I hate these stories, but not for what seems the usual, obvious reason.

There is no way to fully express how much I hate the works of a certain very popular writer on this site, but I am going to try.

Ashson is a very prolific and seemingly popular writer, and every couple of months I read one of his stories, hoping he doesn't do the exact same thing.

He always does.

I only read the one in the 'nonconsent/reluctance category, and they always do the exact same thing.

No-, I am not one of those people who read nonconsent stories and write harsh criticisms because they contain nonconsent.

I hate Ashson's nonconsent/reluctance for another reason, and in truth it applies to quite a few stories here.

I hate this pattern: Guy forces girl to have sex and she ends up actively participating and cumming like mad because really she loves it.

Most of the time there is this moment when she is saying she isn't in favor of what is happening but starts pushing herself up to meet his cock, fucking away because she just can't help it.

Often he says he will stop if she tells him she wants him to stop and she somehow never does, not really.

Her resistance is always not really resistance.

And she is never really upset, or really angry, and usually clearly knows she really loved it, even if sometimes only in internal monologue and perhaps a comment to herself about making it happen again or something.

Jesus fuck I hate these stories. I mean I fucking HATE them.

I know it is some kind of norm here that people think it is LESS rape-y if she ends up loving it.

Seriously, I think that is what is in people's mind, that a story is less 'offensive' if the woman, though maybe reluctant, really ends up enjoying herself and that sort of thing.

Now, I have nothing against nonconsent stories, truly.

But for fuck's sake, this is reproducing exactly the mythology of a lot of actual real world rapists and what they actually think before they do their actual raping, about how reluctance is for show or will change with persistence and they are really begging for it and will love it and whatever. The self-0serving, ultimately gutless ideas of people who commit sexual violence but tell themselves the other person must really want it, probably because all women are 'sluts' or whatever, but regardless, some version of this ideology is not hard to find in the world of actual sex offenders.

Ashson writes literally hundreds of identical stories, all seemingly exactly like this judging from the maybe ten I've read, and every single time I am both repulsed and the opposite of turned-on when his women go through this exact ritual to end up vindicating the rapist with their active participation and such.

People can like what they like, of course. The fact that I find it revolting is, well, just me, sure.

But people, including seemingly people who run this site, think this is a MORE acceptable form of 'nonconsent/reluctance' story, and people seem to think if you don't want this in your nonconsent/reluctance story that is somehow bad.

In all seriousness, in the world of fantasy and in the world of reality, I think the exact opposite is the truth.

And more to the point, I have, yes, learned to never read Ashson again, because he will always disappoint. Always.

And there it is.

This is largely to meet Web site requirements. The nonconsent pretty much has to end in enjoying it to be accepted for posting at Literotica.

I believe she understands that it is a website requirement. What her argument seems to be - not sure I'm ready to comment on this yet - is that men should be criticized for writing about their own pleasure at imagining rape scenarios.

gunhilltrain said:

I believe she understands that it is a website requirement. What her argument seems to be - not sure I'm ready to comment on this yet - is that men should be criticized for writing about their own pleasure at imagining rape scenarios.

Click to expand...

I haven't read the stories and probably don't want to. And I know that real rape is not so much about the sex but the violence and either the helplessness and/or the struggle of the woman being raped.

I'm not quite even sure how to write this next part so that it complies with the guidelines and I also don't want to offend anyone or have anyone take this the wrong way. But I'll take a stab at it.

As a woman, I do like it when the guy I'm with just sort of takes me when I'm not expecting. Not in a violent way such as hitting me or pulling out a weapon. But in a way that tells me he wants/needs me very much and isn't going to wait. That's a major turn on for me. I have also done this to men I am with. Because I felt like doing it. Went well with some guys. Not so well with others. Some didn't like it at all. And for me, if my partner doesn't like something, I'm not going to do it. Okay, so I will most likely try whatever it is a second time but beyond that, no. Not if they really don't like it because sex should be fun for both of us.

Rape by a stranger? Or strangers? That used to be a fantasy of mine but my real mind as opposed to my subconscious mind kicks in and ruins that fantasy. As in stuff like... Remember that time when... Or... I don't want to get pregnant or a disease. So that's no longer a fantasy of mine. I have been stalked by strangers and I have had people I knew but was not remotely interested in, in a sexual fashion try to force their way on me. And believe, I was not aroused in the least. Actually I was repulsed.

So why then do I have a fantasy of having sex with more than one man all at once? Due to my age, pregnancy is highly unlikely but I could still get a disease. So why does that fantasy get my juices going and the rape thing by a stranger does not? I dunno. Also IRL, I highly doubt that I would actually have sex with more than one guy at the same time. It's a fantasy and nothing but.

I have also found that for me, fantasies are best left not played out. The few times I did try something that was a fantasy it all went hideously wrong or even went into the comedic realm.

So... Given all that, I can see why this sort of thing might turn a man on.

I would also say to the OP, if you don't like these stories, don't read them. There are genres here that I don't read. I don't care how good the author is. If the subject matter doesn't appeal, I don't usually read them.

I think KeithD is right here. The point is not that authors of nonconsent stories add the "she enjoys it" component because they think that's how it really is, or even that they enjoy fantasizing about it being that way. They're just trying to get over the hurdle this site imposes on these stories. Maybe I'm wrong.

But even if I am, so what? This is fantasyland. People have all kinds of fantasies that have nothing to do with what they do in real life. Rape fantasies are very common, though they may repel many people. I don't like them and the OP doesn't like them, but there's no reason people can't have these fantasies and write about them.

I'm not sure why, if one hates an author's particular shtick, one would want to keep reading his stories. Just ignore them.

I don't know which one you hate ?

Ashsons stories or non con stories .

Because ashsons handles it in a very comical manner that it suspended all sense of belief .

But the truth is that many women including me fantasize rape or domination but that doesn't mean I won't report to police if you try that with me . I don't know why it happens but I've met women who share such a fantasy.

Me and my bf once planned a non con roleplay by using old t shirt for tearing apart and safe words . We realised that it's actually very tough when the woman isn't really wiling and men actually get turned off when women do that .

Fantasy is different from reality

why keep going back if you know what the scenes are going to be like?

wouldn't it be less stressful to not read them?

have you sent feedback to the writer?

AngelaSaxon said:

Now, I have nothing against nonconsent stories, truly.

Click to expand...

Angela,

Are there examples of stories in the noncon section that you think are better or have a different formula?

Asking as I'm new and have written a couple noncon/reluctance stories and also feel like the rules of the site really force that formula. With reluctance perhaps there is more room to play with storyline, but for noncon it generally is like you say and I'm curious about other ways to write those stories.

The only other noncon formula I've seen is the "new slave" storyline, usually in an alternate world where slavery is allowed and a woman is broken into her new role, but really knows she has no choice given her fate.

-Davy

davybyrne said:

Angela,

Are there examples of stories in the noncon section that you think are better or have a different formula?

Asking as I'm new and have written a couple noncon/reluctance stories and also feel like the rules of the site really force that formula. With reluctance perhaps there is more room to play with storyline, but for noncon it generally is like you say and I'm curious about other ways to write those stories.

The only other noncon formula I've seen is the "new slave" storyline, usually in an alternate world where slavery is allowed and a woman is broken into her new role, but really knows she has no choice given her fate.

-Davy

Click to expand...

I guess this is different: The non-con story I've published and the one I'm writing now are both role-plays - thus the events are only playacting. In both cases the male finds that the sex act is kind of perfunctory or disappointing because the scenario is distracting. The women do too, which is why they want him again for "regular" sex.

https://www.literotica.com/s/first-day-of-class-2

This may be in parallel: the incest story I'm writing is also a role-play, not sex between actual relatives.

sweetdreamssss said:

Because ashsons handles it in a very comical manner that it suspended all sense of belief .

Click to expand...

That's exactly it. They're tongue-in-cheek kind of humorous.

As a male I have utterly no belief that women behave that way. Anymore than I believe they'll drop to their knees at the sight of a cock like porn portrays.

It's also the #1 sex fantasy of women:

"1. Ooh, my virgin ears
Although saying "rape fantasy" sounds somewhat unthinkable, that's exactly what most women call it. They want to play the innocent, naive, unknowing little girl who gets taken advantage of by the devious, predator-like man."

Stop reading Angela or lighten up.

geronimo_appleby said:

why keep going back if you know what the scenes are going to be like?

wouldn't it be less stressful to not read them?

have you sent feedback to the writer?

Click to expand...

Yeah, pretty much this. I haven't read the stories in question, but I get her point that a lot of non-con stories reinforce the idea that women secretly want to be raped. I object to that, so I don' read them. But they aren't the only kinds of stories I object to, and I'm not the arbiter of what should be allowed.

gunhilltrain said:

What her argument seems to be - not sure I'm ready to comment on this yet - is that men should be criticized for writing about their own pleasure at imagining rape scenarios.

Click to expand...

No. The point is that by only publishing "She said no, but I knew she really wanted it, and by the end of the rape, she was totally into it" stories and refusing to publish "She said no, honestly meant no, and it was an ugly, brutal scene" stories, the site is paradoxically taking a pro-rape position (in that there are rapists who actually think that) when my perception is that they're trying to do the exact opposite.

You might say that a lot of stories on the site use porn logic, which is true, but you can also find many which deconstruct those tropes: Incest stories in which the characters have to deal with the realities of the relationship, or which end with the individuals involved pretty fucked-up emotionally, for example.

To my knowledge, rape is the only subject where the site refuses to publish stories in which porn logic isn't true, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that to the extent that this one-sided view supports a certain type of delusion, that's pretty fucked-up and potentially even dangerous.

AngelaSaxon said:

I hate this pattern: Guy forces girl to have sex and she ends up actively participating and cumming like mad because really she loves it.

I know it is some kind of norm here that people think it is LESS rape-y if she ends up loving it.

Click to expand...

I haven't tried to publish anything till now, but reading stories and the forums it is apparently popular belief that this is actually a requirement by the site for non-consent-ish stories to be published. If that's indeed true, it is fucked up beyond belief, but it is Laurel's site and her rules.

AngelaSaxon said:

But for fuck's sake, this is reproducing exactly the mythology of a lot of actual real world rapists and what they actually think before they do their actual raping, about how reluctance is for show or will change with persistence and they are really begging for it and will love it and whatever. The self-0serving, ultimately gutless ideas of people who commit sexual violence but tell themselves the other person must really want it, probably because all women are 'sluts' or whatever, but regardless, some version of this ideology is not hard to find in the world of actual sex offenders.

Click to expand...

I'm a male who do have certain kind of forceful fantasies (among other kinks), and wholeheartedly agree with you on this.

Valint said:

To my knowledge, rape is the only subject where the site refuses to publish stories in which porn logic isn't true, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that to the extent that this one-sided view supports a certain type of delusion, that's pretty fucked-up and potentially even dangerous.

Click to expand...

Indeed it is.

While it is nothing wrong to enjoy that unrealistic fantasy, I want also read (and potentially write) rape stories that end as bad as they should. For example, about accidental rapists that end in deep remorse and tragedy because that fucks up relationships, and not only with the victim, and even without any involvement of law enforcement.

First time I've looked at the comments since I posted the original message, and: Yes, that is indeed what I meant - that the supposedly enforced non-con 'ends up loving it' logic is problematic as THE universal supposedly ok presentation, for reasons I tried to give, at least in a brief sort of way.

I thought I'd been kind of clear but maybe I was less clear than I thought, or maybe the topic is one in which assumptions and semi-automatic responses tend to come into play very easily. Or both.

I was clearly not saying I am against non-con stories per se. I'm not, and I'm pretty sure I said exactly that in the original message. There are a few types of stories here I am LESS likely to read than those in the non-con section, including very popular ones apparently like incest and such, in which I have literally no interest. Or sub-dom play, in which I equally have no interest at all.

Regardless, I was trying to explain why I don't like the logic of these particular stories, and why I think the assumption that this logic is 'less' rape-y - rather than exactly a functioning rape-y ideology - is at the very least confused.

People say this is a rule here about the victim having to end up enjoying it all - it may be written down, but one doesn't have to go far or look hard to find plenty of stories on this site which do not conform to this 'rule'. So I'm not sure if it IS exactly a rule as such. But it is something, and it does have effects.

At the same time I assume the reason for this 'rule' isn't just because someone or some people think, well, what I've been arguing with, exactly.

I assume the reason for the rule is also just to create something which gives a way to stop a potentially huge, unpleasant flood of awful over-the-top sadistic rape porn turning the site into a haven for, mostly, violently-fantasized repulsive misogyny at a whole massively different level from what the site contains as is.

And in those terms I think the rule probably actually does what it is supposed to.

Which is to say I think I understand the actual reason for the 'rule'.

It just also has other, I think somewhat perverse effects, which rarely get pointed out, and tend to reinforce the idea that this 'ends up liking it' idea is 'better' or something.

As I say, one doesn't have to look far for exceptions in how non-con is presented, including from quite popular authors, but at least most of the ones I've seen tend to be, if one can put it this way, lighter in tone, absurd or not about horribly sadistic people as such doing horribly sadistic things in the way one could easily imagine might be appearing a lot if there was no such 'rule'.

One person here described the tone of Ashson's stories as "tongue-in-cheek kind of humorous", which was a quite accurate description of them, and also applies to some of the non-con stories I've read here which actually don't seem to abide by the 'rule'. Which might be why they stay up even if they seem to unambiguously violate the letter of the rule. Which means people like Ashson actually 'don't' have to do the exact same thing time after time for the sake of a rule.

In answer to one person here: yes, I've given feedback to Ashson. More than once, actually.

And in answer to more than one person here: yes, of course I can stop reading Ashson's stories! Obviously.

He writes hundreds, I've maybe read ten, they aren't long and in part I was perhaps absurdly wondering if my having given feedback in some detail might have led to him write even one story not strictly following the logic in question. I didn't expect it to be the case, but nonetheless I read a few more to try to see. Seemingly I am not persuasive.

So, write what you want and take your chances on getting it through, and stop reading what irritates you. You've been told why there are a lot of stories here with a "OK, now I love it" ending.

And if you've written repeatedly to Ashton what you want Ashton to write and what you don't and Ashton hasn't changed, you should get the message. Ashton has a reader base and it isn't you. Also, if you do that, you are stalking an author here and probably should be kicked off the Web site.

Now you are just being an asshole.

(a) I have stopped reading Ashson, but whether or not I had your 'advice' is a bit of a dick move. Do you find every instance of someone giving negative feedback about something and write "Just don't read it then"? Very worthwhile. But if you don't like my comments, don't read them, right?

(b ) So here I was merely explaining what I think, and why. Apparently you find this in bad taste, or irritating, or something, but seriously, my opinions may be strong but they are still 'feedback', still 'criticism' of stories, with reasons given and everything.

(c) I'm not stalking anyone. You pretending to believe that me giving my opinion here, or commenting on a couple of his hundreds of stories, is "stalking" - and thus that I should "probably" be kicked off the site - is really you deciding it is ok to behave like a prick. And if you keep reading my comments and being silly about them, and me, in this way, does that mean you are 'stalking' me (an 'author') and thus you should 'probably' be kicked off the site?

(d) Give me a break.

This is your rant thread, not mine. You're the one who won't "get it" and won't let loose of it.

What are you talking about? I wrote one message explaining my views a bunch of days ago, didn't even look at it again until today and then wrote one message commenting on some responses and also elaborating on how I think this rule works, my suspicions about why it is there and its actual seeming effects. I didn't even say the effects were all negative, far from it. tried to capture the contradictory effects in question, for what it is worth.

That was literally the end of it to me, until you started talking about me stalking people and how I should be kicked off the site.

You know, until you started behaving like a dick?

sweetdreamssss said:

Me and my bf once planned a non con roleplay by using old t shirt for tearing apart and safe words . We realised that it's actually very tough when the woman isn't really wiling and men actually get turned off when women do that .

Fantasy is different from reality

Click to expand...

That seems like a good idea for a story. Maybe you or someone else should write a fictionalized version of that or some scenario like it.

One point...

Rape, real rape of a woman or a man, is not about sex, as Jada59 has said, but it's also not about violence, it's about control.

It's about taking that control away from the person that is being raped. It's about controlling their response to the rapists actions. The more afraid you act, the feeling of control increase in the rapist. The more you fight the rapist, the less control they feel they have. That's when they get violent or they give up and runaway.

Those types of stories are a plague in the non-con genre. I suspect a big part of it comes from cultural unwillingness to see women as sex-seekers. A woman can’t have an independent, self-centered desire for her own sexual pleasure. That would make her dirty in a way we don’t like. Madonna/whore yadda yards. We want her small and infantilized. But her protests are tiresome too. So sex has to be taken from her and at the end she has to be conformed to his wishes, usually “mewing” by the end of it. Holy hell how I hate the word “mewing” in this context.

So the reader, especially a female reader, is unpacking all these ideas while reading, and it is so divorced from agency, respect and logic on behalf of the character that it is infuriating. It makes you think more about the author than the sex scene. How stupid and trite is this author? Maybe it’s a he... a young he... an inexperienced he. Either way, I don’t care about the scene any more at this point or the story. I don’t care enough to even comment on the story. Flat, limp, next.

Characters (any gender) forced to suck cock don't seem to fall under the they-must-enjoy-it rule. Is anyone clear on Laurel's standards for various types of rapes? Are only penetrating vaginal and anal rapes covered by the rule?

Give an explanation

I had a rape story turned down. I added a couple of sentences to say that in the end the victim had enjoyed it, and it was printed. I’ve wondered since then if I’d given an explanation in the notes as to why I’d written it that way would Laurel have printed the original.

I’ve never been raped but I would imagine that I wouldn’t have enjoyed it. Surely having to write rape stories in which the victim enjoys being raped is glorifying it?

To the OP, you raise all good and valid points, and I even agree with you. Unfortunately, in erotica, it's just a fact, that almost all stories are very easily ruined if you think too much and add "However, in real life, you would" to the story:

"However, in real life, you would...."

• Go to jail and hopefully be raped yourself (rape, many stories)
• Lose all friends and family and be ostracized socially (incest, many stories)
• Lose your job (at-work stories involving under-desk blowjobs, non-consent, reluctance, lots of stories)
• Get pregnant (almost all stories)
• Get Herpes, Gonnorhea, Syphilis, HPV, Non-gonnoconiconnicalololi... (I give up, and I don't feel like looking it up ), AIDS, Crabs, etc. (almost all stories)
• Get divorced (husband/wife catches spouse with someone else an excitedly joins in, lots of stories)
• Get stalked by delusional men (temptresses/exhibitionists in public)
• Get arrested (public sex, peeping tom, exhibitionism, lots of stories)
• Get pink eye (blast of cum directly in the eyeball, quite a few stories)
• Get a horrible UTI (Out of the anus and into the vagina, quite a few stories)
• Get gay bowel syndrome, which isn't just for gay males, it would apply to anyone routinely doing lots of anal (lots of stories)
• Vomit (throat fucking, lots of stories)

We all have to hope the people reading stories can separate fiction from reality. There's no easy answer if you think too hard about things. The answer is: "Hey. Don't think too hard about things!". (I know you'll find that hopelessly unsatisfactory, so it's also followed by, "Don't think too hard about things. It'll only make you crazy."

True story: One college job I had was a supermarket near a big University. One night a bunch of freshmen frat-boy frat-pledge types came through my line. One was giddy with excitement, bragging to me, because they were "on their way to a gang bang". His purchase? A huge plantain. And a zucchini. (I shall explain: Unlike the legendary cucumber, the zucchini and plantain both have porous and rough surfaces, including being most definitely NOT round in the case of the plantain.) Imagine the condition of the drunken passed out girl the next morning (not surburban Maryland, btw...) after that genius got through inserting the plantain in her vagina. That inexperienced 19 year old (yes, idiot, moron, insensitive jerk, fill in the blanks) had no concept of reality, and was basing his upcoming experience on whatever variety of misinformation he had experienced up to that moment in his life. Including perhaps "she's gonna LOVE this plantain in her vagina."

So yes. We're all here because on some level, even knowing it's partly impractical, we like erotica in some way. We just have to remember not to think too much.

AngelaSaxon said:

...
Most of the time there is this moment when she is saying she isn't in favor of what is happening but starts pushing herself up to meet his cock, fucking away because she just can't help it.

...

I know it is some kind of norm here that people think it is LESS rape-y if she ends up loving it.

Seriously, I think that is what is in people's mind, that a story is less 'offensive' if the woman, though maybe reluctant, really ends up enjoying herself and that sort of thing.

Now, I have nothing against nonconsent stories, truly.

But for fuck's sake, this is reproducing exactly the mythology of a lot of actual real world rapists and what they actually think before they do their actual raping, about how reluctance is for show or will change with persistence and they are really begging for it and will love it and whatever. The self-0serving, ultimately gutless ideas of people who commit sexual violence but tell themselves the other person must really want it, probably because all women are 'sluts' or whatever, but regardless, some version of this ideology is not hard to find in the world of actual sex offenders.

Click to expand...

In a few months I'll write one just for you, where it starts off consensual, but then she starts to get sore, and the guy in question has already got her pinned and just keeps plugging away anyways. In fact, he takes his Texas time doing it, because of the really hot facial expressions she's making.

How about that?