Sound and meter

bogusagain said:

I can see why I stopped writing poetry. Rocket science is less complex.

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At least there's no calculus.

Yet.

pelegrino said:

Clever observation, Seena, alluding to the mood of the narrator perhaps been "snowy" as his name is.
I am not sure if this is the case, but I definitely think that "snow" is not put there for the shake of rhyming only.
BTW, in L2 of this stanza is the reference made to "his house" as per Tzara's example or to "his wife" as per yours?
The meaning (in my opinion) may not change drastically by either word, but the "expressive" style does change by the choice of word.
Interested to know what others think.

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SJ is being comical. His "quote" is not a quote of the poem. Go back and look at the original.

I like that you refer to him as "Seena," which seems to me to be in the same spirit as his, um, "quote."

Tzara said:

As with the Byron poem, the individual lines vary a bit, but the overall meter is dactylic dimeter:

Can·non to / right of them,
Can·non to / left of them,
Can·non in / front of them
Vol·ley'd and / thun·der'd;​

In the Longfellow poem, the trochaic meter is intended to evoke the sound of drumming. Here the dactylic meter evokes the sound of a galloping horse.

At least that's my assumption about why the meter was chosen.

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I agree with both your assumptions as to the choice of rhythm.
Especially in the case of Tennyson's poem it is hard to imagine a rhythm other than a 3 syllable one to fit the prance of horses apart from a dactyl or a anapest.

(depending on how one hears in his head the rhythm of the prance).

Tzara said:

SJ is being comical. [...]

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Let's take off and set our c. hats aside. I'd like to say, Tzara, that this is a great thread. (Seriously, no c.).


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PS. I've written "our" (i.e. Frost+Tzara+SJ) above because it were you, Tzara, who started Frost's second stanza with:



Let me scan it for you:


Right? However, we may pretend that this whole poem is kindergarten, and it really is.

It is those flaccid beats that cause me problems. They are not strong enough to carry an iamb except in relation to the obviously weaker beat preceding. What does one do? Is that good for the sake of rhythmic variety, or simply failure to implement the form? I'd appreciate any scansion of my two 30/30 sonnets, should a person be willing. I'll return the favor with careful scrutiny.

Also, what of this? Does everyone agree that the first line has 6 strong beats? (Highly irregular as the first line usually declares the form.) As well, what about lines 8 and 14? Four strong beats each to my ear, yet I love this poem for its boldness, passion and vivid imagery.

England in 1819
BY PERCY BYSSHE SHELLEY
An old, mad, blind, despised, and dying King;
Princes, the dregs of their dull race, who flow
Through public scorn,—mud from a muddy spring;
Rulers who neither see nor feel nor know,
But leechlike to their fainting country cling
Till they drop, blind in blood, without a blow.
A people starved and stabbed in th' untilled field;
An army, whom liberticide and prey
Makes as a two-edged sword to all who wield;
Golden and sanguine laws which tempt and slay;
Religion Christless, Godless—a book sealed;
A senate, Time’s worst statute, unrepealed—
Are graves from which a glorious Phantom may
Burst, to illumine our tempestuous day.

playcatch said:

Also, what of this? Does everyone agree that the first line has 6 strong beats? (Highly irregular as the first line usually declares the form.) As well, what about lines 8 and 14? Four strong beats each to my ear, yet I love this poem for its boldness, passion and vivid imagery.

England in 1819
BY PERCY BYSSHE SHELLEY
An old, mad, blind, despised, and dying King;
Princes, the dregs of their dull race, who flow
Through public scorn,—mud from a muddy spring;
Rulers who neither see nor feel nor know,
But leechlike to their fainting country cling
Till they drop, blind in blood, without a blow.
A people starved and stabbed in th' untilled field;
An army, whom liberticide and prey
Makes as a two-edged sword to all who wield;
Golden and sanguine laws which tempt and slay;
Religion Christless, Godless—a book sealed;
A senate, Time’s worst statute, unrepealed—
Are graves from which a glorious Phantom may
Burst, to illumine our tempestuous day.

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definitely 6 strong beats L1, but i get 5 and 5 respectively on L8 and L14. having said that, if i'd read this woodenly, that last line would have been:

Burst, to illumine our tempestuous day

playcatch said:

It is those flaccid beats that cause me problems. They are not strong enough to carry an iamb except in relation to the obviously weaker beat preceding. What does one do? Is that good for the sake of rhythmic variety, or simply failure to implement the form? I'd appreciate any scansion of my two 30/30 sonnets, should a person be willing. I'll return the favor with careful scrutiny.

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playcatch said:

Also, what of this? Does everyone agree that the first line has 6 strong beats? (Highly irregular as the first line usually declares the form.) As well, what about lines 8 and 14? Four strong beats each to my ear, yet I love this poem for its boldness, passion and vivid imagery.

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To me it sounds quite irregular to think of poetic feet as "forms". In accentual languages like modern English they are merely intended to represent repetitive rhythmic patterns.
I think you are right in assuming that some beats are only relatively stronger to weaker beats proceeding. But in that way the Iamb is not lost as you say because its stress is still carried by a (relatively) stronger beat.
It seems that you are influenced very much by the relative strength of stressed syllables.
Think in four terms rather than two: Strong - relatively less strong- weak - relatively weaker.
But still you cannot change an Iamb's weak-strong-weak-strong succession pattern, even if some beats are only relatively strong.
I agree that this relatively strong or weaker beats enhance the rhythmic variety of a piece, but I think that they are hardly ever intentional, as most poets tend to think only in strong and weak beats and hardly ever in less strong and relatively weaker beats.

I did not look in detail into the Shelley poem that you posted. I agree with what you say about continuous stresses, but I also think (by a quick look) that some lines are iambic and some are not.
Here I would think that a more precise rhythmical setting would have to be used for describing your example, or a rhythmic setting would have to be invented by a person that understands rhythm in absolute time values (ie minims, crochets, quavers etc), rather than loosely applied descriptions of poetic feet.

playcatch said:

Also, what of this? Does everyone agree that the first line has 6 strong beats? (Highly irregular as the first line usually declares the form.) As well, what about lines 8 and 14? Four strong beats each to my ear, yet I love this poem for its boldness, passion and vivid imagery.

England in 1819
BY PERCY BYSSHE SHELLEY
An old, mad, blind, despised, and dying King;
Princes, the dregs of their dull race, who flow
Through public scorn,—mud from a muddy spring;
Rulers who neither see nor feel nor know,
But leechlike to their fainting country cling
Till they drop, blind in blood, without a blow.
A people starved and stabbed in th' untilled field;
An army, whom liberticide and prey
Makes as a two-edged sword to all who wield;
Golden and sanguine laws which tempt and slay;
Religion Christless, Godless—a book sealed;
A senate, Time’s worst statute, unrepealed—
Are graves from which a glorious Phantom may
Burst, to illumine our tempestuous day.

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This is an interesting poem in a number of ways, pc. It's a sonnet, but the iambic pentameter has a number of substitutions (both trochees and spondees, which I haven't talked about yet). The rhyme scheme is quite unusual as well, kind of like an upside-down Italian sonnet.

Yes, I agree that some of the lines have six stresses--specifically both line 1 and line 6. Here's how I would scan the poem:Line one has a spondee substitution in the second foot of the line. A spondee is a metrical foot of two syllables where the syllables are both stressed. It's used to substitute for other metrical feet, probably to vary the rhythm, the way that most substutions are.

Indeed, but variation is always introduced later in a poem, for how can one vary what is just being established. I think the first line is a fist slamming a table in emphasis and displaying wanton disregard of rules. Shelley uses his syllables to spark revolution.

playcatch said:

It is those flaccid beats that cause me problems. They are not strong enough to carry an iamb except in relation to the obviously weaker beat preceding. What does one do? Is that good for the sake of rhythmic variety, or simply failure to implement the form? I'd appreciate any scansion of my two 30/30 sonnets, should a person be willing. I'll return the favor with careful scrutiny.

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As 1201 is always pointing out, the variation in stress in any line is not binary, where stressed syllables all have the same stress and unstressed syllables all have the same lack of stress. Kenneth Koch says something like meter is a kind of framework or structure beneath the natural sound of the speech--that it's there to enhance the sound of the speech, not to overpower it. If it's too obvious (and too regular), it ends up sounding like a metronome.

And I'd be happy to look at your poems. It might take a day or two, though.

Superb. Take your time.

Tzara said:

As 1201 is always pointing out, the variation in stress in any line is not binary, where stressed syllables all have the same stress and unstressed syllables all have the same lack of stress. Kenneth Koch says something like meter is a kind of framework or structure beneath the natural sound of the speech--that it's there to enhance the sound of the speech, not to overpower it. If it's too obvious (and too regular), it ends up sounding like a metronome.

And I'd be happy to look at your poems. It might take a day or two, though.

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ask for the devil?

if you divide a line into feet - Arbitrary
within the foot some syllable will be stronger than another

An old, / mad, blind, / des·pised, / and dy / ing King;

without taking issue with your scansion, chances are mad and blind will not be equal, blind would default to the stronger position

so it is possible the penti is preserved while having six beats

mad having more "stress" than weak points

I believe there may be some old posts regarding such matters. This is something along the lines of generative metrics. Koch (either knowingly or unknowingly in regards to the term) did work along those lines.

playcatch said:

Indeed, but variation is always introduced later in a poem, for how can one vary what is just being established. I think the first line is a fist slamming a table in emphasis and displaying wanton disregard of rules. Shelley uses his syllables to spark revolution.

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re:
An old, mad, blind, despised, and dying King;
very good. pc or pg or whatev. insightful.
correction
variation is almost always introduced...
consider the line and the context. see all the d's and he slams a b in there, hmm, he is doing something. as said insightful. an offset in time duration.

btw this is set up deliberatly as an anomalous line, old, mad, blind, despised and dying King
what the hell a noun phrase with five adjectives?

re:
Kenneth Koch says something like meter is a kind of framework
an analogy, a drummer in a band doing 4/4 time, they all do it different, don't they? I leave it up to you and pelegrino to duke it out. 'cause wtf do I know? only questions. only questions - note the root.

I signed up for a class, but don't recall which one. I'm not flighty, just busy, remind me of your upcoming classes!

Here's an interesting poem, from a poet one wouldn't (or at least, I wouldn't) normally associate with formal metrical verse:So. Name the meter, if you can (or want to). And comment on why this meter might have been chosen by the poet for this particular poem.

If I am scanning correctly, I hear amphibrachic trimeter. It is reminiscent of walting. And a (put the foot up ready for that rough waltz led by a Sheep farmer with lanolin-smoothed hand) ONE two three, ONE two three. More or less.

pelegrino said:

Here I would think that a more precise rhythmical setting would have to be used for describing your example, or a rhythmic setting would have to be invented by a person that understands rhythm in absolute time values (ie minims, crochets, quavers etc), rather than loosely applied descriptions of poetic feet.

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Thank you.

Tzara said:

Here's an interesting poem, from a poet one wouldn't (or at least, I wouldn't) normally associate with formal metrical verse:

The Dance
William Carlos Williams

In Brueghel's great picture, The Kermess,
the dancers go round, they go round and
around, the squeal and the blare and the
tweedle of bagpipes, a bugle and fiddles
tipping their bellies (round as the thick-
sided glasses whose wash they impound)
their hips and their bellies off balance
to turn them. Kicking and rolling
about the Fair Grounds, swinging their butts, those
shanks must be sound to bear up under such
rollicking measures, prance as they dance
in Brueghel's great picture, The Kermess.​

So. Name the meter, if you can (or want to). And comment on why this meter might have been chosen by the poet for this particular poem.

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http://www.shmoop.com/the-dance-poem/rhyme-form-meter.html
quote from page:
Go through and track the accents yourself, and see if you can figure out all the nifty tricks that meter master, WCW, is pulling off. Like the dancers, we bet it will make your head spin.

Despite his term meter master and your inclusion in formal metrical verse WCW was probably more inclined to mimic rhythmic patterns heard, that would be more likely from him.
Formal may not be a good term, here. (joke implied)

twelveoone said:

http://www.shmoop.com/the-dance-poem/rhyme-form-meter.html
quote from page:
Go through and track the accents yourself, and see if you can figure out all the nifty tricks that meter master, WCW, is pulling off. Like the dancers, we bet it will make your head spin.

Despite his term meter master and your inclusion in formal metrical verse WCW was probably more inclined to mimic rhythmic patterns heard, that would be more likely from him.
Formal may not be a good term, here. (joke implied)

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Following your link, i think that the explanation given there that this is a waltz, only with the 2nd beat stressed instead of the first, that should make a monkey of a waltz in no time. So the "dance scholars" once again don't know what they're talking about. A more appropriate dance rhythm would be that of a sarabande, which, been in 3/4 time, has a characteristic 2nd beat stressed.
As for the 3 feet amphibrach, I don't think it is maintained throughout the piece, so I agree with you, WCW is also pulling "other trics" in here.

playcatch said:

If I am scanning correctly, I hear amphibrachic trimeter. It is reminiscent of walting. And a (put the foot up ready for that rough waltz led by a Sheep farmer with lanolin-smoothed hand) ONE two three, ONE two three. More or less.

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Yes, I also think it is amphibrachic trimeter, at least mostly.

But its beat is more a one TWO three one TWO three meter. Not a waltz at all, but still very dance-like, which I assume was Williams' point.

pelegrino said:

Following your link, i think that the explanation given there that this is a waltz, only with the 2nd beat stressed instead of the first, that should make a monkey of a waltz in no time. So the "dance scholars" once again don't know what they're talking about. A more appropriate dance rhythm would be that of a sarabande, which, been in 3/4 time, has a characteristic 2nd beat stressed.
As for the 3 feet amphibrach, I don't think it is maintained throughout the piece, so I agree with you, WCW is also pulling "other trics" in here.

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Perhaps a more appropriate waltz rhythm would be dactylic:

Tzara said:

Yes, I also think it is amphibrachic trimeter, at least mostly.

But its beat is more a one TWO three one TWO three meter. Not a waltz at all, but still very dance-like, which I assume was Williams' point.

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piece of advice - leave the free versers out - stick to the ones that did write to the metre
Swinburne, Harding, Auden, et al.
Frost may be tricky, what with his loose iambs (wtf)
glad to see you marking this shit off finally

Tzara said:

Perhaps a more appropriate waltz rhythm would be dactylic:

Turn·ing in / rhy·thms while / a round the / ball room the
dan·cers are / el·e·gant, / all dressed quite / so in their
chif·fon·ier / gowns which are / real·ly quite / love·ly and
which I would / love to dis / robe them from. / (Par·don me.)​

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I like that one, Tzara, with a cleverly calculated melody, varied time values and appropriate tempo, i think it can be done as a waltz, and still maintain some real (not offending) emphasis on non emphatic words.

How about this? I think it's marvelous, but I do love me some Edna.

“I think I should have loved you presently”
BY EDNA ST. VINCENT MILLAY
I think I should have loved you presently,
And given in earnest words I flung in jest;
And lifted honest eyes for you to see,
And caught your hand against my cheek and breast;
And all my pretty follies flung aside
That won you to me, and beneath your gaze,
Naked of reticence and shorn of pride,
Spread like a chart my little wicked ways.
I, that had been to you, had you remained,
But one more waking from a recurrent dream,
Cherish no less the certain stakes I gained,
And walk your memory’s halls, austere, supreme,
A ghost in marble of a girl you knew
Who would have loved you in a day or two.