little flower. Stay here on Housewife Island in isolation and be forever loyal. We will prove the virtue of our love by never testing it, in the way of all good theories. Nor will we seek to learn, about ourselves or the world. And like the dinosaurs that died out a scant 2,000 years ago, we will rest peacefully always."

Lesbians, however, don't have that option. They have to *gasp* trust their partners to go to the bathroom alone! And there are women in there...with vaginas! And lesbians *bigger gasp* like...vaginas! The horror!

"Could you please roll the TP under the stall. I'm out. And how's about a quick bit of irresistible infidelity while you're at it. Rawr!"

How well, I wonder, could most hetero relationships deal with such blatant "temptation"?
 
Dyslexicea said:
I do have strong emotional attachments to some people outside of my marriage, none of which I would consider as being remotely unfaithful. The idea that one person is suppose to fulfill all our emotional needs is ludicrous. In my opinion even if that outside relationship becomes somewhat romantic, it only becomes a matter of infidelity if the intent is to act upon that romantic emotion against, as Bramblethorn stated, the consent of the other, or others, involved in a person's relationship.

I'm going to assume your hetero, so your wife having a emotional non sexual relationship with another woman isn't a problem with you. So why would her having the same type of relationship with a man risk being considered cheating? How is her having a strong, emotional friendship, even including some flirting, with another man being unfaithful to your marriage, if she has no intention of violating your marital arrangement?

As someone looking at heterosexual relationship from the outside, I see most of them as very possessive by both partners. As a lesbian I couldn't live my life without women being part of it, which does mean strong emotional bonds with others, not just my wife, just as she has those relationships also. If I had to live my life worried because of those relationship she'd leave me for another woman, I'd be a basket case.
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AMoveableBeast said:
This bit in particular is sort of profound. Mostly because, in many relationships, that is exactly what is expected: a purposeful abandonment of interaction with the opposite sex. Which doesn't account for faithfulness so much as a woeful ignorance and avoidance of one's own true desires and impulses.

"See that island? That is where the other men live, with their six-pack abs and and their Barry White music. You must never go there, little flower. Stay here on Housewife Island in isolation and be forever loyal. We will prove the virtue of our love by never testing it, in the way of all good theories. Nor will we seek to learn, about ourselves or the world. And like the dinosaurs that died out a scant 2,000 years ago, we will rest peacefully always."

Lesbians, however, don't have that option. They have to *gasp* trust their partners to go to the bathroom alone! And there are women in there...with vaginas! And lesbians *bigger gasp* like...vaginas! The horror!

"Could you please roll the TP under the stall. I'm out. And how's about a quick bit of irresistible infidelity while you're at it. Rawr!"

How well, I wonder, could most hetero relationships deal with such blatant "temptation"?
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Now we're getting at the crux of my question and my poll - how complete and exclusive a claim does a partner in a committed relationship have on the "intellect," for lack of a better term, of the other person. Someone earlier in the thread, maybe SL, made the point that even nonsexual relationships can be unfaithful if they compete with the emotional focus of two partners in a committed sexual relationship. I guess this is where people may begin sliding down slippery slopes - but any relationship could be challenged by friends, acquaintances. So ... it all comes down to trust vs control, topped with communication?
 
Aynmair said:
Now we're getting at the crux of my question and my poll - how complete and exclusive a claim does a partner in a committed relationship have on the "intellect," for lack of a better term, of the other person. Someone earlier in the thread, maybe SL, made the point that even nonsexual relationships can be unfaithful if they compete with the emotional focus of two partners in a committed sexual relationship. I guess this is where people may begin sliding down slippery slopes - but any relationship could be challenged by friends, acquaintances. So ... it all comes down to trust vs control, topped with communication?
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I don't think anyone has a claim on another person. I think people have expectations in a relationship. Relationships come undone when expectations that have been "agreed upon" are ignored on a consistent basis. That could be about money, sexuality, time, who's changing the baby's diaper, whatever.

Some people believe they should just do whatever their impulses prod them to do. If their partner is on board with that, then have at it. If their partner isn't, then have the courage to discuss it, even if it means risking the relationship. If you hide what you're doing, you lack integrity, and are behaving like a spoiled child.
 
BTW, I find it interesting to note that there was a thread asking if people's partner's were aware they wrote and posted out here. Quite a few said no.

Is that cheating? It's dishonest. I will say that.
 
Doesn't everything, Aynmair?

Being as I'm considered psychotic or at least sociopathic in some circles, it's always been a bit of a fetish of mine to figure out what makes other, "more normal" people around me tick.

Wait... that isn't as "Dexterish" as it came out. I meant in terms of what they are thinking and what motivates them to make the decisions that they do.

Based on my experiences, which aren't by any stretch all inclusive, I hate to say it, but I think this is a case by case phenomenon with a lot more questions than are normally comfortable for all involved to ask.

I know quite a few "manly men" who would turn the golf clubs or cue sticks or darts they wield on a regular basis to another use if they thought I was even hinting that their "guy time" was on the level of a platonic affair. And yet, I have seen women jealous of that very time "with the guys".

But, yes. I think your observation comes close to the crux of the matter as much as any single observation can, that it does come down to trust versus control and always, and very much, open and honest communication with maybe just a hint of "exclusion" or at least the feeling that it exists.
 
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Dyslexicea said:
The same type of relationship with a man risk being considered cheating? How is her having a strong, emotional friendship, even including some flirting, with another man being unfaithful to your marriage, if she has no intention of violating your marital arrangement?
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That would be cheating for me because my wife is heterosexual. If she develops strong emotions for another man - and she would eventually - it diminishes my output from our marriage, and I will not accept that.

Mind you, she has plenty of male (and lesbian) friends that she socializes and do various activities with. Just like I have have female friends and colleagues. But there are certain boundaries that neither of us may cross, and they're not just physical.

I have never told my wife what she can or cannot do - she's a grown-up and thats not my job - and I would never waste time (or disrespect her) by checking up on her activities. But I expect her to use common sense and be loyal to our relationship. Otherwise we have nothing and then what would be the point of marriage?




Dyslexicea said:
As someone looking at heterosexual relationship from the outside, I see most of them as very possessive by both partners. As a lesbian I couldn't live my life without women being part of it, which does mean strong emotional bonds with others, not just my wife, just as she has those relationships also. If I had to live my life worried because of those relationship she'd leave me for another woman, I'd be a basket case.
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That's not a heterosexual thing D.

We have a gay friend who drops by approximately once every three months a complete wreck because his latest love interest has bonded - and ultimately left - with another man. From my vantage point it doesn't seem like homosexual couples are any different from heterosexual ones. Actually the drama seem even more intense. Ever seen two gay guys fight? It's not a pretty sight... :rolleyes:
 
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lovecraft68 said:
Is he really just that? Or are you already in the pattern of defending him to everybody? Making excuses for his anti social behavior and the way he doesn't want you t go anywhere.

When you hear yourself tell someone, "No, he's not a bad guy, really." get the hell out and file the retraining order on your way out the door.
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well thank you, but he isn't quite THAT bad. A lot of his issues is him family, and anyone that knows me on here knows that story. They are really the in laws from hell for me.
He changed when we moved and had to start being around them more. I know, when I get us away from them, he will change back. Or I am hoping he will anyway.
But a lot of it is his personality I am afraid. His mother, god rest her soul, was something else. never happy and bitched 24/7. He gets a lot of that from her.
 
lovecraft68 said:
You said it better than I could. My wife works with women like SG every day. Well the ones that unfortunately didn't get out before it got really ugly.

Jealousy is an ugly emotion as is possessiveness. Any man that sees his woman as a possession is no man. Their jealousy masks poor self esteem they know their losers therefore are threatened by any attention a decent man may give "his" woman and of course its always the woman's fault and she is made to feel that way.

Made to feel guilty and live in fear and stay away from everyone else. Isolation is the number one bullet in the gun of the jealous/possessive type.

To small girl, run while you can.
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He doesn't get jealous...he loves seeing other men look at me. He just thinks being online talking to another man is cheating. Ok...he can think that all he wants.
Personally I don't see it any differently than sitting in class cutting up with the guys in my class...but to each their own.
But, he has never laid a hand on me and he wont. He knows better...I'll lay him out.
I cant say I will always stay. I know there is a good man in there somewhere, cause I have had that man. I just have to drag myself through all his family bullshit and find him again.
 
Swilly said:
BTW, I find it interesting to note that there was a thread asking if people's partner's were aware they wrote and posted out here. Quite a few said no.

Is that cheating? It's dishonest. I will say that.
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I said "no" a while back. I don't consider writing racy stories to be cheating - as long as I don't act them out.

In the mean time she has found out, and it turned out that I was right :)
 
lovecraft68 said:
Is he really just that? Or are you already in the pattern of defending him to everybody? Making excuses for his anti social behavior and the way he doesn't want you t go anywhere.

When you hear yourself tell someone, "No, he's not a bad guy, really." get the hell out and file the retraining order on your way out the door.
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I don't see that as defending him. As his wife, I see what he has to put up with, all the shit with his family, his dad, his mom passing and the way his siblings treated her while she lay dying, and his job. Anyone that deals with the public in retail has a terrible job...most people are whiners and want everything free I have learned through him.
I see the shit he lives with every day...it would break most people.
 
StrangeLife said:
It's always fun to experience how Naomi Weisstein manages to combine confirmation bias with narrowmindedness. She invariably make me think of Abraham Mazlow's famous words, "I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail."

Basically her position is, that women and men are biologically identical and every observed difference between the sexes is aquired and thus caused by societal pressure and gender stereotypes. How refreshingly simple the world was back in the seventies :rolleyes:

But today we dont face the same societal constraints, so we are allowed to acknowledge science, even when it goes against "political correctness." And the fact is, that the sexes are quite different in many areas, some of which has nothing to do with stereotypes or aquired behavior. Our way of solving problems are different, our way of resolving conflicts are different, our way of prioritizing ressources are different - and it's not because I played with guns and my sister played with dolls. The gender specific traits will eventually emerge even if the roles are reversed.

Love is a highly complex concept that combines psychology and bio chemistry and draws on both inherent and aquired traits. We evolved it for a reason - most likely because it promotes cooperation and coexistence which increases our survival rate.

So when I claim that SG cant separate sex and love it is not because society doesn't want her to nor because misogynistic male chauvinist pigs can't accept a free-spirited woman enjoying life. It is simply because the cave women most likely to survive thousands of years ago were the ones that kept their cavemen around to clobber those pesky sabre tooth tigers for them.
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As per all the men's right advocates and of course spoken with the authority of Mansplain.

Obviously you know nothing of Naomi Weisstein if you contend she believed we were biologically identical. As a matter of fact you couldn't have even read her essay or if you did you have rather low reading comprehension.

Just for your information, gender is not always determined by biology. Biology is not destiny! Even among those of us who are cisgendered and happy with our biology it doesn't mean our gender indemnities are all the same.

Being I'm a cisgendered woman my biology is of course not the same as yours but you were not posting about biology, you were posting about evolutionary psychology, using it in such a way as to say all women are the same and further defining that sameness to be as you yourself decided it to be, regardless of how we, as individual women, experience life and define ourselves. Worst yet when you were contradicted by the women here you come up with no you can't be the way you are because of evolutionary psychology. Rather sexist if you ask me!

To make matters worse you discount culture. You discount how we are raised and how differently we experience our culture as opposed to how boys are raised and experience our culture. Your argument was as bad as saying it's evolutionary psychology that girls like pink and boys like blue, despite the fact that at the start of the twentieth century it was just the opposite.

Speaking of evolutionary biology the next thing you'll be contending is we have boobs for the propose of turning on men. Which some men do belief based of some rather strange views of evolutionary biology, despite the fact that in cultures where we don't cover our breast men don't find them the least bit stimulating. Or maybe you like to believe our nipples are sensitive for the purpose of sexual stimulation due to sexual evolutionary biology, rather than the truth, which is our nipples are sensitive because during lactation the nipple being sucked on signals the release of our milk so we can nurse our infants. Nipples being sensitive is a wonderful side effect during arousal but it has nothing to do with sexual evolutionary biology.
 
Dyslexicea said:
....Just for your information, gender is not always determined by biology. Biology is not destiny!...
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There is scientific evidence indicating that some personality traits do have biological roots. I'm thinking specifically of the studies showing how liberals and conservatives process information differently. I would assume biology would also influence other personality traits. Whether or not the degree of influence can be quantified remains unclear, but I think we can all agree that biology plays a role. :)

Taking it a step further, biology may influence jealousy, in that some people may be more prone to it than others based on how they process information due to the physiology of their brains.
 
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StrangeLife said:
That would be cheating for me because my wife is heterosexual. If she develops strong emotions for another man - and she would eventually - it diminishes my output from our marriage, and I will not accept that.

Mind you, she has plenty of male (and lesbian) friends that she socializes and do various activities with. Just like I have have female friends and colleagues. But there are certain boundaries that neither of us may cross, and they're not just physical.

I have never told my wife what she can or cannot do - she's a grown-up and thats not my job - and I would never waste time (or disrespect her) by checking up on her activities. But I expect her to use common sense and be loyal to our relationship. Otherwise we have nothing and then what would be the point of marriage?
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Let's just remove sex from the equation, how does your wife having a strong loving emotional relationship with anyone, woman or man, other than yourself diminish your output, whatever that is, from your marriage? Does she not already have those kinds of relationships, mother, father, sister, brother, best friend or children?

What I see in not the diminishment of anything other than your feelings of ownership. You contend you don't set rules but we all set rules by our outward expressions of our attitudes. I can't imagine a life where close loving emotional relationship with anyone, woman or man, is denied me or is somehow considered cheating. I guess if I was your wife, thank god I'm a lesbian, we'd have to agree to disagree in divorce court.

That's not a heterosexual thing D.

We have a gay friend who drops by approximately once every three months a complete wreck because his latest love interest has bonded - and ultimately left - with another man. From my vantage point it doesn't seem like homosexual couples are any different from heterosexual ones. Actually the drama seem even more intense. Ever seen two gay guys fight? It's not a pretty sight... :rolleyes:
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That's like Sarah Palin saying she has a lesbian friend so we're all just like her friend and we all think just like her friend, despite the fact every lesbian I know disagreed with Palin!

In the first place I don't see a three month relationship as a committed relationship and if your friend is having that many relationship problems maybe, almost assuredly, it's him not the other men.

Despite the stereotype you seem to want to use, gay men are no more or less slutty than heterosexual men. I assure you gay men in committed relationships do have other close male relationships and they are no more likely to violate their agreed upon relationship boundaries than men who happen to be hetero.
 
SikFuk said:
There is scientific evidence indicating that some personality traits do have biological roots. I'm thinking specifically of the studies showing how liberals and conservatives process information differently. I would assume biology would also influence other personality traits. Whether or not the degree of influence can be quantified remains unclear, but I think we can all agree that biology plays a role. :)

Taking it a step further, biology may influence jealousy, in that some people may be more prone to it than others based on how they process information due to the physiology of their brains.
Click to expand...

I'd love to read that study, can you please give a link. May I ask has it been replicated and peer reviewed?
 
Aynmair said:
Now we're getting at the crux of my question and my poll - how complete and exclusive a claim does a partner in a committed relationship have on the "intellect," for lack of a better term, of the other person. Someone earlier in the thread, maybe SL, made the point that even nonsexual relationships can be unfaithful if they compete with the emotional focus of two partners in a committed sexual relationship. I guess this is where people may begin sliding down slippery slopes - but any relationship could be challenged by friends, acquaintances. So ... it all comes down to trust vs control, topped with communication?
Click to expand...

You bring up an interesting point, does guy time, which seems to me to be rather unbalanced in most, not all, hetero relationships, constitute a violation of a monogamist relationship? The husband is surely taking away time from what could be relationship time, not to mention which I am, joint care giving time if they happen to have children. I'm going to guess most men would say no but I wonder if the situation was reversed would they feel the same way? More interesting is would the wife even tolerate the same amount of time spent away if her husband's friends happened to be women instead of men?

I know I've tended to pick on men but I do think it takes two to tango and I'm sure many women have the same negative attitudes about their husbands having close friendship with other women.

I'm also curious to know how many of those who are married and participate on the forums at Lit tell their spouses they do so and if not is it because their spouses would consider it some form of cheating? My answer is yes she does know, no she doesn't think it's cheating and she even has my password.
 
Dyslexicea said:
I'd love to read that study, can you please give a link. May I ask has it been replicated and peer reviewed?
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Here's but one of many articles on the subject. This one has links to the studies referenced.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/brain-difference-democrats-republicans

There's even an entry in Wikipedia, but the neutrality of the article is disputed - probably by the same folks who dispute all science that doesn't support their rigorous ideology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_political_orientation
 
Dyslexicea said:
...I'm also curious to know how many of those who are married and participate on the forums at Lit tell their spouses they do so and if not is it because their spouses would consider it some form of cheating?....
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Not married, but in a committed, non-live-in LTR. The fact that we don't live together makes it easier to withhold information. She already thinks I'm a sick fuck, ("pervert" would be her preferred term) and I wouldn't want to cause her even more stress by admitting to my unhealthy obsession with erotica. (The obsession comes and goes, BTW. Next month it'll be songwriting, or building something in the back yard, or some other creative endeavor.) Funny, but that's the excuse all cheaters use - telling her would hurt her feelings. I think the ideal relationship, where partners tell each other absolutely everything, is exactly that - an ideal. I'm sure they exist, but what would the percentage be? 5%? 10%? If I was in an ideal relationship, I could tell her, but I'm not in an ideal relationship, I'm in a dysfunctional relationship, but it's a situation I'm comfortable with, a trade off that benefits us both. Here's the relevant Woody Allen quote:


“It reminds me of that old joke- you know, a guy walks into a psychiatrist's office and says, hey doc, my brother's crazy! He thinks he's a chicken. Then the doc says, why don't you turn him in? Then the guy says, I would but I need the eggs. I guess that's how I feel about relationships. They're totally crazy, irrational, and absurd, but we keep going through it because we need the eggs.”
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You might consider that too much honesty is almost worse than not enough though.

Say for example;

Her; "Does this make my ass look fat?"

Him; "No dear. Your ass doesn't need any help."

or

Him; "Hah. I've still got the body of a youth!"

Her; "Yup. Every time I look at you, I think of that Pamper's commercial. Chubby, bald, and a toothless grin."
 
Dyslexicea said:
I do have strong emotional attachments to some people outside of my marriage, none of which I would consider as being remotely unfaithful. The idea that one person is suppose to fulfill all our emotional needs is ludicrous.
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Agreed, but one would like to think that ones partner would be the first port of call for emotional support.

In my opinion even if that outside relationship becomes somewhat romantic, it only becomes a matter of infidelity if the intent is to act upon that romantic emotion against, as Bramblethorn stated, the consent of the other, or others, involved in a person's relationship.
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Yes, I've said that, cheating is defined within the relationship, it is a relative concept.

I'm going to assume your hetero, so your wife having a emotional non sexual relationship with another woman isn't a problem with you. So why would her having the same type of relationship with a man risk being considered cheating? How is her having a strong, emotional friendship, even including some flirting, with another man being unfaithful to your marriage, if she has no intention of violating your marital arrangement?
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You've made an assumption about the relationship I have with my wife, presumably based on social norms. For the record I'd be fine with my wife having emotionally close relationships with other guys and she doesn't have such a relationship with any women because she finds that most women annoy her. My comments were hypothetical, which is why I said could.

Edited to answer this:
I'm also curious to know how many of those who are married and participate on the forums at Lit tell their spouses they do so and if not is it because their spouses would consider it some form of cheating? My answer is yes she does know, no she doesn't think it's cheating and she even has my password.
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My wife knows, she also helps edit my stories has my passwords for my account here and for my email addresses. She also knows my PIN number and can access my internet banking account.
 
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StrangeLife said:
But today we dont face the same societal constraints, so we are allowed to acknowledge science, even when it goes against "political correctness." And the fact is, that the sexes are quite different in many areas, some of which has nothing to do with stereotypes or aquired behavior. Our way of solving problems are different, our way of resolving conflicts are different, our way of prioritizing ressources are different - and it's not because I played with guns and my sister played with dolls. The gender specific traits will eventually emerge even if the roles are reversed.
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Got a cite for that?

I don't deny the possibility of sex-linked genetic effects on personality (skimming over a long discussion on how the concept of "sex" is not nearly as simple as people like to imagine). But neither am I willing to accept it as The Truth without solid evidence, which is hard to come by - gender expectations are so pervasive that it's pretty much impossible to do any sort of controlled experimentation here.

Even in cases where a rigorous experimental design can detect a difference in the means, it's worth pausing and looking at the size of that effect as compared to variance between individuals. If we run an experiment and find that a woman is 60% likely to give her life to save a child, and a man is only 55% likely... what use is that? It tells us practically nothing about whether any individual man or woman will do it. But the John Grays of the world will happily take that 5% discrepancy and write a fat paperback that profiles all women as Sacrificing and all men as Surviving.

Love is a highly complex concept that combines psychology and bio chemistry and draws on both inherent and aquired traits. We evolved it for a reason - most likely because it promotes cooperation and coexistence which increases our survival rate.
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To some extent, quite likely. But we also invented love, to a great degree - a lot of the modern Western concept of romantic love is due to medieval troubadours writing fiction about Courtly Love.

(BTW, the idea that "we evolved it therefore it must be advantageous to the species" is a logical fallacy; it's quite possible for evolution to promote traits that are disadvantageous to the species. Fisherian runaways are a prime example.)

So when I claim that SG cant separate sex and love it is not because society doesn't want her to nor because misogynistic male chauvinist pigs can't accept a free-spirited woman enjoying life. It is simply because the cave women most likely to survive thousands of years ago were the ones that kept their cavemen around to clobber those pesky sabre tooth tigers for them.
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...and one of the major weaknesses of evo-psych is that so much of it relies on this Just So story of prehistoric life with Warrior Males and Gatherer/Babysitter Females. There's actually a fair bit of evidence that women hunted too.

Acktion said:
You might consider that too much honesty is almost worse than not enough though.

Say for example;

Her; "Does this make my ass look fat?"

Him; "No dear. Your ass doesn't need any help."
Click to expand...

One of the things I love about my partner is that when she asks for my opinion on something like that, it's because she wants my opinion :)

SikFuk said:
Here's but one of many articles on the subject. This one has links to the studies referenced.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/brain-difference-democrats-republicans

There's even an entry in Wikipedia, but the neutrality of the article is disputed - probably by the same folks who dispute all science that doesn't support their rigorous ideology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_political_orientation
Click to expand...

As far as I can tell, the vast majority of that is about a correlation between biological and psychological traits. It doesn't follow that psychological traits are simply caused by biological effects.

If you exercise one part of your brain hard enough and long enough, there will be development effects that may show up on brain scans. For instance, London taxi drivers are required to memorise huge amounts of information about navigation in London, and their hippocampus grows during that process: the mental training causes visible changes to the brain.

So it's certainly interesting to see that conservatives and liberals have differences in brain development, but on its own it doesn't tell us whether that means "brain differences cause political differences", vice versa, or some combination of the two, or that they're both caused by some other common factor.

Again, doing a controlled study to confirm it is almost impossible; the Wikipedia article mentions studies of fraternal vs identical twins, but also acknowledges that it's still not clear whether that methodology really goes far enough in controlling for environmental effects.
 
Bramblethorn said:
...As far as I can tell, the vast majority of that is about a correlation between biological and psychological traits. It doesn't follow that psychological traits are simply caused by biological effects....
Click to expand...

I think the point is, biological factors can be seen as one of many factors that influence psychological traits. It wouldn't be a black or white issue, except perhaps in the case of a sociopath, or a pedophile, or schizophrenic, who's brain is "broken" due to a biological defect. If we take a couple of steps back from sociopath to a plain old everyday asshole, is the asshole behavior caused - in part - by biological factors? I've had to work with a few assholes in my life, (bipoler?) and they seem to do better when they get their medication straightened out. Medication would indicate a biological factor is being addressed.
 
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