Being a woman in geek culture

Dude forms his opinions off tumblr, 'nuff said.

KoPilot said:

I don't know why they're here? The number of places on the internet where they can get their anti-woman drivel validated outnumbers feminist spaces 10 to 1. I guess it's that there's any at all that just really gets their goat.

Hey, kind of like how Womanthology was sexist, amirite? How dare women do things and also be acutely aware that they are women at the same time, etc.

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Disagreeing with the anti-intellectual nonsense that is modern day Western feminism does not equate to being "anti-women."

Again with the ad hominems and now some classic straw man arguments too... makes it easier to cover up the lack of intellectual discourse in your beliefs I guess?

Here, you guys might like these: http://claysad.tumblr.com/post/57615222468/gail-simones-morning-twitter-feed-part-2-2

It's screenshots of Gail Simone's twitter from a couple days ago in which she and some other fine folks were parodying all the shit men in comics say about women creators and characters. I near had an aneurysm from laughing

CANT I JUST HAVE ONE GUY IN COMICS I CAN RECOGNIZE MYSELF IN

KoPilot said:

Kinda reminds me of how the way failure and success is framed:

If women succeed, they're successful people. If they fail, they're failed women.

If men succeed, they're successful men. If they fail, it's because failure is normal and they're human and try, try again.

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Or has the perception become:

If women succeeded: affirmative action. If they fail: sexism.

Human accomplishment obscured by politics? Individuals reduced to group labels?

BrightlyGo said:

Or has the perception become:

If women succeeded: affirmative action. If they fail: sexism.

Human accomplishment obscured by politics? Individuals reduced to group labels?

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You mean politics has never obscured minority accomplishments before? You mean no Asian, black, older woman, Hispanic, Jew, has ever heard "You ___ all look the same to me?"

Well, maybe it's news to white men.

But don't take my word for it. Here's a man who has had some firsthand experience of being reduced by sexism; http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2013/07/12/kim-ogrady-resume-gender-discrimination/

Stella_Omega said:

You mean politics has never obscured minority accomplishments before? You mean no Asian, black, older woman, Hispanic, Jew, has ever heard "You ___ all look the same to me?"

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No, i mean its happening to women, as well as to actual statistical minorities.

You could even say:

Man succeeds: male privilege; man fails: reverse discrimination.

(It doesn't go as far as the last, though: when a man fails, he's usually just a loser.)

Personally, I know for a fact that there are as many women losers as there are men. But they don't get the privilege and responsibility of winning and losing as individuals.

BSSHD said:

I always read about this stuff but I've never seen it myself. In my experience, geeky guys love when they meet geeky girls, they're still somewhat of a rarity (at least compared to geeky guys). They don't really have a reason to hate on them yet they have a lot of reason to like them. I can imagine some particularly socially inept geeks perhaps coming off as creepy, but I can't imagine any just outright discriminating against girls in the geek scene.

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It's easy to miss if you're not the girl, or don't have a girl in your life fuming about it afterwards. You might think guys are just being welcoming and helpful when they assume that those geeky girls they have every reason to like /need that help/, even when they've repeatedly demonstrated that they're as (or more) knowledgeable about the subject or skilled in the activity as the guys in question. Look for it consciously, you'll see it.

But you do bring up a point i'm surprised the OP didn't: geeks make the ah, 'geekplace environment' very uncomfortable for their female counterparts, precisely because they can be so into them, often in very socially inept ways. In the workplace it would be considered sexual harassment.

BrightlyGo said:

It's easy to miss if you're not the girl, or don't have a girl in your life fuming about it afterwards. You might think guys are just being welcoming and helpful when they assume that those geeky girls they have every reason to like /need that help/, even when they've repeatedly demonstrated that they're as (or more) knowledgeable about the subject or skilled in the activity as the guys in question. Look for it consciously, you'll see it.

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What's the intention behind this though? Are they really implying the women are stupid or are they just looking for an excuse to socialise and get to know her better and find common interests?

If I wanted to make better friends with anyone, gender aside, I'd find common interests and discuss them. And I've had other people offer to help me with stuff I'm really good at too. I just don't take it personally because I know it's not really meant that way.

But you do bring up a point i'm surprised the OP didn't: geeks make the ah, 'geekplace environment' very uncomfortable for their female counterparts, precisely because they can be so into them, often in very socially inept ways. In the workplace it would be considered sexual harassment.

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This is a valid point in some cases yes. Not for all geeks, but for some, certainly. After all there is a high correlation of geekiness with autism.

But this is not reflective of any "privilege" nor is it done out of malice. It's just a certain group of people being bad at socialising. You can call those particular people out as being creepy when you spot them for sure, but the problem arises when feminists are quick to paint everyone with the same brush.

In the workplace it would be considered sexual harassment.

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It is sexual harrassment, often in the workplace.

For instance;

The whole "tits or gtfo" thing you get on some corners of the internet is because gender shouldn't matter. That's only brought up when the poster calls herself a "geek girl." You don't see men calling themselves "geek guys" do you? No, because your content should matter, not your gender.

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If gender shouldn't matter why should geek women have to pretend they are men? If gender shouldn't matter, why should we assume that all geeks are male by default?

And even then, it's something you only really come across on imageboards, it's nowhere near as common as you're making out.

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It's obviously something you haven't noticed but why don't you try using female pronouns for a week or two. It will be quite a surprise.

BSSHD said:

I'm assuming by "ignored" you mean you now can't see my posts so this is directed a general comment more than anything.

What I find really amusing about internet feminists is how they have to spend their time in echo chambers. If someone penetrates their bubbles and presents a contrasting opinion they block it out instead of considering any contracting arguments and arguing back.

Not only is this very childish but it speaks volumes about the validity of modern feminists. If your beliefs cannot stand scrutiny to the extent you need to block out dissenting views to protect it then it's not a valid ideology.

That be all.

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It's one thing to have a different opinion, and when you've offered actual proof, being able to be a big enough person to say "Oh, I guess I was wrong. My bad!" and having a different opinion, and when you're offered proof that proves your opinion is false, you stick your fingers in your ears and say "LA LA LA NOT LISTENING!"

You, in this case, are the latter and not the former. If you were interested in actual debate, you wouldn't be sitting here saying that the geek industry isn't sexist, and you wouldn't be disagreeing with Male Privilege as -real- thing. You wouldn't dismiss the extremely serious issues that women face in the Western world just because "IE women in the middle east have it worse."

Sexism isn't a zero sum game. Just because one group of women have it "worse" than women in, say, America, doesn't mean that sexism in America doesn't exist. It does, and there's a mountain of evidence to back it up. It's your choice to not listen, to ignore it, and to tell women that they shouldn't talk about it.

I think if you have a problem with women talking about those sorts of happenstances, this thread might not be a good place for you.

ETA: I love how you use Feminist as an insult. Feminism is, at it's very core, the shocking idea that women are people. Since you seem to disagree with this premise, perhaps you would feel more comfortable in a space where women were "in their place" instead of feeling socially comfortable enough to speak about issues that DIRECTLY concern them?

Stella_Omega said:

Personally, I know for a fact that there are as many women losers as there are men. But they don't get the privilege and responsibility of winning and losing as individuals.

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Exactly!

satindesire said:

It's one thing to have a different opinion, and when you've offered actual proof, being able to be a big enough person to say "Oh, I guess I was wrong. My bad!" and having a different opinion, and when you're offered proof that disproves your opinion as false, you stick your fingers in your ears and say "LA LA LA NOT LISTENING!"

You, in this case, are the latter and not the former. If you were interested in actual debate, you wouldn't be sitting here saying that the geek industry isn't sexist, and you wouldn't be disagreeing with Male Privilege as -real- thing. You wouldn't dismiss the extremely serious issues that women face in the Western world just because "IE women in the middle east have it worse."

Sexism isn't a zero sum game. Just because one group of women have it "worse" than women in, say, America, doesn't mean that sexism in America doesn't exist. It does, and there's a mounting of evidence to back it up. It's your choice to not listen, to ignore it, and to tell women that they shouldn't talk about it.

I think if you have a problem with women talking about those sorts of happenstances, this thread might not be a good place for you.

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I've not yet been presented with absolutely anything I would class as "proof." Writing something in a forum post does not equate to proof of that thing being a fact.

Individual sexists still exist - only a fool would say otherwise - but the structure of our society in the Western world is not sexist and does not give privilege to any one group over another. In this case there are no rights that a man has that a woman does not in our society.

satindesire said:

ETA: I love how you use Feminist as an insult. Feminism is, at it's very core, the shocking idea that women are people. Since you seem to disagree with this premise, perhaps you would feel more comfortable in a space where women were "in their place" instead of feeling socially comfortable enough to speak about issues that DIRECTLY concern them?

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I support feminism in its original form of simply promoting gender equality. What I don't support is the bastardised modern version promoted today.

BSSHD said:

I support feminism in its original form of simply promoting gender equality. What I don't support is the bastardised modern version promoted today.

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So you think there should be limits on gender equality? Where should those limits be? And why do you feel they should be set right there?

Satin-- what do you mean, the master's tools can't dismantle the master's house??! And here I thought sucking up to anti-feminists would actually do some good...

Stella_Omega said:

So you think there should be limits on gender equality? Where should those limits be? And why do you feel they should be set right there?

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Modern feminism isn't supporting equality, it's more of a conspiracy theory. Feminism in its original form was created when women genuinely had fewer rights than men in Western society, so women wanted to correct that and get the same rights for themselves. That was a good movement. But today that goal was long since been achieved so feminists simply find things to be offended about and rattle on about how the first world is oppressing them as they sit in their comfortable houses with their MacBooks going to university to get a degree in "Gender Studies."

This is my issue. If they were complaining about Middle Eastern cultures where women are genuinely being oppressed today then I would be supporting the movement. But they aren't. They focus on either petty issues or made up ones.

BSSHD said:

I support feminism in its original form of simply promoting gender equality. What I don't support is the bastardised modern version promoted today.

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So you're the kind of person that hasn't actually spent time within the Feminist movement to see what third wave feminism is about, you're just basing your ideas around the little you see on the internet/tv/other media.

I've met quite a few men like yourself, who think that modern feminists are just hairy-legged man-hating cat-hoarding feminazis whose "real goals" are female supremacy and "rights without responsibilities". Sometimes, I offer myself as a person who works within the Feminist movement as someone they can talk to to get a REAL idea of what Feminism is like.

I've changed minds, and altered perceptions about modern feminism. A lot of times, those men thought that the vocal minority was the voice of the far more moderate majority, and were so scared off by it that they didn't bother seeking out a deeper understanding or education.

I think that kind of attitude is like saying "All Christians are Westboro Baptist Members" and "All Muslims are Terrorists" and "All Vegans work at PETA". It's not factual, just a product of the media loving to give the mic to the loudest crazy person for ratings.

If you REALLY want to have a real conversation with modern feminists, stick around. If you've made up your mind about Feminism and won't allow yourself to be open minded enough to have your mind changed, don't be surprised when no one wants to talk with you.

BSSHD said:

Modern feminism isn't supporting equality, it's more of a conspiracy theory. Feminism in its original form was created when women genuinely had fewer rights than men in Western society, so women wanted to correct that and get the same rights for themselves. That was a good movement. But today that goal was long since been achieved so feminists simply find things to be offended about and rattle on about how the first world is oppressing them as they sit in their comfortable houses with their MacBooks going to university to get a degree in "Gender Studies."

This is my issue. If they were complaining about Middle Eastern cultures where women are genuinely being oppressed today then I would be supporting the movement. But they aren't. They focus on either petty issues or made up ones.

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Hhhhhh....

Petty issues.

Really? What are the petty issues and made up issues? Can you give examples of those, please?

satindesire said:

So you're the kind of person that hasn't actually spent time within the Feminist movement to see what third wave feminism is about, you're just basing your ideas around the little you see on the internet/tv/other media.

I've met quite a few men like yourself, who think that modern feminists are just hairy-legged man-hating cat-hoarding feminazis whose "real goals" are female supremacy and "rights without responsibilities". Sometimes, I offer myself as a person who works within the Feminist movement as someone they can talk to to get a REAL idea of what Feminism is like.

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Putting words in my mouth once again. I have not made any comments on the personal lifestyles or appearances of feminists at all, nor have I claimed they are trying to fight for female superiority.

I've changed minds, and altered perceptions about modern feminism. A lot of times, those men thought that the vocal minority was the voice of the far more moderate majority, and were so scared off by it that they didn't bother seeking out a deeper understanding or education.

I think that kind of attitude is like saying "All Christians are Westboro Baptist Members" and "All Muslims are Terrorists" and "All Vegans work at PETA". It's not factual, just a product of the media loving to give the mic to the loudest crazy person for ratings.

If you REALLY want to have a real conversation with modern feminists, stick around. If you've made up your mind about Feminism and won't allow yourself to be open minded enough to have your mind changed, don't be surprised when no one wants to talk with you.

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You've not done such a good job so far. I presented arguments, I received insults in the place of counterarguments, and that's about it.

If you are willing to explain to me exactly what rights men have which women do not in first world society then I am willing to listen.

Petty issues.

Really? What are the petty issues and made up issues? Can you give examples of those, please?

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The backbone of feminism, "the patriarchy", does not exist in the first world.

"Rape culture" does not exist outside of prisons.

Look at the "donglegate" link I posted earlier for an example of a petty issue.

Feminism also paints women as helpless victims which I believe to be a subversion of the original cause and actually very misogynistic.

satindesire said:

Sexism isn't a zero sum game. Just because one group of women have it "worse" than women in, say, America, doesn't mean that sexism in America doesn't exist. It does, and there's a mountain of evidence to back it up. It's your choice to not listen, to ignore it, and to tell women that they shouldn't talk about it.

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What's funny is that when someone says that Western women have it made and we shouldn't be complaining because of all those poor, brown third world women, it's pretty safe to assume that they don't actually know the first thing about third world feminism, haven't read the writings of any feminists in developing countries and what it actually means to fight for women's rights elsewhere. Basically, it's racism, Western exceptionalism, and good ol' sexism all wrapped up in a thin veneer of genuine concern.

It's the zero-responsibility card. You get to say you're all for women's right, but gosh darnit, all the real oppressed women are just so far away, and none of them speak English probably, that there's really nothing that I, the enlightened white savior, can actually do for them except tell American feminists that they're wrong.

BSSHD said:

What's the intention behind this though?

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An inept attempt to get laid?

Are they really implying the women are stupid or are they just looking for an excuse to socialise and get to know her better and find common interests?

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Both. When the excuse is to assume ineptitude. It's pretty consistent. Geeky guys don't come up to girl geeks with questions and bask in their erudition, they treat them like clueless nubes.

After all there is a high correlation of geekiness with autism.

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Edit: thought better of touching this one.

But this is not reflective of any "privilege" nor is it done out of malice. It's just a certain group of people being bad at socialising.

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Whether it's done with malice or not doesn't change the fact that it's a negative pattern and should be worked against.

In a way, it's also the broader cultural gender stereotypes invading a sub-culture that should be more resistant to them. Traditional gender roles tell men that they should demonstrate competence (if not superiority) to attract the attention of women. When a geeky guy starts lecturing a geeky girl about stuff she already knows, maybe he's just trying to establish that competence within the context of that shared interest. Which sucks, because geek culture is not exactly macho, and a woman could be forgiven for thinking that she might not have to put up with that kind of bullshit when participating in it.

BrightlyGo said:

An inept attempt to get laid?

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I find this kind of thing amusing. Feminism states that women should not be "slut shamed" and I agree fully. But they then turn around and look down on men who seek sex even though they glorify women for doing the same. Why the double standard?

Whether it's done with malice or not doesn't change the fact that it's a negative pattern and should be worked against.

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I agree.

In a way, it's also the broader cultural gender stereotypes invading a sub-culture that should be more resistant to them. Traditional gender roles tell men that they should demonstrate competence (if not superiority) to attract the attention of women. When a geeky guy starts lecturing a geeky girl about stuff she already knows, maybe he's just trying to establish that competence within the context of that shared interest. Which sucks, because geek culture is not exactly macho, and a woman could be forgiven for thinking that she might not have to put up with that kind of bullshit when participating in it.

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But isn't this just a demonstration of poor socialising skills? It's not uncommon for someone who is bad at socialising to simply talk on and on about their own interests without engaging in proper conversation. It's a symptom of aforementioned autism in fact. And if a socially inept guy is talking to a girl, it's safe to assume he will feel more nervous than if he was chatting to a guy, so his socialising skills will appear even more impaired.

KoPilot said:

What's funny is that when someone says that Western women have it made and we shouldn't be complaining because of all those poor, brown third world women, it's pretty safe to assume that they don't actually know the first thing about third world feminism, haven't read the writings of any feminists in developing countries and what it actually means to fight for women's rights elsewhere. Basically, it's racism, Western exceptionalism, and good ol' sexism all wrapped up in a thin veneer of genuine concern.

It's the zero-responsibility card. You get to say you're all for women's right, but gosh darnit, all the real oppressed women are just so far away, and none of them speak English probably, that there's really nothing that I, the enlightened white savior, can actually do for them except tell American feminists that they're wrong.

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Not really, I'm just examining the facts. In first world societies society shuns sexism and there are widely enforced laws preventing sexist behaviour. In less developed countries this is simply not the case and women can be said to face oppression in these countries.

I'm not insulting a race, I'm pointing out that certain countries have more outdated culture.

BSSHD said:

Putting words in my mouth once again. I have not made any comments on the personal lifestyles or appearances of feminists at all, nor have I claimed they are trying to fight for female superiority.

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You're right, you haven't said any of those things specifically, but you have stated that modern feminism is "bastardized" and every person I've spoken to that's stated the -same exact things- that you have have stated the things that I've mentioned. If you don't like being thrown under the bus due to stereotypes, perhaps you shouldn't do it to us, then, eh?

BSSHD said:

You've not done such a good job so far. I presented arguments, I received insults in the place of counterarguments, and that's about it.

If you are willing to explain to me exactly what rights men have which women do not in first world society then I am willing to listen.

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You didn't present arguments, actually.

You said:

I can't take anything that uses the term "Male Privilege" seriously. It makes me feel like I'm on one of those awful Tumblr blogs.--IE. "Male Privilege isn't "REAL".

You said:

I'd disagree it's an "actual serious thing" in the Western world. In Middle Eastern cultures it certainly is, but not in today's Western society. (And) No I just think we should focus on real problems. And I'm sorry but anyone who lives in the first world and claims to be "oppressed" in this day and age needs a bit of a reality check. --IE. Women in the middle east have it worse, so sexism in America doesn't exist!

You said:

As for the other stuff you're talking about, I've not seen evidence of it. (and) From I've seen the geeky mainstream media, it's all very gender neutral.--IE I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist!

You said:

If you're able to work in those industries as a woman they can't be too badly sexist.--IE If you aren't being openly discriminated against specifically because you're a woman (which is illegal and would cost people their jobs, I might remind you) sexism in the geek industry can't exist.

You said:

Are you saying they can't be? Do you think someone should police fictionland to make sure feminists don't get offended? As someone on an erotica forum I would have thought you'd be a little more open minded. Besides, you know who really gets off on rape fantasies? Women.--IE Some women think it's sexy, so it can't be sexist!

Those aren't arguments. Those are logical fallacies where you fully admit to "not seeing", but instead of LISTENING to us when we say "Hey, these things happen and are problems" you're going..."NOPE. I don't see it so it doesn't exist!"

That's not the fertile ground ready for a debate. These are the words of a man who is uneducated and does not WANT to be educated.

You answer my questions FIRST and then I'll answer yours. What are the "petty arguments and made up arguments" that feminists complain about?

BSSHD said:

I find this kind of thing amusing. Feminism states that women should not be "slut shamed" and I agree fully. But they then turn around and look down on men who seek sex even though they glorify women for doing the same. Why the double standard?

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Because it's in response to a double-standard. Traditional society maintains that women who openly express their sexuality and bag multiple partners are 'sluts' (and that there's something wrong with that), but that men who do the same are 'studs' (and that's awesome, if not exactly respectable). Countering that means applying the opposite double-standard: encouraging women to get down with their hot selves, while simultaneously getting men to keep it in their pants.

Yeah, it's kinda like two-wrongs make a right - until you realize that it's actually four wrongs - but if there's some other way of undoing eons of cultural programming to get men and women to treat eachother like people, i'd love to hear it.

But isn't this just a demonstration of poor socialising skills? It's not uncommon for someone who is bad at socialising to simply talk on and on about their own interests without engaging in proper conversation. It's a symptom of aforementioned autism in fact. And if a socially inept guy is talking to a girl, it's safe to assume he will feel more nervous than if he was chatting to a guy, so his socialising skills will appear even more impaired.

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No, if it were just that, if there were no gender factor, then they'd be ineptly feigning ignorance ("This is so interesting, tell me more! Oh! I never thought of it that way, you're sooo insightful!") as often as ineptly asserting false superiority.