TxRad
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Masculinity, what's the best kind?
- Thread starter NOIRTRASH
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HandsInTheDark
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Gender exists for complex reproduction; evolution doesn't bother with gender where it's not needed. Generally if you need a complicated orgasm capable of a lot of variation, males and females having sex is a good way to generate the necessary genetic diversity. That's what gender is and what it is for, biologically speaking.
Masculinity and femininity are the perception of fitness for successful mating with one (ideally more) of the other gender. A guy walks into a room and most of the women look at him and squirm or sigh - he's masculine. Because if he's getting the women wet, he's demonstrating that he's perceived as capable to get a lot of reproduction done.
(I realise this comes close to the argument that women get to define masculinity. I don't agree with that if it means women making conscious decisions about what they THINK should be masculine. It's got nothing to do with thinking and a lot to do with heart rate and wet pussies.)
It doesn't have to be based on physical appearance. In one culture, a man might be judged by his ability to slap other people around and issue commands in a loud voice. In another, providing and nurturing his offspring makes him attractive. In a third it might be intellectualism and problem-solving. In almost all of them it's wealth, because providing for offspring got wired in by evolution as an important aspect of reproduction - if you (as a human) can't care for what you spawn, sex is wasted energy in evolution's eyes.
One hundred years ago I might have been comfortable giving a more definitive list. Ability to navigate, resolve conflict with fists if needed, knowing when to take charge and when to yield to higher authority, ability to provide reliably... those were winning cards in most of western civilization's eyes.
But technology and the beginnings of overpopulation (or maybe just too much labor and not enough work) have started to erode that list - hard. You don't need to be a skilled traveller when there's a GPS in your pocket and you don't need direction sense because you're not hunting. Anyone can google how to use a tool and tools are motorized and don't require strength - in fact, accuracy and dexterity are key to some jobs now, and smaller hands become an advantage. Assertiveness is still useful (if nothing else for getting a job and keeping it), but I wonder if even that will fade as most labor is done with machines and the rich learn to do without human labor entirely. If there's no jobs available to argue and fight for, who cares how assertive you are? In some sense assertiveness just makes you poor AND a jackass.
tl;dr - being manly used to be a recognizable and commonly understood aspect that most people agreed on. But as technology makes everyone able to do anything, the distinction is breaking down. As making babies becomes less important, clear gender roles aren't necessary. It will take a long time for the lessons beaten into us by evolution made out, so there's still plenty of women around to sigh at larger, louder, more assertive males (love me some hunter, their genes say) or capable problem solvers who can provide value and wealth (love me some artisan). But with current trends, I think gender will literally fade in importance. Our grandchildren might be a lot more sexually.. vague.. than we are.
Contentious case in point: homosexuality has become acceptable in much of western civ. That wasn't even conceivable even 200 years ago. They were at best sick (illness=reproductive failures), and more likely targets of violence (winnowing out the reproductive failures). We like to think we're so much more enlightened - wow, look at us now, we're ok with gay sex because we're so wise and tolerant.
My guess is that's not why beating on gays is going out of style. It's masculinity itself that's becoming less important, less well defined, more vague - due to technology. It's not as important who's gay anymore so it's better tolerated. In parts of the world where technology hasn't done as much to make the genders equally effective at everything, and social pressures aren't yet making babies less desirable, gays still get kicked around. We're not more tolerant out of moral superiority - we just don't care about masculinity being defined in terms of reproductive fitness as much anymore.
Unisex world ahead - three hundred years. I'm glad I will not live to see it.
Masculinity and femininity are the perception of fitness for successful mating with one (ideally more) of the other gender. A guy walks into a room and most of the women look at him and squirm or sigh - he's masculine. Because if he's getting the women wet, he's demonstrating that he's perceived as capable to get a lot of reproduction done.
(I realise this comes close to the argument that women get to define masculinity. I don't agree with that if it means women making conscious decisions about what they THINK should be masculine. It's got nothing to do with thinking and a lot to do with heart rate and wet pussies.)
It doesn't have to be based on physical appearance. In one culture, a man might be judged by his ability to slap other people around and issue commands in a loud voice. In another, providing and nurturing his offspring makes him attractive. In a third it might be intellectualism and problem-solving. In almost all of them it's wealth, because providing for offspring got wired in by evolution as an important aspect of reproduction - if you (as a human) can't care for what you spawn, sex is wasted energy in evolution's eyes.
One hundred years ago I might have been comfortable giving a more definitive list. Ability to navigate, resolve conflict with fists if needed, knowing when to take charge and when to yield to higher authority, ability to provide reliably... those were winning cards in most of western civilization's eyes.
But technology and the beginnings of overpopulation (or maybe just too much labor and not enough work) have started to erode that list - hard. You don't need to be a skilled traveller when there's a GPS in your pocket and you don't need direction sense because you're not hunting. Anyone can google how to use a tool and tools are motorized and don't require strength - in fact, accuracy and dexterity are key to some jobs now, and smaller hands become an advantage. Assertiveness is still useful (if nothing else for getting a job and keeping it), but I wonder if even that will fade as most labor is done with machines and the rich learn to do without human labor entirely. If there's no jobs available to argue and fight for, who cares how assertive you are? In some sense assertiveness just makes you poor AND a jackass.
tl;dr - being manly used to be a recognizable and commonly understood aspect that most people agreed on. But as technology makes everyone able to do anything, the distinction is breaking down. As making babies becomes less important, clear gender roles aren't necessary. It will take a long time for the lessons beaten into us by evolution made out, so there's still plenty of women around to sigh at larger, louder, more assertive males (love me some hunter, their genes say) or capable problem solvers who can provide value and wealth (love me some artisan). But with current trends, I think gender will literally fade in importance. Our grandchildren might be a lot more sexually.. vague.. than we are.
Contentious case in point: homosexuality has become acceptable in much of western civ. That wasn't even conceivable even 200 years ago. They were at best sick (illness=reproductive failures), and more likely targets of violence (winnowing out the reproductive failures). We like to think we're so much more enlightened - wow, look at us now, we're ok with gay sex because we're so wise and tolerant.
My guess is that's not why beating on gays is going out of style. It's masculinity itself that's becoming less important, less well defined, more vague - due to technology. It's not as important who's gay anymore so it's better tolerated. In parts of the world where technology hasn't done as much to make the genders equally effective at everything, and social pressures aren't yet making babies less desirable, gays still get kicked around. We're not more tolerant out of moral superiority - we just don't care about masculinity being defined in terms of reproductive fitness as much anymore.
Unisex world ahead - three hundred years. I'm glad I will not live to see it.
NOIRTRASH
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I agree with you somewhat but part company with some of your particulars.
We havent changed much in the last 10,000 years. Some of whats socially chich these days I don't appreciate, and must make analogies to understand. Like...hands and feet are useful for all kinds on intents and purposes. A penis serves a few purposes....put outta fire, urinate, sex, breeding. Almost 50 years ago I learned something called LATERAL THINKING and I've been a devotee since then. It helps me diversify my constructs about the meanings of things.
I believe a penis can mean different things to the average woman, dependent on the outcome she wants. I also believe Mother Nature is an efficiency expert because she tends to make her things analogous to Swiss army knives.
But mostly I believe we exist to get our genes into the next generation. So while we can fuck up and fuck off and fuck our buddies, such activities are sideshows of the human circus NOT whats happening under the big tent in the center ring.
lovecraft68
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Years ago my foster father summed it up best when he told me and a couple of my cousins who like me, were a couple of crazy little punks from shitty homes, this about being a man
"Being a real man is never caring bout being a real man"
Corny, but true
"Being a real man is never caring bout being a real man"
Corny, but true
H
HandsInTheDark
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I agree this is true. I just think that we happen to be at the beginning of more rapid change, at least rapid by evolutionary standards. Technology has advanced to the point where it's starting to disable the rudder of evolution for humans - a process that started when we discovered fire, but it's taking off now. And as genetic modification gets big - and it will - we'll more or less replace evolution entirely. Given how evolution optimises life over aeons and humans tend to optimise for economics in five minute windows... that might turn out to be a big problem.
Most of what I talked about won't really kick in until babymaking goes out of style in a big way. If you look at this curve, we aren't there yet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Population_curve.svg
But if you look at more recent data, the curve is starting to bend the other way, and given this rock we're on has finite living space, that trend will continue. Evolution is hitting a wall, facing real downward pressure for the first time. We've had a good 10,000 year run, but I think changes are ahead. Again, I'm hoping I won't live to see a lot of it.
NOIRTRASH
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Females like pregnancy too much.
NOIRTRASH
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What he said is the end not the beginning.
J_R_Ashunwhy
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the satire was lost
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rjordan
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Good post. The original statement and your avatar were perplexing. This makes it clear.
I made some of the same points, i.e. most of the attributes defining masculinity in this thread were equally applicable to women so they didn't define masculinity at all.
I have a large collection of Makita power tools. Every one of them belonged to my late wife! Not many women would have thrilled to a Makita palm router under the Christmas tree, but she did. She was ultra-feminine, tiny (5', #100) and extremely creative. She used woodworking and stained glass to express herself.
rj
NOIRTRASH
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Females are dependent on electricity and birth control. In a sheet metal shop they cant lift the bending blade on a sheet metal brake or bend 1/8th inch metal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH-3K-KochU
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rjordan
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Similar to "show, don't tell". Act like a human being. Those masculine or feminine attributes that are relevant will come out. Machisimo won't be relevant or necessary.
rj
rjordan
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Were fork lifts and overhead cranes invented because women couldn't lift large rolls or pallets of sheet metal? Maybe you weren't as manly, by your definition, as you thought being dependent on electricity and propane for those jobs.
BTW, there were to bantamweight women in the news last week (Holly Holm and Ronda Rousey) who I would be willing to bet could kick the ass of every biological male on this forum--in a miniskirt and Legerdemer's shoes. Who would be the man in that fight?
rj
H
HandsInTheDark
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Humans are. Watch people in America try to function when the power goes out. I ended up buying a generator so I could continue to have running hot water and food that didn't spoil in three days, and I'm less dependent than some. There are not many people who successfully live off grid and they don't attract many mates anymore.
And nothing's quite a lost as a guy without access to birth control. She might get *pregnant*? Forget that, that will get me in court paying for baby care. Porn's easy and free and there's no backtalk.
And I don't see many of you bangng out stories on a manual typewriter.
Face it, technology is here to stay and it's very de-genderizing. A metalwork shop without hydraulics to run things can't compete with a modern shop, and women pull levers as well as men.
In a sense gender is being stripped down to purely biological differences; male is becoming simply a shorthand for sperm donor; nothing else defines him as male anymore. A lot of women don't like this trend in my experience (though some love it); the ones who don't like it seem to be the ones who gravitate to my stories, where men still call the shots (sometimes badly, but they do it) and women like it (sometimes happily, sometimes Or Else). But there's no denying it's a view of the past, not a view of the future.
lovecraft68
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Good story for your post.
My best friend is not handy at all, a screw gun is foreign to him. His wife on the other hand is the daughter of a carpenter and took up the trade as a hobby, she has a work shop to die for.
We're over for a party once and my friend's father is talking to his daughter in law and he compliments her and she says "Am I the daughter you never had?" and he says, what do you mean, I have a daughter-points at his son,-he's right there!
The old school man type of joke, but pretty funny.
lovecraft68
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Yeah and in my dojo there's a woman in her late thirties who has whipped everyone of us in the ring, sparring. Maybe me and the other guys have a sheer strength advantage, but in martial arts that doesn't mean a whole lot if the other person is that fast and that proficient.
It amazes me how some men think everything has to be a man(or woman) would be better at it because of generalizations
I've played in both dart and eight ball leagues for over twenty five years and there are plenty of women in both leagues and there are guys who still insist a woman can't be as good...
Why? Strength(the one edge men usually have-usually as in in general, I know there are exceptions) is a non factor in those games. Darts weigh in grams and pool cues in ounces. Its about aim, skill and strategy. Edge...not gender specific.
lovecraft68
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Humans are. Watch people in America try to function when the power goes out. I ended up buying a generator so I could continue to have running hot water and food that didn't spoil in three days, and I'm less dependent than some. There are not many people who successfully live off grid and they don't attract many mates anymore.
And nothing's quite a lost as a guy without access to birth control. She might get *pregnant*? Forget that, that will get me in court paying for baby care. Porn's easy and free and there's no backtalk.
And I don't see many of you bangng out stories on a manual typewriter.
Face it, technology is here to stay and it's very de-genderizing. A metalwork shop without hydraulics to run things can't compete with a modern shop, and women pull levers as well as men.
In a sense gender is being stripped down to purely biological differences; male is becoming simply a shorthand for sperm donor; nothing else defines him as male anymore. A lot of women don't like this trend in my experience (though some love it); the ones who don't like it seem to be the ones who gravitate to my stories, where men still call the shots (sometimes badly, but they do it) and women like it (sometimes happily, sometimes Or Else). But there's no denying it's a view of the past, not a view of the future.
The very definition of masculinity has returned from his week ago "I'm leaving"
No back talk
And of course all his stories are men calling the shots, its all he knows because its the way it should be. So, real man quoted here for purposes of thread discussion. Guys like this think they are real men and guys like me are pussies for lame ass reasons like I 'let' the wife drive the car when we go out sometimes or I don't spend all my time telling my wife her 'place'
But as I have seen many times over many years when it comes down to it, they're not the ones left standing when their 'real man' egos push them to try to show how masculine they are.
NOIRTRASH
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In Vietnam I saw a huge nigger we called GENTLE BEN sucker punch the Korean martial arts instructor, and knock him out. Plenty think martial arts is bull shit.
AlwaysHungry
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I should probably get a new avatar, one that conjures up an idealized picture of me, rather than just an image that I find arousing. Perhaps I'll go with a Chippendale's dancer.
rjordan
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There doesn't seem to be any way to define masculinity by physical attributes. There's too much overlap in capabilities to see any difference.
There doesn't seem to be any way to define masculinity by intelligence either for the same reason.
But there are differences other than the obvious physical equipment.
I don't know which are inherent and which are cultural, but there are differences in temperment. Men are generally more aggressive than women, though it isn't universal.
Men are generally more likely to be risk takers, again not universally.
Women seem to be more likely to be consensus builders. More nurturing. More tolerant of pain. More..lots of things, again not universally.
So maybe a definition of masculinity, if it is even useful, would have to look at those differences.
rj
There doesn't seem to be any way to define masculinity by intelligence either for the same reason.
But there are differences other than the obvious physical equipment.
I don't know which are inherent and which are cultural, but there are differences in temperment. Men are generally more aggressive than women, though it isn't universal.
Men are generally more likely to be risk takers, again not universally.
Women seem to be more likely to be consensus builders. More nurturing. More tolerant of pain. More..lots of things, again not universally.
So maybe a definition of masculinity, if it is even useful, would have to look at those differences.
rj
NOIRTRASH
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Sure there is. The very best female will always place around #600 on lists of male athletes. The gal may kick my sissy ass but she wont come near the best males.
My old lady wears the pants around here, but I unloose the lids on the peanut butter jars.
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le_kitty
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There's a niche for everything. The problem with the past is that women had no choice in the matter.
sr71plt
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I think you need to go half a century into the past for that degree of imbalance to be true. You only need to see how men have been depicted in TV situation comedies since the 1950s to understand that.
rjordan
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rjordan
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True, but weird, because there were virtually no women allowed in writing rooms, and few women that I can remember were showrunners. Even now women in those jobs are a small minority. So you have to wonder what was driving that.
rj
rjordan
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I should probably get a new avatar, one that conjures up an idealized picture of me, rather than just an image that I find arousing. Perhaps I'll go with a Chippendale's dancer.
If that avatar is your Chippendale's choice, enjoy your retirement.
rj
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