What Do women really want

Was reading an article where the author was interviewing guys about the current dating environment in light of the #meto movement. One guy said he was in bed with a woman after they had sex and he reached to caress her breast and she smacked his hand away telling him that she had not consented for him touching her breast. The guy then said he was with a different woman a few months later and kept asking for permission to touch her and she was like why do you keep asking so the two women had completely different definitions of consent.

Other guys said they never make the first move anymore, they let the woman initiate all intimacy. Many said they are even afraid to approach a woman in a bar now.

I am asking this from a dating perspective, not office sexual harassment. So how do women want? Do you want guys to approach you or just be left alone? Do you want guys to initiate a kiss or do you want to be the one that controls when a kiss is appropriate? How do you feel that dating has changed in the last year? I am curious about the current dating environment.

my position on your questions

It does not surprise me much, Stargazer, that not a single Lit person has found it worthwhile yet, to reply to your very thoughtful post. I am doing it to tell you that you've put some good thoughts and questions on the table in your post; questions which deserve to be discussed seriously, IMHO.

I am getting convinced that there are many parallels between the McCarthyism of the 1950s and that so-called "Me Too" movement today.

Perhaps I dare to reply to you, and I dare to draw parallels like that, because I never became a real Lit person yet. And I don't wish to be one either. All this "political correctness" here nauseates me, quite frankly.

I know what I want... I want school shootings to stop.

It's an interesting puzzle. In the SRP scene, most women seem to fantasise about being very submissive and being dominated. Exactly the opposite of all the noise in the media. (of course there is a big difference between fantasy and real life.)

They want your precious seed. Don’t trust them!

That’s the way it’s been with me and my wife, if any “fun” shall we say is to happen I’d have to start it. Not from the stand point of consent but who knows what. But that’s back when we had fun, nothings happened here in over a year now...

I thought they wanted a guy with a job and an ounce of ambition. Oh, and someone that doesn't need their mother to clean up after them. Anything after that is just gravy.

I kind of get why people would be asking this. Maybe I can offer a couple of good questions in return:

You are not saying, I hope, that because we have (almost) removed the option of harassment, men no longer know how to approach women? Surely that's not the only thing on the repertoire. Rules have not changed... unless rape was all there was to flirting and sex.

Also - are all women the same? Your examples would suggest not. How about getting to know her, maybe ask her what HER preferences are? Some women will enjoy your hands all over them; some won't. Frankly, I pity the woman who cringes when a man touches her after sex; she's got a problem I wouldn't want to have - but I don't expect it would be solved by setting a general dating rule that she should like it.

I can't speak for all the women, but personally, I appreciate that men are traditionally the ones to initiate things. It takes balls, and you've got them. I think that's nice. Or else, you're just horny, but it works so what the hell. Does it mean I have to have sex with every guy who approaches? Absolutely not. I think any sane man can understand that. I think any sane man, at least at the instinctive level, understands the difference between assertive and agressive. And I mean, look, if you get a no, just roll with it. It could be a 'no, shithead', or it could just be a 'no, sorry, already got a date tonight'. Either way, being pissy won't improve things for anyone.

I think it's safe to assume a man is still allowed - and welcomed - to talk to a woman respectfully. It's negotiating, only you're not so much talking as dancing. You get close (or maybe she does, whatever). You flirt and see if she flirts back, and if she does, you get closer. Smile and see if she smiles back. If she does, get closer. If she pulls back, there's your answer. If she doesn't, there's your answer again. If she wraps her legs around you - well, I'm sure you can figure that one out on your own. If in doubt at any point, just ask. If she doesn't answer, stay cool, wait a while, then ask again. Rinse repeat until nice and wet. I dunno, doesn't seem that terribly complicated to me - but I guess it is and you asked and that's kinda awesome.

hadruprider said:

It's an interesting puzzle. In the SRP scene, most women seem to fantasise about being very submissive and being dominated. Exactly the opposite of all the noise in the media. (of course there is a big difference between fantasy and real life.)

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Also, you are confusing being submissive with not being allowed a choice.

All are interesting posts. Thanks for your thoughts. I am not in dating scene so I am asking out of curiosity and comparing back to when I was dating.

I believe most men understand consent but from some of things I have read, a guy can get called out for harassment if he tried for a kiss and she is not interested. I can understand men's confusion but I can also understand those women who always seem to have a guy in her face.

I agree with one poster in that maybe more time should be spent getting to know the person before any move is made but some people are not very good in flirting and of course there is those times where a guy might misread a flirting signal.

Seems like things have come Damn if you do and Damn if you don't.

It doesn't seem very complicated to me: women (and indeed men) have the right to say no at any point, for any reason. That is true whether you've just met, whether you've just had sex, whether you've just celebrated your 10th anniversay.

After that sure it gets subtle, because people are different and the world is complex and varied, but that is what we like about it. If you can't cope with complexity then you are going to have difficulty coping with life.

Flirt, and read the signals. But crucially flirt at appropriate times and appropriate places - which largely means not at work, not randomlly walking down the street, not when a woman is sitting in a cafe reading a book, not when she is running with headphones in.

Flirt and if the signal is no then back off.

Flirt and remember that any idea you have that all women are secretly submissive is at once wrong and irrelevant.

StarGazer58 said:

...
Seems like things have come Damn if you do and Damn if you don't.

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I agree that flirting can be difficult and awkward, and that there are women who will abuse their newfound freedom of speech. None of that is new though, is it? Navigating the social world is always tricky, and you always get people, male and female, who are manipulative and unfair. It sucks, but it's not new.

I don't agree that a man is damned either way, that is a very immature view of things. He is damned either way only if rape and celibacy are the only options. The solution to flirting being difficult can not be declaring that one side should not have a choice. The solution to flirting being difficult is all of us learn better ways to flirt. It doesn't mean a guy needs to be a Casanova all of the sudden; he just needs to get the message across. Anyone can smile. Anyone can bring a girl a flower. Anyone can pause before a kiss to make sure she has the room to object if she needs to object. Should he misread something, he can just politely back off and no harm done. It's not that difficult, men do much harder things on daily basis.

I never saw any reason to flirt or try and initiate any kind of relationship with women. If they want me than they're gonna have to tell me that themselves because I've got more important things to do than try and get laid. Ironically though I've never had any trouble getting laid with this mindset.

EquinoxRising said:

I know what I want... I want school shootings to stop.

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have you ever asked yourself, Equinox, why so many school shootings happen in America?

cara2272 said:

I agree that flirting can be difficult and awkward, and that there are women who will abuse their newfound freedom of speech. None of that is new though, is it? Navigating the social world is always tricky, and you always get people, male and female, who are manipulative and unfair. It sucks, but it's not new.

I don't agree that a man is damned either way, that is a very immature view of things. He is damned either way only if rape and celibacy are the only options. The solution to flirting being difficult can not be declaring that one side should not have a choice. The solution to flirting being difficult is all of us learn better ways to flirt. It doesn't mean a guy needs to be a Casanova all of the sudden; he just needs to get the message across. Anyone can smile. Anyone can bring a girl a flower. Anyone can pause before a kiss to make sure she has the room to object if she needs to object. Should he misread something, he can just politely back off and no harm done. It's not that difficult, men do much harder things on daily basis.

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Cara, I honestly believe you made some very good points in your posts above. Which deserve being noted. And I agree with most of them

But do you recognize also, how much of a special role you expect for women, relative to men?

Your views are mainstream thinking, for the considerate part of the male poulation, I dare say. But is that really equality of the genders?

I remember an adage from the early days of (beginning) feminism: "a woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle".

I don't know whether I can really blame any woman, who thinks like that, but is such an attitude not also a bit alarming?

Adder4321 said:

I never saw any reason to flirt or try and initiate any kind of relationship with women. If they want me than they're gonna have to tell me that themselves because I've got more important things to do than try and get laid. Ironically though I've never had any trouble getting laid with this mindset.

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congratulations to you! your attitude deserves replication, I believe

glBock said:

Your views are mainstream thinking, for the considerate part of the male poulation, I dare say. But is that really equality of the genders?

I remember an adage from the early days of (beginning) feminism: "a woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle".

I don't know whether I can really blame any woman, who thinks like that, but is such an attitude not also a bit alarming?

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I'm sorry, I'm not following - what is it that you find alarming?

I'd say "read her body language or pick up on her cues" but any more, that's not realistic. People are so detached from regular human behavior an emotion because of our reliance on technology to convey those things for us so I don't think men of my generation really CAN rely on that.

My partner asked if he could kiss me. It was weird at the time, and i've come to learn that person is on the other end of the spectrum a bit, but it didn't kill the mood.

I think we need to raise girls to speak up for themselves and our boys to listen to girls. Have the self respect to say no (none of this bullshit like in the Aziz Ansari article) and teach boys to respect boundaries. I don't get why this is so difficult.

As far as what women want, everyone is different. 85% of the time, I want the man to initiate. So every woman is different. I don't think there's anything wrong with going in for a kiss and taking it from there. We're raising people to be so cautious they don't connect.

cara2272 said:

I'm sorry, I'm not following - what is it that you find alarming?

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Cara, I wonder whether you really read + understood everything in my relpy to you?

I find it alarming that many women consider it a "state of normalcy" to expect a special role for women in society. Equality but with women being a bit more equal than men.

you can have equality and be different types of people.
I think the Marine Corps has developed this fairly well recently.

Women and men are different but the equality we seek has nothing to do with intimacy. It's economic and political. Body / reproductive autonomy would be nice too.

Women are NOT equal in that we carry children (should we be able or chose to) and disproportionately do the care taking for everyone WHILE working. Read the Second Shift by Arlie Hochschild. We have different medical needs and requirements. We have different economic needs (you try paying for tampons [TAXED!] for 30 years).

However, the equality we want is not to be told "you sound shrill" when we are giving presentations or told to smile more when up for a promotion. It's really not that difficult to grasp.

/end rant

glBock said:

Cara, I wonder whether you really read + understood everything in my relpy to you?

I find it alarming that many women consider it a "state of normalcy" to expect a special role for women in society. Equality but with women being a bit more equal than men.

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I've read it, it just calls for too many leaps and assumptions for me to be sure I'm following your line of thought. I do not remember advocating any sort of special status for women that I wouldn't consider appropriate for men as well.

AveryElle said:

you can have equality and be different types of people.
I think the Marine Corps has developed this fairly well recently.

Women and men are different but the equality we seek has nothing to do with intimacy. It's economic and political. Body / reproductive autonomy would be nice too.

Women are NOT equal in that we carry children (should we be able or chose to) and disproportionately do the care taking for everyone WHILE working. Read the Second Shift by Arlie Hochschild. We have different medical needs and requirements. We have different economic needs (you try paying for tampons [TAXED!] for 30 years).

However, the equality we want is not to be told "you sound shrill" when we are giving presentations or told to smile more when up for a promotion. It's really not that difficult to grasp.

/end rant

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I don't know whether you were replying to me, Avery, but in case you did (since I taked about equality also), I am glad to admit to you that I have understood your point

At least the fact that women take on the bulk of childraising tasks, and 100% of childbearing, may well be a justification for a bit more "equality" in other aspects of life.

Thank you for your comments!

Nothing to do with the topic but I can't be the only one who hears the Spice Girls singing every time I read the title of this thread.

Adder4321 said:

Nothing to do with the topic but I can't be the only one who hears the Spice Girls singing every time I read the title of this thread.

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Thanks. Just what I wanted stuck in my head for the rest of the day

cara2272 said:

Thanks. Just what I wanted stuck in my head for the rest of the day

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If I must suffer, so must everyone else.