Sound and meter

Tzara

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My poetry class is currently working on form poetry and, as always, people are having a hell of a time with meter. Think of this thread as me talking to myself about the subject. Feel free to interject your own thoughts or questions on the subject.



One of the qualities that distinguishes poetry, at least much poetry, from prose is the attention paid to the sound of words. That isn't to say that sound is not important to a prose writer, but sound doesn't have quite as important a role in prose as it does in poetry.

There are a number of elements that contribute to a poem's sound--rhyme, consonance, assonance, alliteration, and so on. Rhythmic techniques contribute to the sound of the poem as well. The placement of a caesura (a pause, usually created by punctuation) in the line alters the rhythm of the line, for example. A classic means of controlling the rhythm of a poem is through its metrical structure. Consider the following two examples, drawn from the opening of famous poems:
Come live with me and be my Love,
And we will all the pleasures prove

Should you ask me, whence these stories?
Whence these legends and traditions,
Now think of how they sound rhythmically. They are very alike in some ways, but also clearly different, especially when read out loud. The second has a caesura in its first line, where the comma is placed, but even if that was not there, they would sound quite differently. There is only one polysyllabic word in the first example compared to three (including a trisyllabic word) in the second--that certainly seems to make a difference, but is that why they sound so different? Both examples have the same number of syllables (eight) per line.

What makes them rhythmically so different is the meter. In accentual-syllabic verse, which both of these examples are, the metrical structure of a line is composed of a uniform metrical foot, which is repeated a specific number of times. The meter is labeled by the type of foot (iambic, trochaic, anapestic, and so on) and the number of feet (trimeter, tetrameter, pentameter, etc.).

The first example, by Christopher Marlowe, is in iambic tetrameter. An iamb is a disyllabic foot composed of an unstressed syllable followed by a stressed syllable. The words "control" and "technique" are iambic--they consist of two syllables, with the latter syllable stressed. So, marking the stresses and feet in the Marlowe example, you get
Come live / with me / and be / my Love,
And we / will all / the pleas / ures prove
Each line consists of four iambs, one after the other.

The second example, which is by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, is clearly not iambic; if you mark the stressed syllables and divide them into two syllable units, you get
Should you / ask me, / whence these / stor·ies?
Whence these / leg·ends / and trad / i·tions,
Longfellow's poem is just as uniform and consists of the same number (four) of units/feet, but here each foot is composed of a stressed syllable followed by an unstressed syllable, the opposite of an iamb.

This is called a trochee; examples of trochaic words would be "swimming" or "iamb." (Curiously, both "iamb" and "trochee" are themselves trochaic.) Given that there are four trochees in each line, the Longfellow example is in trochaic tetrameter.

In English, iambic meters are more common and are sometimes said to sound more "natural." Trochaic meters are perhaps more "driven" sounding. Longfellow's use of trochaic tetrameter in "The Song of Hiawatha" is cited as using the meter to give the poem a steady drumming sound.

So, now consider another example, from William Blake:
Tyger, tyger, burning bright,
In the forests of the night;
What's going on here? The lines start with trochees but don't end on one. If you try and map things starting from the end of the line, it all looks iambic except that the first unstressed syllable is missing.

What do you call this meter?
 
*Looks around the lonely thread.*

So do your fellow students despise you because you understand this stuff and they don't?:D

I got nuthin. I though the Blake was trochees. Trochee/Anapest?
 
Before I try and explain that Blake thing, here's another poem to consider:
The Destruction of Sennacherib
George Gordon, Lord Byron

The Assyrian came down like the wolf on the fold,
And his cohorts were gleaming in purple and gold;
And the sheen of their spears was like stars on the sea,
When the blue wave rolls nightly on deep Galilee.

Like the leaves of the forest when Summer is green,
That host with their banners at sunset were seen:
Like the leaves of the forest when Autumn hath blown,
That host on the morrow lay withered and strown.

For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed;
And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!

And there lay the steed with his nostril all wide,
But through it there rolled not the breath of his pride;
And the foam of his gasping lay white on the turf,
And cold as the spray of the rock-beating surf.

And there lay the rider distorted and pale,
With the dew on his brow, and the rust on his mail:
And the tents were all silent, the banners alone,
The lances unlifted, the trumpet unblown.

And the widows of Ashur are loud in their wail,
And the idols are broke in the temple of Baal;
And the might of the Gentile, unsmote by the sword,
Hath melted like snow in the glance of the Lord!​
This is clearly neither iambic nor trochaic, and there's just too many syllables for this to be some kind of pentameter (there's usually twelve syllables per line, fer god's sake, though that varies between eleven and thirteen).

This poem has a very different rhythm than the Marlowe and Longfellow excerpts I posted before.

Why is that? I'll try and explain tomorrow.
 
*Looks around the lonely thread.*

So do your fellow students despise you because you understand this stuff and they don't?:D

I got nuthin. I though the Blake was trochees. Trochee/Anapest?
Remember, I said I was mainly talking to myself. As you know, I think understanding meter is important for a poet, even though modern poetry is almost never written in meter, and though many poets pooh pooh it.

The Blake is basically trochaic tetrameter. Is trochaic tetrameter. With a modification.

I'll write about that tomorrow, assuming I have time.
 
When it comes to naming names I'm lost, I go by how it sounds in my head.
Of course you do. We all do.

But you had to develop the ear to hear it. Naming it probably isn't important unless you want to teach or get a degree, which is what I want to do.

I do think it is a valuable skill to be able to recognize a particular meter and name it, but it's probably only valuable if you want to teach poetry or literature.

Which, again, I kind of want to do.
 
The first example, by Christopher Marlowe, is in iambic tetrameter. An iamb is a disyllabic foot composed of an unstressed syllable followed by a stressed syllable. The words "control" and "technique" are iambic--they consist of two syllables, with the latter syllable stressed. So, marking the stresses and feet in the Marlowe example, you get
Come live / with me / and be / my Love,
And we / will all / the pleas / ures prove
Each line consists of four iambs, one after the other.

The second example, which is by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, is clearly not iambic; if you mark the stressed syllables and divide them into two syllable units, you get
Should you / ask me, / whence these / stor·ies?
Whence these / leg·ends / and trad / i·tions,
Longfellow's poem is just as uniform and consists of the same number (four) of units/feet, but here each foot is composed of a stressed syllable followed by an unstressed syllable, the opposite of an iamb.

This is called a trochee; examples of trochaic words would be "swimming" or "iamb." (Curiously, both "iamb" and "trochee" are themselves trochaic.) Given that there are four trochees in each line, the Longfellow example is in trochaic tetrameter.

I agree with your definitions of metric feet.
I disagree with your concept of single words been described as iambic or trochaic etc cause it could be confusing to learners and learnt alike.
The original poetic concept (in Greek poetry that is)was referring to types of feet but not to single words and I don’t think that this concept has ever changed or got modified somehow in any poetical tradition worthy of its name.
Further more I believe that if we change some ancient and well established concepts we can turn the world upside down, which is what is happening since the devaluation and gradual abandonment of classical studies in USA first and in the rest of the world later.
Having said that, my point is that given the flexibility that exists in all metrical feet, a "trochaic" word can belong to an iambic foot and visa versa.
The words as such are more precisely defined by Greek grammar as follows:

(I use English words, so to speak, for better understanding)

1. oxytone : depress (what you call an "iamb")
2. paroxytone: father (what you call a "trochee")
3. pro-paroxytone: anarchy (what you would call a "dactyl")

By the way, the presumption that the words "Iamb" and "Trochee" are of a "trochaic" stress is only relative and applies only to current use of the English language. French people for example would stress "trochee" as trochee.

The original form of them is as follows:
1. Iamvos: (Ί-αμ-βος) = pro- paroxytone
2. Trochaeos: (Τρο-χαί-ος) = paroxytone

In general, I think you have started a very informative and needed thread.
Thanks.
 
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I agree with your definitions of metric feet.
I disagree with your concept of single words been described as iambic or trochaic etc cause it could be confusing to learners and learnt alike.
The original poetic concept (in Greek poetry that is)was referring to types of feet but not to single words and I don’t think that this concept has ever changed or got modified somehow in any poetical tradition worthy of its name.
Further more I believe that if we change some ancient and well established concepts we can turn the world upside down, which is what is happening since the devaluation and gradual abandonment of classical studies in USA first and in the rest of the world later.
Having said that, my point is that given the flexibility that exists in all metrical feet, a "trochaic" word can belong to an iambic foot and visa versa.
The words as such are more precisely defined by Greek grammar as follows:

(I use English words, so to speak, for better understanding)

1. oxytone : depress (what you call an "iamb")
2. paroxytone: father (what you call a "trochee")
3. pro-paroxytone: anarchy (what you would call a "dactyl")

By the way, the presumption that the words "Iamb" and "Trochee" are of a "trochaic" stress is only relative and applies only to current use of the English language. French people for example would stress "trochee" as trochee.

The original form of them is as follows:
1. Iamvos: (Ί-αμ-βος) = pro- paroxytone
2. Trochaeos: (Τρο-χαί-ος) = paroxytone

In general, I think you have started a very informative and needed thread.
Thanks.
Sorry, I've been busy all day and not able to respond.

You are completely correct that individual words are not in themselves iambic or trochaic or, to get ahead of myself, anapestic or dactylic.

Words are metrical in context.

I simply meant that those words illustrated the sound of the foot I was trying to talk about.

That was all.
 
I haven't been around for a while, but I'm thinking I need to take your class!
 
OK. Blake's "Tyger."

Let's scan at the first verse:
Ty·ger / Ty·ger, / burn·ing / bright,
In the / for·ests / of the / night;
What im / mor·tal / hand or / eye,
Could frame / thy fear/ ful sym / met·ry?​
Trochaic tetrameter, mostly. But there's a missing unstressed syllable at the end of each line and that last line looks like straightforward iambic tetrameter.

What the fuck is this meter?

Well (T-zed says with a degree of authority that he really does not have), the first three lines are examples of catalexis--the final syllable of the trochaic foot gets dropped, though the line is still clearly trochaic.

This keeps it from sounding like the drumming analogue of the Longfellow poem, but also kind of confuses the reader as to what meter is actually being written. It has the drive of trochaic verse, but not the softer finish to the line.

And, on top of that, the fourth line of the stanza is pure iambic tetrameter!

Right. New rule. Verse should vary its metrical form to break up the monotony of regular meter, but also to just kind of shake things up, once in a while.

Or something like that.
 
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So far so good!
I agree and approve of your analysis and establishment of this rule.
"Catalexis" as an incomplete foot is a very usual phenomenon in both main stream and traditional poetry (as far as the poetry I know of goes) and its main function is to do the things that you say, ie to provide variety and pause/relaxation by its missing soft (silent) beat.
Since you introduced the concept of "catalexis", if the reader pays attention cannot be confused.
The introduction of the iambic line is also providing variety and it is a bit more advanced as a technique.
In the example you give it is masterfully done by the poet!
Thanks.
 
OK. Blake's "Tyger."

Let's scan at the first verse:
Ty·ger / Ty·ger, / burn·ing / bright,
In the / for·ests / of the / night;
What im / mor·tal / hand or / eye,
Could frame / thy fear/ ful sym / met·ry?​
Trochaic tetrameter, mostly. But there's a missing unstressed syllable at the end of each line and that last line looks like straightforward iambic tetrameter.
........ New rule. Verse should vary its metrical form to break up the monotony of regular meter, but also to just kind of shake things up, once in a while.

Or something like that.

Another subtle aspect of the meter is that the pattern extends from line 3 to 4 and thus differs slighly from line 1 and 2. I'm not sure why there's a comma at the end of line 3 because it's between the subject and the verb; an error in transposing perhaps? In that regard, the pause that comes at that line break is more subtle (to my ear at least) than the more definitive pauses ending lines 1 and 2, again adding a delightful variation to the sound of the stanza.
 
Another subtle aspect of the meter is that the pattern extends from line 3 to 4 and thus differs slighly from line 1 and 2. I'm not sure why there's a comma at the end of line 3 because it's between the subject and the verb; an error in transposing perhaps? In that regard, the pause that comes at that line break is more subtle (to my ear at least) than the more definitive pauses ending lines 1 and 2, again adding a delightful variation to the sound of the stanza.

Very insightful, GM!
It is a much more subtle pause. At the same time (in a musical sense) the pause may not be needed at all.
What I mean is that the first syllable of L4 could be taken as an "anacrusis" belonging to the last foot of L3 and thus making it fully trochaic and at the same time helping for a smooth rhythmic transition from trochee to iamb. If I was to divide it into musical bars I would write the first syllable of L4 in the last bar of the L3 setting as an anacrusis so as to fall correspondingly with the strong beat of the iamb's second syllable into the strong 1st beat of the next bar.
 
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Another subtle aspect of the meter is that the pattern extends from line 3 to 4 and thus differs slightly from line 1 and 2. I'm not sure why there's a comma at the end of line 3 because it's between the subject and the verb; an error in transposing perhaps? In that regard, the pause that comes at that line break is more subtle (to my ear at least) than the more definitive pauses ending lines 1 and 2, again adding a delightful variation to the sound of the stanza.
The lines are all end-stopped, as well, as they are throughout the poem. Let's look at the whole poem:
The Tyger
William Blake

Tyger Tyger, burning bright,
In the forests of the night;
What immortal hand or eye,
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

In what distant deeps or skies.
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand, dare seize the fire?

And what shoulder, & what art,
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?
And when thy heart began to beat,
What dread hand? & what dread feet?

What the hammer? what the chain,
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? what dread grasp,
Dare its deadly terrors clasp!

When the stars threw down their spears
And water'd heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the Lamb make thee?

Tyger Tyger burning bright,
In the forests of the night:
What immortal hand or eye,
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?​
This text is from Poets.org. Here's Blake's original, with his illustrations.

I'll comment on this tomorrow, assuming I have time. And the Byron poem, which I have been neglecting.
 
The penultimate stanza L4 also breaks the trochaic pattern introducing an iambic one.
 
Tzara, thanks for making my eyes cross and head hurt :)

I need to absorb this stuff, I'll never remember the terminology but I'm trying to hone my ear and reading (and re-reading) these explanations are helpful. Painful, but helpful.

If your humor here on Lit translates to your eventual classroom you'll be enjoyable to learn from.
 
As much as I appreciate that some here can understand sound as musical notation, I can't. So what I need to understand is what type of sound each meter makes and what combinations of them sound like. If there were an app for that I'd be on it like white on rice. Maybe someone can invent one. :D

Please you professors explain so I can make practical use of it.
 
There are three metrical feet consisting of three syllables: the anapest, the dactyl, and the amphibrach. They differ in which of the three syllables the stress falls on. In an anapestic foot, the stressed syllable is the last of the three ("intertwine," "in the end"). In a dactylic foot, the stressed syllable is the first ("anapest," video"). In the amphibrach, the stressed syllable is the middle one ("companion," "amazement").

These feet are most often used as a substitution in iambic or trochaic meter, to vary the rhythm a little. But, just like iambs or trochees, they can be used to as the basic metrical foot as well, as here:
The win·dow / was o·pen / and we were / all freez·ing—
My moth·er, / my fath·er, / and me, all / to·geth·er.
We hud·dled / in sweat·ers / and blank·ets, / all sneez·ing
Be·cause of / the draft·y / and cold win / ter weath·er.​
In this example, the basic foot is an amphibrach (three syllables, middle one stressed) and each line consists of four feet, so the verse is in amphibrachic tetrameter.

The Byron poem I posted earlier is in anapestic tetrameter, though a number of the lines have elided first syllables (i.e. the first unstressed syllable in the first foot is missing). This gives the meter a slight variation and helps to keep it from being too robotic.

Limericks tend to have anapestic or amphibrachic meters, though they're often inconsistent.
 
As much as I appreciate that some here can understand sound as musical notation, I can't. So what I need to understand is what type of sound each meter makes and what combinations of them sound like. If there were an app for that I'd be on it like white on rice. Maybe someone can invent one. :D

Please you professors explain so I can make practical use of it.
OK, let's try this: some examples. As pure as I can find.

Here's Robert Frost:
Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening

Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.

My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.

He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound’s the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.​
Compare the sound of that poem to this one, by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow:
The Song of Hiawatha (beginning)

On the shores of Gitche Gumee,
Of the shining Big-Sea-Water,
Stood Nokomis, the old woman,
Pointing with her finger westward,
O'er the water pointing westward,
To the purple clouds of sunset.
Fiercely the red sun descending
Burned his way along the heavens,
Set the sky on fire behind him,
As war-parties, when retreating,
Burn the prairies on their war-trail;
And the moon, the Night-sun, eastward,
Suddenly starting from his ambush,
Followed fast those bloody footprints,
Followed in that fiery war-trail,
With its glare upon his features.​
Both of these are almost pure tetrameter ("Suddenly starting from his ambush" in the Longfellow has a dactyl substitution in the line, but I think the rest of the excerpt is pure). Do they sound the same to you?

If they sound rhythmically different, which I hope they do, what's the difference?

(This isn't a test, so them sounding the same to you or them sounding different but you're not sure what's different about them is OK. They are quite similar, though also quite different. Try reading them out loud or, better, recording yourself reading them out loud. It's an ear thing, and almost everyone has trouble with it.)
 
The penultimate stanza L4 also breaks the trochaic pattern introducing an iambic one.
There are actually several "iambic" lines, which are, as you correctly noted earlier, examples of anacrusis (which Merriam-Webster defines as "one or more syllables at the beginning of a line of poetry that are regarded as preliminary to and not a part of the metrical pattern."). Specifically, I hear lines 4, 10, 11, 18, 20, and 24 as beginning with an unstressed syllable.

I find these two lines especially interesting
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the Lamb make thee?​
as "Did" goes from being stressed in the first line to unstressed in the second.
 
OK, let's try this: some examples. As pure as I can find.

Here's Robert Frost:
Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening



Whose wood this is I think I know.
His wife is in the village though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his wood fill up with snow.



It's great that the Internet let us learn Frost poetry. But I don't understand the last word "snow". Is it there just for the sake of rhyme and meter? Or is Frost making an allusion to his name Frost. Please everybody, help!

*********************

PS. The plural woods in the title: Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening, sounds so perverted. And starting with the second stanza it gets even more so, true Literotica.
 
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As much as I appreciate that some here can understand sound as musical notation, I can't. So what I need to understand is what type of sound each meter makes and what combinations of them sound like. If there were an app for that I'd be on it like white on rice. Maybe someone can invent one. :D

Please you professors explain so I can make practical use of it.

Here, Ange, this is what I think Tzara means by a reading out loudly of these pieces:

1
Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.

My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.

He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound’s the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

(btw, "the darkest evening of the year" does it refer here to winter solstice, anyone knows?)

2
On the shores of Gitche Gumee,
Of the shining Big-Sea-Water,
Stood Nokomis, the old woman,
Pointing with her finger westward,
O'er the water pointing westward,
To the purple clouds of sunset.
Fiercely the red sun descending
Burned his way along the heavens,
Set the sky on fire behind him,
As war-parties, when retreating,
Burn the prairies on their war-trail;
And the moon, the Night-sun, eastward,
Suddenly starting from his ambush,
Followed fast those bloody footprints,
Followed in that fiery war-trail,
With its glare upon his features.

The word "suddenly" that I have underlined is of a "dactylic" stress as Tzara pointed out and I should have divided it strictly speaking into three syllables, but as it is easy to be pronounced quickly the first two syllables can be taken as one bit, thus affording for the trochaic pattern not to be broken. This is not really possible or desirable with all 3 syllable words, but in the end it all depends in a given rhythmic setting of a piece.

As for a more detailed rhythmic notation of a poem, I had discussed the matter in some length with Tsotha a few months ago. I had come up with a three row-multiple column frame which made music notation an easy matter for the non-music specialist. Apart from notating the stress of syllables it also provided for exact musical time values and for the melody of a song.
(1 row for the text, 1 for the time values and 1 for the melody. You can add more rows/columns if you want to add harmony, other parameters, and bells and whistles).
I sent the draught to Tsotha by email together with an example of a notation of "God save the queen" and my explanatory notes and he understood it without difficulty.

So, you don't need expensive software to notate metres and rhythm really.
You only need to include in Literotica's allowance of HTML code to the user the facility to input frames in any of his posts and then I could give some real examples of what this is all about.
If you are interested I can email you with the same materials I've sent to Tsotha.
:)
 

Whose wood this is I think I know.
His wife is in the village though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his wood fill up with snow.



It's great that the Internet let us learn Frost poetry. But I don't understand the last word "snow". Is it there just for the sake of rhyme and meter? Or is Frost making an allusion to his name Frost. Please everybody, help!

*********************

PS. The plural woods in the title: Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening, sounds so perverted. And starting with the second stanza it gets even more so, true Literotica.

Clever observation, Seena, alluding to the mood of the narrator perhaps been "snowy" as his name is.
I am not sure if this is the case, but I definitely think that "snow" is not put there for the shake of rhyming only.
BTW, in L2 of this stanza is the reference made to "his house" as per Tzara's example or to "his wife" as per yours?
The meaning (in my opinion) may not change drastically by either word, but the "expressive" style does change by the choice of word.
Interested to know what others think.
 
Here's a famous example of a dactylic meter, by Alfred, Lord Tennyson:

The Charge of the Light Brigade

Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
"Forward, the Light Brigade!
"Charge for the guns!" he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.

Flash'd all their sabres bare,
Flash'd as they turn'd in air,
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army, while
All the world wonder'd:
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right thro' the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reel'd from the sabre stroke
Shatter'd and sunder'd.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro' the jaws of Death
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.

When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wondered.
Honour the charge they made,
Honour the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred.​
As with the Byron poem, the individual lines vary a bit, but the overall meter is dactylic dimeter:
Can·non to / right of them,
Can·non to / left of them,
Can·non in / front of them
Vol·ley'd and / thun·der'd;​
In the Longfellow poem, the trochaic meter is intended to evoke the sound of drumming. Here the dactylic meter evokes the sound of a galloping horse.

At least that's my assumption about why the meter was chosen.
 
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