COVID-19 RESOURCES
LIT CAMS (200 Free Tokens)ADULT TOYSVOD MOVIES

Healthy Sub

All_4_Love said:
Okay, I hear you. So, basically we are back to the same argument here. Because my reality does not match your reality, it's offensive to you.

I am sorry if that comes off as cocky. It's frustrating for me. I never ever expected my sig to be offensive to anyone. I am literally in shock over this. I don't even know what to say. I'll take the sig off, but it seems to me that the damage has already been done.

I just can't wrap my mind around it, Stray.

So, now I'm in tears. My sig is gone. I am devastated at how I've been treated here and the fact that I unknowingly and inadvertently offended so many others. And, KP, you have your wish. I won't be posting anymore in the BDSM forum. And, no Netz, it's not because I am taking my toys and going home. It's because I have a fucking heart and I am sick and tired of it being trampled on. I never wanted to offend anyone here. I wanted to make friends.

And on second thought, there are really very few here that I would want to be friends with anyway.
Click to expand...

Girl, you are taking this way too seriously. You can't please all the people all the time, or even any of the people most of the time.

Everyone has their own view. I personally don't agree or "get" your view of a submissive, but I have no problem with you having your view. I suspect most others on site feel the same. Keep your sig if it makes you happy. :)

In a perfect world everyone would be polite and be simpatico with your ideas. That’s not going to happen here. Posting opens the floor for discussion, and not everyone is going to agree with your posts. If you can’t tolerate disagreement, not posting is probably a good idea.

You should know by now that there is a hardcore group of regulars that have no tolerance for any any view other than their own (not you SK :rose:). ANY rudeness or personal attack is justified in their mind if they don’t agree with you. Don’t respond to their posts! Put them on ignore if they really bother you. There is a plethora of people here to interact with, feel free to pick and choose.

Seriously. It’s the internet. It’s easy to tune out the haters.
 
Endless_Night said:
I personally don't agree or "get" your view of a submissive, but I have no problem with you having your view.
Click to expand...

Hundred times this.

My only gripe is with dominant male author of certain text trying to assume what is healthy or not in female submissive.
 
StrayKat said:
Hundred times this.

My only gripe is with dominant male author of certain text trying to assume what is healthy or not in female submissive.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I get it. :) It's the "healthy" tag. Sticking that on almost implies anything that doesn't fall in that range is "unhealthy". Probably not what the author meant, but easy to take that way if one is so inclined. I went there too. :)
 
StrayKat said:
No, please understand, it has nothing to do with your reality, it has to do with the quote you posted that implies how those who are not <all what is written there> somehow unhealthy and damaged.
You dont see how that can be offensive?
Click to expand...

I am trying, Stray. I really am. I don't see things that way. I don't have to understand it. If my sig is hurtful to others, then I will take it off. If it's offensive to others, then I don't want to remove it. If it's offensive to you, it's gone. End of story. I'm over it. I'll find another sig.

Endless_Night said:
Girl, you are taking this way too seriously. You can't please all the people all the time, or even any of the people most of the time.
Click to expand...

Thank you, EN. I understand what you're saying here.

You should know by now that there is a hardcore group of regulars that have no tolerance for any any view other than their own (not you SK :rose:). ANY rudeness or personal attack is justified in their mind if they don’t agree with you. Don’t respond to their posts! Put them on ignore if they really bother you. There is a plethora of people here to interact with, feel free to pick and choose.

Seriously. It’s the internet. It’s easy to tune out the haters.
Click to expand...

And thank you, again, for this. I could care less if anyone here agreed with me. I know this is brash, but if you read #14, that will explain to you what I care about. As long as the other person in my TPE experience agrees, then that is really all that matters to me. That being said, there have been many personal attacks. Some of them have even been indirect. I am no fool. I see the comments being made. I am hurt, very much so, but I will recover.

Thank you.
 
Endless_Night said:
Yeah, I get it. :) It's the "healthy" tag. Sticking that on almost implies anything that doesn't fall in that range is "unhealthy". Probably not what the author meant, but easy to take that way if one is so inclined. I went there too. :)
Click to expand...

I would say a lot of people are so inclined because our sexual preferences indeed differ from what we were taught by society is "normal". I would dare say most of us were lost in some period of our lives and wondering "what the hell is wrong with me". It is very easy to go on defensive in such situation.

It hurts even more when somebody "in the circle", not even the vanilla outsider, starts to claim norms of normality and parameters of healthy. They should really know better than to use certain phrases, no matter if they meant it or not.
 
All_4_Love said:
I am trying, Stray. I really am. I don't see things that way. I don't have to understand it. If my sig is hurtful to others, then I will take it off. If it's offensive to others, then I don't want to remove it. If it's offensive to you, it's gone. End of story. I'm over it. I'll find another sig.



Thank you, EN. I understand what you're saying here.



And thank you, again, for this. I could care less if anyone here agreed with me. I know this is brash, but if you read #14, that will explain to you what I care about. As long as the other person in my TPE experience agrees, then that is really all that matters to me. That being said, there have been many personal attacks. Some of them have even been indirect. I am no fool. I see the comments being made. I am hurt, very much so, but I will recover.

Thank you.
Click to expand...

Glad you came back don't let any of us get to you. If it works for you and those you play with who gives a fuck what others think. Personally I have never found any written stuff that validates my sexuality that I would feel so much for, just some things that stop me feeling a total freak.

In the end being around like minded people and seeing how sub dom relationships can work helps more than anything else at least for me. Talk to people who help and work for you and fuck the rest of us (in a bad way)

Sorry if my reaction to the quote hurt you. I just think you should have every chance to find things that help. The only time it really matters why we develop into who we are is if you wanna control or avoid it I assume none of us are serial killers so who cares.
 
All_4_Love said:
Validation is not a bad word, or a bad thing. If you don’t search for or feel a need for validation, you’re not human. We have to do the inner work, be whole, and give our own selves that validation, but to act as if there’s something wrong with seeking it outside of yourself, such as in an article, is ludicrous. It’s not self destructive. It’s constructive.
Click to expand...
If your validation invalidates others, it isn't very constuctive and yes it is a bad thing for those others.
This way of constructing a dichotomy where there doesn't have to be one may feel good for a while but at the same time create the very questions this thread started with, because some people will feel compelled to fit in with what this guy thinks is healthy and therefor meeting his approval.


All_4_Love said:
It’s a very easy article for someone like myself to comprehend. In simpler terms, “If you have ever wondered why you are the way that you are, read this, I have a theory”. If that theory resonates with you (like it did me) you are going to feel validated. Again, there’s nothing wrong with that at all.
Click to expand...
Yes, if you decide to believe in any theory that makes you feel good, you might as well believe in the horoscope thing or numerology or whatever.

All_4_Love said:
What makes a woman a submissive?

As with all conjectures about human development, the answer is likely twofold: a combination of nature and nurture, biology and environment.

This basically snuffs out the nature versus nurture debate. This makes sense to me. The author never says that you can directly observe different characteristics in a baby and determine whether the baby will be submissive.
Click to expand...
The nature versus nurture debate has been properly snuffed for a really long time.
We don't need anyone on the internet, whose only credentials that we know anything about are that they write on the internet and think a lot of themselves, to clear that up for us.

All_4_Love said:
Yes, it has, indeed, sparked an interesting conversation. That is what it should have done from the start. I hope that there was something that resonated with you in my first response back to you in this thread. Someone else here posted about being a "whole" person. I could not agree more with that statement.

In my experience, being submissive is not a choice. Submitting, however, is a choice. I am not good at initiating things, or "handling" things. It takes a tremendous amount of effort for me to do so. I am naturally a follower and a responder. That is how I function at my best.
Click to expand...
Again, "whole" is one of those words that have no real universal meaning in this context. I do know what a whole cookie is and I'm pretty sure that most people will be able to agree on that. A "whole" person - I'm pretty sure we don't have the same idea in our head about that one.
 
StrayKat said:
I would say a lot of people are so inclined because our sexual preferences indeed differ from what we were taught by society is "normal". I would dare say most of us were lost in some period of our lives and wondering "what the hell is wrong with me". It is very easy to go on defensive in such situation.

It hurts even more when somebody "in the circle", not even the vanilla outsider, starts to claim norms of normality and parameters of healthy. They should really know better than to use certain phrases, no matter if they meant it or not.
Click to expand...

Sorry StrayKat but no one in our group dared to say what a healthy sub was. All_4_Love did not start this thread I did. It did not originally include the quote from "The Healthy Submissive" because that was not the original intent of the thread. The intent was and still is to open a dialogue on what submission is to each individual sub. No one can define that but the sub herself/himself. I am sorry that you find the article and by extension the sig offensive. I do not and it was never the intention to upset you. I understand that the article was written by a "dominant man" and that may be difficult to accept. I guess my question is if he was a DOM and was regularly exposed to one or more subs is he not entitled to have an opinion about submission. The right to voice an opinion different from others is cherished here in our country and dissent is also cherished. I have spoken with many subs and just speaking for myself I know that I did spend some time in my life trying to determine if even being a sub was a "healthy" endeavor but also where my need to submit came from. I do not have all the answers so i simply posed a question and asked for feedback. The original thread is......


What constitutes a healthy submissive? Is it the choice to submit.....the choice to follow......the choice to obey etc?

Or are we all just a little damaged in someway and this is how we cope?

Please respond and give me your feedback

D

This post was all about a subs opportunity for choices

Thanks
.
 
cmslt2326 said:
Sorry StrayKat but no one in our group dared to say what a healthy sub was. All_4_Love did not start this thread I did. It did not originally include the quote from "The Healthy Submissive" because that was not the original intent of the thread. The intent was and still is to open a dialogue on what submission is to each individual sub. No one can define that but the sub herself/himself. I am sorry that you find the article and by extension the sig offensive. I do not and it was never the intention to upset you. I understand that the article was written by a "dominant man" and that may be difficult to accept. I guess my question is if he was a DOM and was regularly exposed to one or more subs is he not entitled to have an opinion about submission. The right to voice an opinion different from others is cherished here in our country and dissent is also cherished. I have spoken with many subs and just speaking for myself I know that I did spend some time in my life trying to determine if even being a sub was a "healthy" endeavor but also where my need to submit came from. I do not have all the answers so i simply posed a question and asked for feedback. The original thread is......


What constitutes a healthy submissive? Is it the choice to submit.....the choice to follow......the choice to obey etc?

Or are we all just a little damaged in someway and this is how we cope?

Please respond and give me your feedback

D

This post was all about a subs opportunity for choices

Thanks
.
Click to expand...

The author of that text dares boldly.
To answer your question, the term "healthy" is hopelessly fuzzy. Unless it makes you break out in fever over 42 degrees C and/or renders you unable to handle your life, you are probably ok. We will still disagree about what constitutes "handling your life" and "ok".
 
IrisAlthea said:
The author of that text dares boldly.
To answer your question, the term "healthy" is hopelessly fuzzy. Unless it makes you break out in fever over 42 degrees C and/or renders you unable to handle your life, you are probably ok. We will still disagree about what constitutes "handling your life" and "ok".
Click to expand...

Actually healthy is not fuzzy it is open to interpretation which is exactly what was intended. Nowhere in any of my posts will you see the words ok or handling my life. I did not use them because I did not mean them. I find it interesting that you disagree with words I have never used and if posing a question and asking for feedback is daring then so be it. Lots of daring souls on this site then.

Thanks
 
cmslt2326 said:
Sorry StrayKat but no one in our group dared to say what a healthy sub was. All_4_Love did not start this thread I did.
Click to expand...

I know who started the thread and I know the title and the question was about "healthy" sub and "damaged" sub. So how can you say none dared to say that when expected answers were exactly that?

It did not originally include the quote from "The Healthy Submissive" because that was not the original intent of the thread. The intent was and still is to open a dialogue on what submission is to each individual sub.
Click to expand...

The quote was included later to make the point of the thread and mentioned as a reason for starting the thread in first place. By you.
If your intent was to open a dialog on what submission is for different people, why did you start a thread called and focused on "healthy"?

No one can define that but the sub herself/himself. I am sorry that you find the article and by extension the sig offensive. I do not and it was never the intention to upset you. I understand that the article was written by a "dominant man" and that may be difficult to accept.
Click to expand...

I am not upset, I am angry.
And you may damn well assume it is impossible to accept any "dominant man" trying to set parameters for my sexual health. And I dont think anyone is entitled to my acceptance unless I decide they are. No matter how you feel about it.

I guess my question is if he was a DOM and was regularly exposed to one or more subs is he not entitled to have an opinion about submission.
Click to expand...

Everyone is entitled to opinion. None is entitled to proclaim something is healthy or damaged unless they are your personal therapist and have shitload of knowledge and experience. He is just a dom, not DOM for me. All I know about him is what I read there and since I dislike what he wrote I dislike him too. I am entitled to that as well.

The right to voice an opinion different from others is cherished here in our country and dissent is also cherished.
Click to expand...

Meaning what exactly? I am not in your country and I voiced my disagreement with your premises. So what is your point?

I have spoken with many subs and just speaking for myself I know that I did spend some time in my life trying to determine if even being a sub was a "healthy" endeavor but also where my need to submit came from. I do not have all the answers so i simply posed a question and asked for feedback.
Click to expand...

And even after spending time in life full of doubts about your own health you cant understand why someone gets pissed with some keyboard warrior stating what is healthy and what not?

This post was all about a subs opportunity for choices
Click to expand...

My disagreement is all about the quote you posted in your thread as the one only gospel truth. If you want to talk about something else please say so.
 
Seriously, this is like someone posting "I think Anthony Bourdain is a dick and Guy Fieri and his stupid pepper laced meat schtick is fucking awesome" and me taking it personally and garnering a hundred pages.

Why does it matter whether it's the Bible, Three Dog Night lyrics, a LolCat or Shakespeare - it's out there for other people to read and discuss. It's not about *you*

I think there's an insurmountable gap in some people's minds between agreeing that it's OK for people to have a view or love something they don't - and having to treat the thing they disagree with with kid glove reverence and preciousness and never *actively* criticize anything. Ever. Even if they have firsthand bad experience with the same thing then they should STFU because wah.

Um, no.
 
Last edited:
StrayKat said:
I know who started the thread and I know the title and the question was about "healthy" sub and "damaged" sub. So how can you say none dared to say that when expected answers were exactly that?



The quote was included later to make the point of the thread and mentioned as a reason for starting the thread in first place. By you.
If your intent was to open a dialog on what submission is for different people, why did you start a thread called and focused on "healthy"?



I am not upset, I am angry.
And you may damn well assume it is impossible to accept any "dominant man" trying to set parameters for my sexual health. And I dont think anyone is entitled to my acceptance unless I decide they are. No matter how you feel about it.



Everyone is entitled to opinion. None is entitled to proclaim something is healthy or damaged unless they are your personal therapist and have shitload of knowledge and experience. He is just a dom, not DOM for me. All I know about him is what I read there and since I dislike what he wrote I dislike him too. I am entitled to that as well.



Meaning what exactly? I am not in your country and I voiced my disagreement with your premises. So what is your point?



And even after spending time in life full of doubts about your own health you cant understand why someone gets pissed with some keyboard warrior stating what is healthy and what not?



My disagreement is all about the quote you posted in your thread as the one only gospel truth. If you want to talk about something else please say so.
Click to expand...

No keyboard Warrior here just someone interested in open feedback. You will notice AGAIN I point out that there are question marks at the end of QUESTIONS. There is not a statement anywhere in the original post just QUESTIONS. i am sorry you are "pissed off" as you state but that is not the intent of this thread and frankly you are entitled to your feelings and I am entitled to mine. I did not say any sub anywhere is damaged I posed a QUESTION about coping.

So sorry you can not distinguish between questions and statements but there was not one of the latter in my original thread. I do not assume anything about what you feel unlike yourself towards me.


You will notice I said DISSENT was also cherished in "MY" country as you put it. You have every right to not accept any view of YOUR submission but your own which I have repeatedly said. You DO NOT have the right to tell me how to view mine. The last time I looked the gentleman who wrote the original article never ONCE told YOU how to view your sexual health. I have NEVER made a statement concerning health only posed a question and I did it BECAUSE of the questions I as a sub have asked myself. There is no "gospel truth" stated in my quote because there were no STATEMENTS only questions.

I have no problem with YOUR dissagreement of the premise and that is exactly what I was interested in hearing when I started this thread. I was looking for DIFFERENT points of view.
I am sorry to say I disagree with much of what you have said especially when you bring another
LIT subscriber into the fray when the original post was not hers. Hurting her feelings in no way enhances your argument here.
 
CutieMouse said:
Yep.

I think the thing that made me go "Whaaaa?" so hard, is that out of 5 children, none fit the author's theory that behavior in infancy can help determine a person's submissive potential.

#1 - spectrum disorder, but weirdly social even as a toddler (for someone with a spectrum disorder)

#2 - the world's most intense, challenging, high maintenance, difficult, demanding infant and toddler... who is currently a very people pleasing, quiet, sensitive to facial expressions/ vocal tones young adult with traits that might be classified as "submissive" by the typical meme.

#3 - calmest, quietest, most responsive to faces/ vocal tones of the bunch [as an infant/ toddler]... as a young adult, she could give a rat's ass about disappointing anyone.

#4 - engineer extraordinaire from the age of 12 months, constantly in trouble/ danger until he was 5-ish... and currently the most straight and narrow, do the right thing, cater-to-everyone's needs kid in the bunch.

#5 - Very similar to #1 as an infant and toddler, and continuing to be demanding as hell (as a 10 year old). God knows what his personality will be as he grows.
Click to expand...



Global warming is a lie, it snowed here last winter!
 
SKU-FORMAT-56550-i-came-out-to-have-a-good-time-and-im-honestly-feeling-so-attacked-right-now.jpg
 
cmslt2326 said:
No keyboard Warrior here just someone interested in open feedback. You will notice AGAIN I point out that there are question marks at the end of QUESTIONS. There is not a statement anywhere in the original post just QUESTIONS. i am sorry you are "pissed off" as you state but that is not the intent of this thread and frankly you are entitled to your feelings and I am entitled to mine. I did not say any sub anywhere is damaged I posed a QUESTION about coping.

So sorry you can not distinguish between questions and statements but there was not one of the latter in my original thread. I do not assume anything about what you feel unlike yourself towards me.


You will notice I said DISSENT was also cherished in "MY" country as you put it. You have every right to not accept any view of YOUR submission but your own which I have repeatedly said. You DO NOT have the right to tell me how to view mine. The last time I looked the gentleman who wrote the original article never ONCE told YOU how to view your sexual health. I have NEVER made a statement concerning health only posed a question and I did it BECAUSE of the questions I as a sub have asked myself. There is no "gospel truth" stated in my quote because there were no STATEMENTS only questions.

I have no problem with YOUR dissagreement of the premise and that is exactly what I was interested in hearing when I started this thread. I was looking for DIFFERENT points of view.
I am sorry to say I disagree with much of what you have said especially when you bring another
LIT subscriber into the fray when the original post was not hers. Hurting her feelings in no way enhances your argument here.
Click to expand...

Dude, you are getting dissent.

You are getting dissent from a mainstream view of male/female sexuality that says "boys dom girls sub natural" and it's every.fucking.where.in.the.world.

Dissent is not agreement with the "oh no, M/f power flow is natural" meme. That's pretty much taught the second you pop out the womb to everybody.
 
Primalex said:
Global warming is a lie, it snowed here last winter!
Click to expand...

Red skies at night, that's why the polar ice caps are melting. Both observable and true and completely unfucking related.
 
Last edited:
Netzach said:
Dude, you are getting dissent.

You are getting dissent from a mainstream view of male/female sexuality that says "boys dom girls sub natural" and it's every.fucking.where.in.the.world.

Dissent is not agreement with the "oh no, M/f power flow is natural" meme. That's pretty much taught the second you pop out the womb to everybody.
Click to expand...

Self-love is revolutionary, sure. M/f sure as hell isn't. Not sure why this is such a hard pill to swallow.

We've got f-subs all up in fretting about being "normal" and as soon as someone tells them that their kink ain't so kinky, suddenly being accused of normalcy is a personal attack.
 
KoPilot said:
Self-love is revolutionary, sure. M/f sure as hell isn't. Not sure why this is such a hard pill to swallow.
Click to expand...

The version that is sounds more like I'm a fucked up puppy in a fucked up world baby, so sue me.
 
KoPilot said:
We've got f-subs all up in fretting about being "normal" and as soon as someone tells them that their kink ain't so kinky, suddenly being accused of normalcy is a personal attack.
Click to expand...

This. Even I know my life would be harder if I were actually a *really* special snowflake. I ain't.
 
Netzach said:
Dude, you are getting dissent.

You are getting dissent from a mainstream view of male/female sexuality that says "boys dom girls sub natural" and it's every.fucking.where.in.the.world.

Dissent is not agreement with the "oh no, M/f power flow is natural" meme. That's pretty much taught the second you pop out the womb to everybody.
Click to expand...

I am aware that I am getting dissent. I was hoping for it and I have no mainstream view of submission. Quite honestly you have no idea what my views are on M/f power or F/m power for that matter. As a sub I am WELL aware of what "society" says about m/f sexuality. In my original post there were no gender references to DOM's or subs because I am very aware that in the world we live in today there can be both male and female DOMs and subs.

Thank you for your constructive feedback.
 
cmslt2326 said:
especially when you bring another
LIT subscriber into the fray when the original post was not hers. Hurting her feelings in no way enhances your argument here.
Click to expand...

I am tired of all this bickering without any point. I said what I had to say and I really have no patience for all that passive aggressive shit. You can go on thinking and saying whatever you want, IN ALL CAPS IF YOU SO PREFER.

I cant pass on this tho - where did I bring anyone into anything, can you point that out for me?
 
Netzach said:
Seriously, this is like someone posting "I think Anthony Bourdain is a dick and Guy Fieri and his stupid pepper laced meat schtick is fucking awesome" and me taking it personally and garnering a hundred pages.

Why does it matter whether it's the Bible, Three Dog Night lyrics, a LolCat or Shakespeare - it's out there for other people to read and discuss. It's not about *you*

I think there's an insurmountable gap in some people's minds between agreeing that it's OK for people to have a view or love something they don't - and having to treat the thing they disagree with with kid glove reverence and preciousness and never *actively* criticize anything. Ever. Even if they have firsthand bad experience with the same thing then they should STFU because wah.

Um, no.
Click to expand...

Thank you.

As the saying goes 'options are like arse holes, we all have them and they all stink to someone. '

This is an article written in what the 90s I know I said things then I would never say now. And we have no idea who he is or was for all we know he could have been Fred West or the Pope or he could have spent the past 20 years learning about bdsm and become a great master and teacher who really gets it.

If what he said then helps someone then in some small way it has done some good. Even if for others it makes our flesh crawl, and let's be honest most of us in here have done things that do that to someone.
 
cmslt2326 said:
Actually healthy is not fuzzy it is open to interpretation which is exactly what was intended. Nowhere in any of my posts will you see the words ok or handling my life. I did not use them because I did not mean them. I find it interesting that you disagree with words I have never used and if posing a question and asking for feedback is daring then so be it. Lots of daring souls on this site then.

Thanks
Click to expand...

No, I used the words "ok" and "handling ones life" while answering your question in your OP and said that we (the world at large) are not going to agree about what they mean. The fact that we (you and I) don't seem to agree upon what " fuzzy" and "open to interpretation" mean, doesn't make me think otherwise.

With the author of the text I meant the author of The healthy submissive, because I think you misunderstood SK's post.
And no I didn't think your question was daring nor did I try to attack you.
You're welcome!
 
bdsmshade said:
or he could have spent the past 20 years learning about bdsm and become a great master and teacher who really gets it.
Click to expand...

Thank you, Shade.

In my eyes, this is exactly what he is, which is why I chose his quote for my sig. He is a very smart man who has done extensive research, and if his site were of any interest to you, then upon reading his information, you would probably have given him the same credibility as I have. It doesn't resonate with you, so be it. I don't feel invalidated by that. I believe and support his views immensely. I stand by my feeling of validation from him. I need nothing else in addition to that.

If what he said then helps someone then in some small way it has done some good.
Click to expand...

It did help me. It helped me to recognize myself in someone else's eyes. It also helped me accept and be proud of me. It helped me push toward leaving an unhealthy relationship where I thought what we were living was D/s. It was not.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

S
Are F/m D/s Collabs Possible for sub author? If so, how?
Replies
4
Views
156
HottieOlwen
HottieOlwen
Cardinal
FLR v Femdom
Replies
21
Views
1K
MorlockIam
M
M
Diving into bdsm whithout damaging a relationship
Replies
14
Views
444
Bella857Donna
Bella857Donna
Showmewhatchugot84
Question for women in FLRs
Replies
15
Views
610
Showmewhatchugot84
Showmewhatchugot84
InCNCestBangPie
Sub and Switch Ladies: How Do You Feel About a Dom Who Doesn't Want To Try Submission?
2
Replies
34
Views
1K
cocktaildress21
C
Back
Top