Being a woman in geek culture

[satindesire]

So just in case anyone has missed the recent goings-on on the interbone about women in geek culture, I'm going to link a few articles/pages that will brush y'all up on what's happening lately.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/07/26/who-gets-to-be-a-geek-anyone-who-wants-to-be/

http://www.examiner.com/article/tim...-facts-women-are-and-have-long-been-geeks-too

http://www.dailyillini.com/opinion/columns/article_90391094-4347-11e2-8805-001a4bcf6878.html

http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2011/11/nerds-and-male-privilege/

As a woman who was introduced to geek culture while still wearing diapers, I feel frustrated that my "geek cred" has been questioned simply due to my gender. I feel frustrated that I cannot identify with many female characters due to their one-dimensional and heavily sexualized portrayals. I feel frustrated that when I speak about this, my concerns are outright dismissed as "hysterical", "irrational", or being told that the way women are portrayed in mainstream geek culture is "just part of the way it is and it's not going to change because mostly men are geeks".

What are your thoughts about this?

Have you experienced sexism in geek culture due to your gender?

How do YOU deal with it?

 

[Noor]

unfortunately

Same as it always was.

 

[BrightlyGo]

mainstream geek culture

i'm having trouble with this concept.

But, yeah, it's ridiculous the way geeks get all sexist. The things geeks purport to value - intellect, in-group knowledge, mad tech skillz and so forth (depending on the kind of geekiness involved) - are not exactly exclusive to males.

Sometimes i think it's partly in reaction to how geeky guys are perceived/treated by women, though. A 30yo virgin just might harbor some resentment towards the gender that's been savagely rejecting him ever since puberty. Let's face it, 'Revenge of the Nerds' notwithstanding, we are not exactly sex symbols.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oh, darn it... wish I'd pity fucked every asshole who came my way in highschool. I hate it when I turn out to be responsible for the bad treatment visited upon myself and every other person like me. How could I have been so remiss?

 

[satindesire]

i'm having trouble with this concept.

But, yeah, it's ridiculous the way geeks get all sexist. The things geeks purport to value - intellect, in-group knowledge, mad tech skillz and so forth (depending on the kind of geekiness involved) - are not exactly exclusive to males.

Sometimes i think it's partly in reaction to how geeky guys are perceived/treated by women, though. A 30yo virgin just might harbor some resentment towards the gender that's been savagely rejecting him ever since puberty. Let's face it, 'Revenge of the Nerds' notwithstanding, we are not exactly sex symbols.

Yeah, I totally realize the weird oxymoronic value of "mainstream geek culture". What I mean specifically by this is the rise in popularity of "superhero" movies ala The Dark Knight series, Superman movies, The Avengers, Iron Man...the rising popularity of Anime, Cosplay, and Graphic Novels, and the popularity of gaming and how gamers are becoming a larger and larger, and more varied, population.

I specifically think that geek culture is meant to be a haven. It is more widely socially acceptable now to be geeky but we are still outcast due to our passions and hobbies, and a lot of people are still mistreated for being geeks. To outcast women just on the basis of being female to me is total hypocrisy, because geeks are outcast from mainstream society just for being geeks.

I believe that female geeks have a really difficult time being geeks...because not only are we apart from mainstream culture but we also find it difficult if not downright impossible to be accepted in geek culture...just by the grace of our gender. To have to "prove" oneself as a "real geek" just by the grace of our gender, to have to have "real nerd cred" and have to pass arbitrary "checks" to be considered a "real" geek doesn't really happen to male geeks. And conventionally attractive women with good social skills that don't fit the mold of the "traditional" geek have even more suspicion and dislike heaped upon them, with the biggest trope of "Just "ACTING" like a geek for male attention!" being the norm.

 

[BrightlyGo]

Oh, darn it... wish I'd pity fucked every asshole who came my way in highschool. I hate it when I turn out to be responsible for the bad treatment visited upon myself and every other person like me. How could I have been so remiss?

lol.

Not trying to imply that two wrongs make a right, though - the girls giving geeky boys PTSD are almost certainly not the same ones they take it out on later. Just pointing out that there's stuff going on.

I believe that female geeks have a really difficult time being geeks...because not only are we apart from mainstream culture but we also find it difficult if not downright impossible to be accepted in geek culture...just by the grace of our gender. To have to "prove" oneself as a "real geek" just by the grace of our gender, to have to have "real nerd cred" and have to pass arbitrary "checks" to be considered a "real" geek doesn't really happen to male geeks.

Yep, you see that all the time. My wife & i are into a geeky hobby or two, and guys act shocked when She knows what She's doing - and really don't know how to handle it when they realize she knows something better than they do. They'll even ask me a question, even though i'll just sit there while She answers. Sometimes She revels in it, and sometimes it gets to Her. And, sometimes (all too infrequently) a few guys will even realize that they /don't need to be shocked/ anymore, and just accept Her as a fellow hobbyist who 'gets it.'

(Sorry if that's a little vague, i'm afraid the specifics might 'out' me...)

And conventionally attractive women with good social skills that don't fit the mold of the "traditional" geek have even more suspicion and dislike heaped upon them.

Having neither, myself, i can't pretend to have a lot of sympathy for anyone - of any gender - who's blessed with both good social skills and conventionally good looks. And, when you think about it, a non-outcast seeking acceptance in an 'outcast' sub-culture /is/ suspicious.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Sometimes i think it's partly in reaction to how geeky guys are perceived/treated by women, though. A 30yo virgin just might harbor some resentment towards the gender that's been savagely rejecting him ever since puberty. Let's face it, 'Revenge of the Nerds' notwithstanding, we are not exactly sex symbols.

If a guy is still an unwilling virgin/near-virgin at the age of 30, it might be time to start thinking that maybe it's not because every single woman he's ever met is a heartless bitch who'd rather date jerks. Maybe he needs to look at the one thing that's common to all those interactions. But most people will pick resentment ahead of self-examination.

 

[satindesire]

Yep, you see that all the time. My wife & i are into a geeky hobby or two, and guys act shocked when She knows what She's doing - and really don't know how to handle it when they realize she knows something better than they do. They'll even ask me a question, even though i'll just sit there while She answers. Sometimes She revels in it, and sometimes it gets to Her. And, sometimes (all too infrequently) a few guys will even realize that they /don't need to be shocked/ anymore, and just accept Her as a fellow hobbyist who 'gets it.'

(Sorry if that's a little vague, i'm afraid the specifics might 'out' me...)

I totally get what you're saying.

Having neither, myself, i can't pretend to have a lot of sympathy for anyone - of any gender - who's blessed with both good social skills and conventionally good looks. And, when you think about it, a non-outcast seeking acceptance in an 'outcast' sub-culture /is/ suspicious.

Conventional attractiveness didn't buy me a pass to a totally smooth life. I won't try and claim that I'm some kind of victim of prettiness because that's patently ridiculous and I'm aware and embracing of my privilege and willing to examine what life has given me because of the grace of my genetics. That being said, being pretty in no way affected my geekiness, other than my ability to be accepted by geek culture. Conventionally unattractive people don't turn to geekiness because they're unattractive, nor do conventionally attractive people turn away from geekiness because they're attractive. I think that's a really harmful stereotype that fuels part of the problems geek culture is having today.

If a guy is still an unwilling virgin/near-virgin at the age of 30, it might be time to start thinking that maybe it's not because every single woman he's ever met is a heartless bitch who'd rather date jerks. Maybe he needs to look at the one thing that's common to all those interactions. But most people will pick resentment ahead of self-examination.

UGH and that brings up ANOTHER issue prevalent in geek culture...The 'Nice Guy/Friendzone' crap. I gotta dedicate an entire post about that later, because it bears speaking about.

 

[BSSHD]

I always read about this stuff but I've never seen it myself. In my experience, geeky guys love when they meet geeky girls, they're still somewhat of a rarity (at least compared to geeky guys). They don't really have a reason to hate on them yet they have a lot of reason to like them. I can imagine some particularly socially inept geeks perhaps coming off as creepy, but I can't imagine any just outright discriminating against girls in the geek scene.

Although regarding the OP, I can't take anything that uses the term "Male Privilege" seriously. It makes me feel like I'm on one of those awful Tumblr blogs.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I can't take any man seriously who dismisses male privilege, and I am not one of those "awful tumblr blogs." It's an actual serious thing.

"

Not trying to imply that two wrongs make a right, though - the girls giving geeky boys PTSD are almost certainly not the same ones they take it out on later. Just pointing out that there's stuff going on.

Well, I' m glad you're not trying to imply that. Because geek girls get a lot of shit growing up as well, and then they get more from the men who should be their allies. Just pointing that out. The girls get wrongs from mainstream boys and then they get wrongs from geek boys.

 

[BSSHD]

I can't take any man seriously who dismisses male privilege, and I am not one of those "awful tumblr blogs." It's an actual serious thing.

I'm not saying you are, I'm just saying that's the only place I really see it discussed, and those blogs are like a magnet for irrational nonsense and shunning of intellectual debate, so the phrase just reminds me of that.

I'd disagree it's an "actual serious thing" in the Western world. In Middle Eastern cultures it certainly is, but not in today's Western society. But that's just my opinion of course.

 

[KoPilot]

Rape and death threats (just for daring to speak) aren't serious? Sexual harassment isn't serious? Protecting predators who also happen to be geeky heroes or organizers isn't serious? Keeping women out of entire industries because of "brogramming" culture, because of sexist interviews, because just being in those kinds of workplaces triggers stereotype threat, thus "proving" women's inferiority when they get nervous and fumble isn't serious? The fact that studies about women's inferiority or inherent domestic tendencies still get more funding than, say, the complexity of female sexuality, isn't serious?

It's not a competition. Empathy isn't a finite currency. By your logic we'd need to find the saddest, most oppressed person on the face of the earth before we could do anything. If you have a guilty conscience, then that's your problem.

--

At any rate, I'm neck deep in two different geeky industries right now, both notorious for their sexism and dismissal of women. (I co-opt the label "woman" during these kinds of discussions because I'm read and treated as one, and that geek awareness/treatment of trans* people is generally even more abysmal.)

In gaming, there are some things that would go a long way to fixing sexism and cissexism rampant in these companies, the first being that more publishers and developers need to implement HR departments. Most of them don't have any such structure in place to even report harassment, let alone have the formal opportunity to develop workplace tolerance policies and programs. I don't know how to change this, but it absolutely needs to be changed like, yesterday.

In both comics and games, as far as perception of audience goes, women and minorities are still considered "risky" demographics for some fucking completely fantastical reasons. Studies have been made that show women spend more money than men do on goddamn fucking video games. We are half of the attendance at pop culture conventions. We aspire to be artists and writers in the same numbers as men-- we are half of the pipeline. But when you've got guys like Dan Didio, Frank Miller, and Scott Campbell dominating the mainstream industry, those are guys and those are works that you really don't want to touch with a ten foot pole. Who the hell wants to work in a field where creators still get excited over rape scenes, where women are brutally murdered in page 10 just so you can show her man reacting to it? These are men who still honestly think those are good stories. That those are the stories they'd want to read, and those are the stories their audiences want to read. When you think of it like that, of course working for one of the big two suddenly sounds like throwing yourself to the sharks and loses appeal. You fall out of the pipeline.

And then there's the fake geek girl bullshit. Girls and women are put through the ringer to "prove" that they're as savvy as the guys are. Men are rarely ever subjected to this. And if the women "fail" these tests, they're subjected to harassment. If they "win", then they're either the token pair of tits, or they're expected to act like one of the boys and take part of their lewd behavior because putting down women is what geeks are supposed to do, even if they're women themselves.

Anyways, I could go on about this forever.

 

[BSSHD]

Rape and death threats (just for daring to speak) aren't serious? Sexual harassment isn't serious? Protecting predators who also happen to be geeky heroes or organizers isn't serious? Keeping women out of entire industries because of "brogramming" culture, because of sexist interviews, because just being in those kinds of workplaces triggers stereotype threat, thus "proving" women's inferiority when they get nervous and fumble isn't serious? The fact that studies about women's inferiority or inherent domestic tendencies still get more funding than, say, the complexity of female sexuality, isn't serious?

While I'm aware of the recent Twitter threat story, which was of course bad, that's trolls for you isn't it? Internet trolls target lots of people and do it solely to get an emotional reaction. It's not like women are the only victims of trolling.

As for the other stuff you're talking about, I've not seen evidence of it. I have however seen crap like this where a woman was able to get two guys fired from their jobs just for making a "dongle" joke. Luckily that woman later lost her job too. Good riddance.

It's not a competition. Empathy isn't a finite currency. By your logic we'd need to find the saddest, most oppressed person on the face of the earth before we could do anything. If you have a guilty conscience, then that's your problem.

No I just think we should focus on real problems. And I'm sorry but anyone who lives in the first world and claims to be "oppressed" in this day and age needs a bit of a reality check.

At any rate, I'm neck deep in two different geeky industries right now, both notorious for their sexism and dismissal of women. (I co-opt the label "woman" during these kinds of discussions because I'm read and treated as one, and that geek awareness/treatment of trans* people is generally even more abysmal.)

In gaming, there are some things that would go a long way to fixing sexism and cissexism rampant in these companies, the first being that more publishers and developers need to implement HR departments. Most of them don't have any such structure in place to even report harassment, let alone have the formal opportunity to develop workplace tolerance policies and programs. I don't know how to change this, but it absolutely needs to be changed like, yesterday.

If you're able to work in those industries as a woman they can't be too badly sexist.

In both comics and games, as far as perception of audience goes, women and minorities are still considered "risky" demographics for some fucking completely fantastical reasons. Studies have been made that show women spend more money than men do on goddamn fucking video games. We are half of the attendance at pop culture conventions. We aspire to be artists and writers in the same numbers as men-- we are half of the pipeline. But when you've got guys like Dan Didio, Frank Miller, and Scott Campbell dominating the mainstream industry, those are guys and those are works that you really don't want to touch with a ten foot pole.

From I've seen the geeky mainstream media, it's all very gender neutral.

Who the hell wants to work in a field where creators still get excited over rape scenes, where women are brutally murdered in page 10 just so you can show her man reacting to it? These are men who still honestly think those are good stories.

Are you saying they can't be? Do you think someone should police fictionland to make sure feminists don't get offended? As someone on an erotica forum I would have thought you'd be a little more open minded. Besides, you know who really gets off on rape fantasies? Women.

That those are the stories they'd want to read, and those are the stories their audiences want to read. When you think of it like that, of course working for one of the big two suddenly sounds like throwing yourself to the sharks and loses appeal. You fall out of the pipeline.

I don't get this line of argument at all for the reasons I explained above. I also don't see rape and women getting murdered in a lot of mainstream stuff. But then in all fairness I'm far more of a computer geek than a comic one.

And then there's the fake geek girl bullshit. Girls and women are put through the ringer to "prove" that they're as savvy as the guys are. Men are rarely ever subjected to this. And if the women "fail" these tests, they're subjected to harassment. If they "win", then they're either the token pair of tits, or they're expected to act like one of the boys and take part of their lewd behavior because putting down women is what geeks are supposed to do, even if they're women themselves.

Not seen any of this either. The only time girls are called fake geeks is if it looks like they don't know what they're talking about. Guys who don't know what they're talking about are likely to be insulted too.

The whole "tits or gtfo" thing you get on some corners of the internet is because gender shouldn't matter. That's only brought up when the poster calls herself a "geek girl." You don't see men calling themselves "geek guys" do you? No, because your content should matter, not your gender. And even then, it's something you only really come across on imageboards, it's nowhere near as common as you're making out.

Anyways, I could go on about this forever.

Certainly seems like it

 

[KoPilot]

Yeahhh you don't really know what you're talking about.

Kind of lost me at "well, you're not getting sexually harassed at work, can't be too bad, right"?

 

[BSSHD]

Barely respond to one point in an attempt to dismiss all of them. Great debating skillz

If an industry was actually truly sexist you wouldn't be working in it.

 

[KoPilot]

No, I'm just not interested in debating someone who's wrong on all of their points and already dead-set on telling all the wimminz to shut up and be happy with not being raped and murdered (because with harassment, you chose to get hurt).

 

[BSSHD]

Yet you can't be bothered to explain why that supposedly is.

 

[KoPilot]

No, I really can't. That's how worthless your position is.

 

[BSSHD]

"I can't develop an actual intellectual argument against your position so I'm going to resort to childish insults."

Looks like this discussion is over then

 

[KoPilot]

No, just for you.

Ignored.

 

[BSSHD]

I'm assuming by "ignored" you mean you now can't see my posts so this is directed a general comment more than anything.

What I find really amusing about internet feminists is how they have to spend their time in echo chambers. If someone penetrates their bubbles and presents a contrasting opinion they block it out instead of considering any contracting arguments and arguing back.

Not only is this very childish but it speaks volumes about the validity of modern feminists. If your beliefs cannot stand scrutiny to the extent you need to block out dissenting views to protect it then it's not a valid ideology.

That be all.

 

[Stella_Omega]

There are hundreds of ways in which male privilege is evident in this society. Those lists are available everywhere on the internet, and you must have come across more than one version since you know so much about feminism.

if you want to air an opinion that is so dismissive and ignorant, it makes people not want to waste their time talking to you.

You can pretend it's feminism's fault that you can't get your disrespect respected, if it makes you feel happier.

 

[BSSHD]

There are hundreds of ways in which male privilege is evident in this society. Those lists are available everywhere on the internet, and you must have come across more than one version since you know so much about feminism.

I've seen them all over Tumblr. They're hilarious.

if you want to air an opinion that is so dismissive and ignorant, it makes people not want to waste their time talking to you.

You can pretend it's feminism's fault that you can't get your disrespect respected, if it makes you feel happier.

"Disagree with us? We'll just use ad hominem attacks to avoid making any real arguments!" Brilliant.

 

[KoPilot]

There are hundreds of ways in which male privilege is evident in this society. Those lists are available everywhere on the internet, and you must have come across more than one version since you know so much about feminism.

if you want to air an opinion that is so dismissive and ignorant, it makes people not want to waste their time talking to you.

You can pretend it's feminism's fault that you can't get your disrespect respected, if it makes you feel happier.

I don't know why they're here? The number of places on the internet where they can get their anti-woman drivel validated outnumbers feminist spaces 10 to 1. I guess it's that there's any at all that just really gets their goat.

Hey, kind of like how Womanthology was sexist, amirite? How dare women do things and also be acutely aware that they are women at the same time, etc.

 

[KoPilot]

Kinda reminds me of how the way failure and success is framed:

If women succeed, they're successful people. If they fail, they're failed women.

If men succeed, they're successful men. If they fail, it's because failure is normal and they're human and try, try again.