Wellesley College: Women? or Womyn?

I found this article on my Tumblr about an issue facing all-women colleges in the US: trans men allowed to enrol and remain as men in a female only space.

One paragraph I found a little bothersome ( you'll understand my English power of understatement there ) was this:

"Others are wary of opening Wellesley’s doors too quickly — including one of Wellesley’s trans men, who asked not to be named because he knew how unpopular his stance would be. He said that Wellesley should accept only trans women who have begun sex-changing medical treatment or have legally changed their names or sex on their driver’s licenses or birth certificates. “I know that’s a lot to ask of an 18-year-old just applying to college,” he said, “but at the same time, Wellesley needs to maintain its integrity as a safe space for women. What if someone who is male-bodied comes here genuinely identified as female, and then decides after a year or two that they identify as male — and wants to stay at Wellesley? How’s that different from admitting a biological male who identifies as a man? Trans men are a different case; we were raised female, we know what it’s like to be treated as females and we have been discriminated against as females. We get what life has been like for women.”

Oh great - here we go again. I'm not surprised that a trans man should take the line that gender is defined by genitals, because that fits well with most cis-gender men ( not Litsters obviously ! ). Not only is it inaccurate, it's bigoted.

Hmmm... maybe this year I'll decide to ID as a man? It'll be a nice change. FFS

And fianlly, thanks very much Mr Trans Man: trans women are not safe to be around. Another fucking myth endorsed by a man. Not surprised he kept his ID secret

What if someone who is male-bodied comes here genuinely identified as female, and then decides after a year or two that they identify as male

Or, or, what if they let a trans woman in, and it turns out she has Ebola and she infects the entire college before she gets diagnosed? Or what if she's really a T-1000 sent back from the future to assassinate one of the other students? It's just too much of a risk. Dust off and nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

Trans men are a different case; we were raised female, we know what it’s like to be treated as females and we have been discriminated against as females. We get what life has been like for women.”

Sad thing is that none of that necessarily stops trans guys from being misogynists or predators. Some people react to that sort of experience with "I'd better stop that from happening to anybody else" and others react with "I'd better direct that at other people so it doesn't happen to me again".

Good piece on that problem here: http://www.therainbowhub.com/trans-men-and-misogyny/

This has been round for a while now... I can never stop laughing. Leftest can't have their perfect utopia...

Wellesley is an ALL Woman's College...Radical leftest College, BUT, traditionally, Woman only. When you're a Man, then decide you're a woman...weather you've had a Remove-A-Dick-From-me surgery or NOT....DNA tells us ..You are a man. (you can't change DNA*).. hence YOU ARE NOT WELCOME AT Wellesley. You can't just cross-dress then apply as Dani, telling them, you've begun the process of becoming a woman...LET ME IT...



Broads are Wellesley, are upset. How on earth can a Tranny, have any knowledge of what it's like to be a woman...
This is so fucking funny...Even FemiNazi groups are fighting with boy-girls... You couldn't write this in Hollyweird....Only in America, oNly in American Leftest Politics

So it goes..Now a Leftest tradition is under attack.. What would make this great...Tranny...then announces s'he is a reborn Christian and now staunch Conservative...man that would FUCK THEM RIGHT UP

I know some are going to go radical on me about my comments...so be it. Fact remain, This is an All (natural) woman's college...You've chosen a new gender...go to Cal Berkeley or some other off the charts wacky university

one more interesting point...have you noticed, ACLU is miles and miles away form this...

* you are born x or Y...not eh, um, maybe, well I don't know..let me think about it.

Kilippert - I'm not going to go radical on you: you are welcome to your view, however wrong it is with regarding gender id. I can't help but think that you've chosen to use the word Tranny to be deliberately provocative ie Trolling. So I'll just ignore you. Then we're both happy: you've made your troll and I can pass on byeeee *waves*

Bad form, Klippert. Bad form.

stickygirl said:

"What if someone who is male-bodied comes here genuinely identified as female, and then decides after a year or two that they identify as male — and wants to stay at Wellesley? How’s that different from admitting a biological male who identifies as a man? Trans men are a different case; we were raised female, we know what it’s like to be treated as females and we have been discriminated against as females. We get what life has been like for women.”

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As far as the article goes, only 4 paragraphs address trans women at all. If the college allows (trans) men, then it seems only fair that trans women should be allowed in, either way you reason it. The first part of the quote could apply equally well to the student who made it. The 'different case' afterthought smacks of TERF dogma.

klippert said:

Wellesley is an ALL Woman's College...Radical leftest College, BUT, traditionally, Woman only. When you're a Man, then decide you're a woman...weather you've had a Remove-A-Dick-From-me surgery or NOT....DNA tells us ..You are a man... you are born x or Y...not eh, um, maybe, well I don't know..let me think about it.

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I understand why transphobes love to invoke "DNA" in this type of discussion, but if you're going to do that, you really want to learn a bit more about DNA first so you can avoid looking foolish.

The interaction between DNA and physical sex is a lot messier than most people realise. There are people with XX chromosomes who are born with penises; there are people with XY who are born with vaginas. (Some are even fertile.) There are people born with a mix of XX and XY chromosomes, or other configurations like XXY etc etc.

You can't be sure of a baby's DNA just by looking at them. Wellesley doesn't DNA-test its applicants last time I looked, and even a single DNA test may not reveal things like XX/XY chimerism. So 99.99% of people go through their entire lives without ever confirming their DNA status.

(Of course, I've never met a transphobe who changed their views after learning that DNA is less straightforward than the simplified version they remember from high school, because the people who say "it's DNA" don't really mean it; it's just an attempt to dress up their gut prejudices in the language of science.)

Well, without getting too bogged down in DNA ( there are incidentally about 70,000 people in USA who are XXY and 20k, neither XX nor XY ) one of the issues that brought it to the media was their opening sing-song America is Beautiful in which traditionally the college has sung
"...God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with sisterhood
From sea to shining sea!"
The troublesome trans men want this change to brotherhood, whilst other want siblinghood in an attempt, presumably, to avoid the issue.

None of this cuts much ice with me, because I'm not sure I like the idea of single sex colleges. What rankles me is the attitude of the few trans men students who feel they can have their cake and eat it: they can have the benefits of an all-women college but want to change the ethos of it to suit themselves.
Gotta hand it to them - they've learnt their patriarchy fast!

stickygirl said:

What rankles me is the attitude of the few trans men students who feel they can have their cake and eat it: they can have the benefits of an all-women college but want to change the ethos of it to suit themselves.
Gotta hand it to them - they've learnt their patriarchy fast!

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Yeah, I can see arguments for letting a trans guy stay on in an otherwise-female college as a special case, but if I was that guy I would NOT be appointing myself as gatekeeper. Reminds me of people here who arrived in the country as refugees and then want to stop anybody else from getting in the same way :-/

Trans folk canbe transphobic. It's perfectly possible to hate what you were, or what you are.
Likewise any trans man who is predatory or misogynistic was the same way when he lived as a woman.That shit was in him long before he transitioned.

There are predatory, misogynistic trans women out there. None of these are the rule. The vast majority of us, by and large, prefer a quiet life. But it happens.

There are people who are pretty sure that they are a different gender, and who even undergo transition, but who never leave off the trappings of their previous role.

I personally know three people who transitioned and then de transitioned, much to the dismay and disgust of the political/gender purists within their circles.

So fucking what? Their gender is not a spectator sport. And when you really think about it, women's colleges like Wellesley formed to succor those who are victims of gender-based bigotry, and nowadays that includes a number of of groups that weren't so visible back in the day.
Misogyny affects everyone.

I suspect that, as social stigma is eased, more people will experiment with transitioning. I don't see any harm in that, so long as it's before surgery or any irreversible medical changes, but the focus should remain on the individual: what is right for them. Transitioning is hard, it is traumatic, so I doubt people will make the change on a whim…. I certainly hope not.

Maybe there is less demand for single-sex colleges in the UK because, being a smaller country, there is a smaller volume of chauvanism. I'm not worried about all-women colleges, but the all-male ones? I'll button my lip there before I say something I regret.

I notice how a lot of blogs and comments focus on how difficult it is transitioning, as though to warn people off from trying. "I'm as hard as nails and I can cope" puts out the wrong message, as though by transitioning, you've proved how tough you are. People learn to cope as they go along and tackle each new problem and trans folk are no different to anyone else. How easy or difficult it is shouldn't be part of the decision making process. It is who you are and where you are going which is paramount. That's why good therapy from the very start is so important.

stickygirl said:

Maybe there is less demand for single-sex colleges in the UK because, being a smaller country, there is a smaller volume of chauvanism. I'm not worried about all-women colleges, but the all-male ones? I'll button my lip there before I say something I regret.

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The truth about being a gay 16-year-old at an all boys boarding school

I rather suspect that it would be worse for trans people.

haurni said:

The truth about being a gay 16-year-old at an all boys boarding school

I rather suspect that it would be worse for trans people.

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I went to a coed private school and I can corroborate what that young man has said, though I would modify it by saying a Welsh school is more likely to be homophobic. Let me head off Welsh detractors, because I know the mindset of Welsh schools, where macho has always been triumphed. Show me it isn't. We used to play some Welsh schools in sport and we always got stuffed.

I was faced with a blunt option: do not display any sign of being trans at school and you can finish your education here. At the time I wasn't too upset by that, because private schools are a bit of a dream world and so insulated from the outside world, that I had nothing against which to make comparison. It was a happy school, despite my own situation and I had a timetable to work towards. I wasn't even sure if I was just gay until I started therapy when I was 15. I was able to start hormones in my final year, when I was seventeen, though we didn't tell the school. I didn't transition until my gap year before Uni, though I dressed at home.

Looking back now I am angry and I admire the writer for his courage: he is obviously better informed and far more worldly-wise than I was at his age. Had I had the support of the school, I could have started hormones much sooner and avoided the T-poison. I wouldn't expect private schools to change anytime soon - they really are 'the institution' populated by teachers from Oxbridge with a mission to produce tomorrow's leaders. Even our chaplain was ex-army!

Perhaps one should 'regrette rien' and on balance, I am grateful for what I got from the school in terms of its pastoral care, because it was a stable environment and I knew of no bullying. I don't keep in touch with anyone because the kids came from all over the country, so when school was out, people just vanished into thin air. Back in my home town I only know of one other person who attended the same school. Compared to the state system, that is weird, because it is drawn from a local population and people stay in the same area.

( on a side note: one never admits to going to private school. People might guess because of ones Queens English accent, but you keep it quiet or at least I did at Uni )

But times are changing and like any private business, I suspect that one or other private school will move into the 21st century and realise there is a potential market in providing a modern environment and care for LGBT kids. Quite how they'll sell it their governors remains to be seen.

Good for him: it's a well written piece and deserves an A+ for coherence and using long words proper like.

Nice response article in Advocate

Maybe it's just plain time for single-gender colleges to go by the wayside.

desertslave said:

Maybe it's just plain time for single-gender colleges to go by the wayside.

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In the UK, single-sex schools and colleges are in decline. Many traditionally women-only colleges are admitting men, sometimes only a few, but with the UK's universities, while an individual college might still be single sex, university lectures can be co-educational.

Locally we have single-sex male and single-sex female grammar schools BUT in their final years (16 to 18) the schools can and do mix the sexes for particular subjects if there aren't sufficent students at one school.

stickygirl said:

I found this article on my Tumblr about an issue facing all-women colleges in the US: trans men allowed to enrol and remain as men in a female only space.

One paragraph I found a little bothersome ( you'll understand my English power of understatement there ) was this:

"Others are wary of opening Wellesley’s doors too quickly — including one of Wellesley’s trans men, who asked not to be named because he knew how unpopular his stance would be. He said that Wellesley should accept only trans women who have begun sex-changing medical treatment or have legally changed their names or sex on their driver’s licenses or birth certificates. “I know that’s a lot to ask of an 18-year-old just applying to college,” he said, “but at the same time, Wellesley needs to maintain its integrity as a safe space for women. What if someone who is male-bodied comes here genuinely identified as female, and then decides after a year or two that they identify as male — and wants to stay at Wellesley? How’s that different from admitting a biological male who identifies as a man? Trans men are a different case; we were raised female, we know what it’s like to be treated as females and we have been discriminated against as females. We get what life has been like for women.”

Oh great - here we go again. I'm not surprised that a trans man should take the line that gender is defined by genitals, because that fits well with most cis-gender men ( not Litsters obviously ! ). Not only is it inaccurate, it's bigoted.

Hmmm... maybe this year I'll decide to ID as a man? It'll be a nice change. FFS

And fianlly, thanks very much Mr Trans Man: trans women are not safe to be around. Another fucking myth endorsed by a man. Not surprised he kept his ID secret

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Identity politics is a form of ego defense.

Stella_Omega said:

Trans folk canbe transphobic. It's perfectly possible to hate what you were, or what you are.
Likewise any trans man who is predatory or misogynistic was the same way when he lived as a woman.That shit was in him long before he transitioned.

There are predatory, misogynistic trans women out there. None of these are the rule. The vast majority of us, by and large, prefer a quiet life. But it happens.

There are people who are pretty sure that they are a different gender, and who even undergo transition, but who never leave off the trappings of their previous role.

I personally know three people who transitioned and then de transitioned, much to the dismay and disgust of the political/gender purists within their circles.

So fucking what? Their gender is not a spectator sport. And when you really think about it, women's colleges like Wellesley formed to succor those who are victims of gender-based bigotry, and nowadays that includes a number of of groups that weren't so visible back in the day.
Misogyny affects everyone.

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Stella-
You know #4 virtually, Moi, and yep, the shitstorm that followed was worse than the transitioning.....

This gets into a very tangled mess. Most of the same sex colleges started admitting male students a long time ago, though very few in fact go to such schools. There are pluses to a single gender college like this (and yeah, I know, I also am leaving out those who gender identity is neither, in the middle, etc), but there are also negatives. I think for example being at a single gender college might give women a chance to study science or math without the bias that sadly still is out there in the world, that might empower them, or also might allow them to learn leadership and such without having to spend energy also fighting back stereotypes that men are better leaders and so forth.

The negative is that these all women schools are often seen, as evidenced in the article, as refuges from 'predatory males', that somehow men are always threatening or whatnot. As Stella rightfully points out, there are predatory F to M's, predatory women, that could be a threat, too.....what bothers me is the automatic assumption that is in these attitudes that someone born male has to be a predator, has to be a rapist, or a sexual pervert, or whatnot, and that is pathetic. I think a lot of those attitudes came about from the old dyke seperatists, who fit a lot of the stereotypes that people have of radical dykes, of being man haters, you name it (when most gay women are not, especially these days, as my therapist said, those old (kind of funny, she herself is now in her mid 70's) nasty pieces of work should have been put out to retirement a long time ago....).......

Sadly, it is about identity politics, and within 'communities' it often ends up being like something out of Orwell's "animal farm", where it turns into identity=truth, and where some end up more equal than others and so forth. According to the dyke separatist types, M to F trans people are not and can never be women (or the idiotic womyn, sorry, that drives me nuts, for a lot of reasons), since they were born male, they are just as bad as the religious stupid with their 'your sex is your gender' bullshit....so in the same vein, in their eyes, a F to M is not threat, since that person underneath it all is of course a woman, so they are okay.......

And before it sounds like i am down on gay women or on women's rights and such, I am not, no way, shape or form, I am talking a mentality of some, and for the record, the person who ended up literally saving my life, and that of my family and my son having a great childhood was a gay woman, as were so many LGBT folk who helped me through transition and then in the after affects of having to pull back (put it this way, a lot of my so called trans friends treated me like shit or worse, whereas a lot of the gays and lesbians I still count as friends helped me through some dark times when circumstances forced my hand)....

It is sad, because it sets up 'safe space' then knocks down the very term. Safe space is supposed to be a place you can be yourselves and the rules are set up to be such, but people like the ones I am talking about see safe space as 'where my rules dominate'. A M to F trans person at a place like Wellesley is going to benefit from the same kind of same space a cis woman would, or for that matter an F to M, a straight or gay woman, the whole point of wellesley is to create a safe space for a group that otherwise has had its issues (women), and the last thing an M to F is likely to be looking to do (unless they are mentally ill) is 'invade women's space' to 'take women's power from them' or worse 'to ogle women in the nude and predate them' (both of which I have heard and seem written), it is reducing someone's struggle down to being themselves to being some sort of sexual pervert. I wonder how the same people who would want M to F's not allowed would react to hearing that a gay woman should not be allowed to teach in a public school because they are doing so to seduce young women? It is no different, yet those with these attitudes don't see the irony, I guarantee you that.


A classic example of this is the infamous Michigan Womyn's Music festival, that last I checked still does not allow M to F transwomen to attend, no matter what their status is in terms of genitals (not that I think that should ever be a criteria, I think as long as someone identifies as a woman and is presenting as one/living as on,should be allowed), but the same group allows F To M's, including those that have been on T a while, fully present as male, and who have had top and/or bottom surgery....if they are worried about a M to F having a willy still, why don't they worry about an F to M having one? And it comes down to the fact that the dried up, sour old dykes who ran the place saw gender as being about birth sex, born a woman, always a woman, born a male, always a male, which is no different than the anti trans bigots who say the same thing (and if that has changed, that is a good thing, but hadn't last I checked).

I was discussing similar issues elsewhere recently: I think some of the most vicious "border policing" of groups comes from people who aren't secure of their own status in the group, and who decide they'd better put themselves in charge of drawing the boundaries and excluding people before anybody else can do it to them.

People hate change and generally speaking, the older they get the more they hate it. People hate admitting they're wrong as well, even when the facts are laid out in front of them.
( Whilst I'm being ageist, the most attractive older people are the ones who keep questioning and keep open minds - they are so hot )
So I say let the Wellesley and the Michigyn ostriches do what they do best. Maybe there'll be working museums: villages set aside for 20th century doctrines, with gift shops selling nursery rhymes about the bad old lesbians and bigoted gays? We can chide our children for sniggering at them...

stickygirl said:

People hate change and generally speaking, the older they get the more they hate it. People hate admitting they're wrong as well, even when the facts are laid out in front of them.
( Whilst I'm being ageist, the most attractive older people are the ones who keep questioning and keep open minds - they are so hot )
So I say let the Wellesley and the Michigyn ostriches do what they do best. Maybe there'll be working museums: villages set aside for 20th century doctrines, with gift shops selling nursery rhymes about the bad old lesbians and bigoted gays? We can chide our children for sniggering at them...

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There are some places like that already, some collectives and such that remind me of museums. Reading more on Michigan, I am struck how clueless the founder is on why people are upset when she says there is need for space for women who were born that way, that they are an oppressed group and need a space that is safe for them. While I am all for safe spaces, what she doesn't understand is women are oppressed because they are women, not because of the way they grew up, and given that every women who grows up a women does so in different ways, how can you discriminate on that one item if in of itself there is little commonality? A women growing up in Africa is going to have a different experience then one growing up in the US or in a Muslim country or in an Asian country, a girl born in a city wlll have a different experience then one born in the country, a girl from an upper class family will grow up differently from one in a working class one.....and in a sense, trans people do grow up as girls, but girls not allowed to be themselves (talking M to F), so they do share something of oppression that other women can and do experience.

Hopefully this kind of thinking will be an anachronism, I agree,but identity politics is a tough nut to crack.

njlauren said:

There are some places like that already, some collectives and such that remind me of museums. Reading more on Michigan, I am struck how clueless the founder is on why people are upset when she says there is need for space for women who were born that way, that they are an oppressed group and need a space that is safe for them. While I am all for safe spaces, what she doesn't understand is women are oppressed because they are women, not because of the way they grew up, and given that every women who grows up a women does so in different ways, how can you discriminate on that one item if in of itself there is little commonality? A women growing up in Africa is going to have a different experience then one growing up in the US or in a Muslim country or in an Asian country, a girl born in a city wlll have a different experience then one born in the country, a girl from an upper class family will grow up differently from one in a working class one.....and in a sense, trans people do grow up as girls, but girls not allowed to be themselves (talking M to F), so they do share something of oppression that other women can and do experience.

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Yeah, I'm a wee bit cynical about the TERFs who start out with "it's not about biology, it's about shared experience!" and then out of the huge spectrum of human experience, just coincidentally happen to focus on the small chunk that happens to coincide with the shape of one's genitals at birth.

The last time I checked the CDC said gay people make up 5% of the population. Trans are 1% or less. This shouldn't even be a story? Yet everyday I read something written like it's a major issue effecting everyone. It's not it's about accommodating a minority of people. Nobody should be mistreated, but can we have a little perspective here.

Wellesley wants to admit men who feel like women fine, but I have no doubt the women at the college will have issues.

JawnKarTurr said:

The last time I checked the CDC said gay people make up 5% of the population. Trans are 1% or less. This shouldn't even be a story?

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Hi. You're in the "GLBT Chatter" forum. Any thoughts on what we ought to be discussing here, if not gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender-related issues?

Yet everyday I read something written like it's a major issue effecting everyone. It's not it's about accommodating a minority of people. Nobody should be mistreated, but can we have a little perspective here.

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I find it more useful to focus on the things that need fixing rather than dwelling on "Straight Cis White Guys: Still Doing Okay". Where's the news in that?

^^^

stickygirl said:

( ... the most attractive older people are the ones who keep questioning and keep open minds - they are so hot )

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