Thoughts on NoTalentHack's essay "Loving Loving Wives"

[madelinemasoch]

And yes, some anonymous loser commenting "wow! only 1 star! what a bad writer you are!" after they just 1 bombed it to hell is a troll. It's like slapping somebody in the face really hard and then saying "goddamn! your face is really red! you must be so embarrassed." That motherfucker didn't even read the damn thing.

 

[NoTalentHack]

This part I already agree with and have explained why exactly as you state: by sheer large volume, even with a low percentage of useful feedback you still actually get more than in other categories.

That is part of it, yes. It's not all, however. There's a VERY different feel in there.

No, with such a large portion of feedback being purely political - and far more of it than any other category - no, that's not fair commentary in regards to quality of the work. Sure, places like Fetish can get political, certainly BDSM, heck apparently there's even a 'no-homo' faction in group sex that will frown upon anything that isn't fmf or fmff (or any other combo of fs and ms that has only one m), but none come close to the political factions in LW that give feedback solely on whether they agreed with the outcome of the story and have absolutely no regard for the quality of the story. This political feedback is not even slightly a fair shake assessment of craft and no other category is so tainted.

You say "political," which it sometimes it is. But even those are a different type of what I think of as "chaff" comments: attaboys, "this is shit," "I don't like anal/Daddy/femdom/whatever," and the like. In what way is "I like this" any more or less useful than "you should have burned the bitch?" Simply put, they're not.

Ratings are irrelevant to quality of craft, except maybe a bit in N/N (or non-erotic, how to and essays). I've never mentioned ratings in this discussion.

I don't entirely disagree with this (there's a weak but distinct correlation between writing quality and score), but I can agree with the broad idea. However, I'm going further than that: chaff comments also don't, whether they're positive or negative, political or apolitical, etc.

Outside of LW, I have never gotten the quality of comment I've gotten there at anything like the volume, and it's not just a question of finding needles in haystacks. These are literally all from the first day I posted my first story on the site:

An exercise of telling the same cliché in a different style. But then again, it is still a cliché. Recycling a worn-out stereotype is not exactly a good start for a new writer.

Quite good, but I think you should have chosen to make this a longer story. It's well done but rather bloodless because we just don't know the characters very well.

A 4 for some original presentation. Write again and try to expand the narrative. Try some research and like this story keep staying away from cliché. The somewhat passive style without a CUCK ending is appealing. Next story try and expand it with some red herring scene. I always enjoy reading stories with some misdirection.

It was well written, but I think this would be been better if you'd fleshed out the dialogue rather than just narrate the whole thing.

I like the style used in this story, but don’t try it again. LOL! That said, I always deduct a full point when writers build a plot along a preposterous premise. 4*

Well written for what it is--a straightforward no-nonsense btb without suspense as to the outcome, no delving into the wife's possible psychological/emotional swings while away on her weekend, no consideration of any responsibility on the husband's part for her attitude.
BTB fans will love it. Keep writing.

Another author breaking with legality. As most know this is pure bulshit. Taking all your wife’s things and putting her out. No way possible without a court or agreement between both parties. You have him as a lawyer and yet you post this lie. After all those years of marriage you have to go through the courts and settle or get a judgement. If she call the police he will be the one outside. Facts don’t seem to come to play by so many writers.

His narrative, so we catch a glimpse of him as a character, though still a bit one-dimensional not yo mention typical of most BTB tales. Sadly the wife is a little more than a silly caricature and the storyline superficial. It is a short piece, but more could have been done.

This is an excellent writing style, but may I offer a word of caution? This style will only work where there is little character development and the plot is as crisp as this one. Anything more complicated than this and the style will cramp the substance. This story, however, definitely works on every level - thanks for submitting

You can't write a fictional story without functional dialogue. Fiction's life blood is conflict, and you described the conflict, but we never saw it. You saw it, because you wrote it; I played out perfectly in your mind, but we were left with nothing but a dry, shapeless commentary. It reads more like the idea document for this story. Search the phrase, "Show, don't tell". Then, rewrite your story, but SHOW the reader. 2/5.

Welcome to the fray of Loving Wives.

You set a tone and kept it. I liked the harshness of it.

Now try some dialogue in your next one.

Good first effort , the writing is very well done. The problem with it is this is a very well used trope, the wife wants to go off with some guy, wants a pass,she is spoiled, etc. The problem with well used plots is that it is hard to make them unique. Like why did he create a pre nup in the first place? When they got married he was young, didn't have much,so why would he have a pre nup? It clashes with the facts of the story.

The wife is the typical selfish bitch, who has been given a lot,but what drives her over the edge? What makes mr. Wonderful such a catch she does this? What even put it in her head?

Not saying it is easy, it isn't, and not saying I am one of the great writers on here, I am not, but to me the challenge is how do you take a well worn story and bring something more to it? Among other things in this story the wife is just too one dimensional, it sounds like he put up with a selfish bitch.

Mind you, this is all in the first 150 comments. And there were more! I left those out for various reasons (mostly repetition of other points), but still.

 

[NoTalentHack]

And it's not just first time stories, either. Here's from Kayfabe, my cuckolding story:

I’ve often thought, after reading many of the cuckolding stories here, that the reason many of them don’t work well is that, as Rod stated, unlike BDSM, there is no discussion of boundaries, no safewords, and thus no consequences for behavior which crosses the other person’s lines. That creates a situation where one person can run amok over another, behaving more and more sadistically to someone who may not be much of a masochist, just a man who loves his wife and wants the opportunity to participate in her sex life, even if he’s not the best lover. Like Rod, the author everyonesavoyeur, a bull who has written many wonderful stories here, says that cuckoldry is role-playing and supposed to be fun.

There are many powerful psychological reasons for people to enjoy playing sexually in relationships where there is an exchange of power, as there is in BDSM and cuckoldry. One of them is, as in Martin’s case, a release from stress. But some of them are unhealthy, as occurred with the wife here. Lucky for them, they had an unusual, thinking-man’s bull.

I enjoyed this story very much. The author nailed it, at least for this couple.

Sorry, 1 star. I know what you TRIED to do there, and as usual it was good quality writing, but I'm just going to (mis?)quote one of your own characters. She's a selfish monster. You do NOT do that to someone you claim you love. That's NOT how "love" works. I don't care what psychobabble is used to justify the hurting. The bromance/kayfabe part may have worked, but the raw shittiness of Dee made it not work and not worth it.

@inka2222 love works in wonderful ways and horrific ones too. She loves him so much but feels that she isn't worthy and so tries to force him to leave her for someone better by pushing him away while trying not to hurt him. Broken people make no sense sometimes. Like someone who hates needles but cuts themselves because they hate themselves just as much. Broken is broken but broken is sometimes the more real.

I gave a 4* for originality and writing. But story does not hold together that well. If wife really enjoyed the sex or the husband the humiliation, how did Rod leaving resolve the issues? If wife really loved husband so much that she wanted to push him away, why not just tell him that she did not like him and was leaving?

Yeah, I agree with several others that the wife was a selfish monster, but that's part of what made this story (yup, it's just a story, people) so compelling.

Unique take and very well-written. 5 stars even though I dislike the cuck thing.

Hooked

Well written, as usual. An original take on what is a, at least to me, hard to understand kink. I think it takes real creativity to make the a cuckold/hotwife/bull dynamic at least plausible. Ignore the anonymous haters who can’t appreciate that you’re NOT SUPPOSED to like every character in a story for it to be good. Keep it up.

We all have our prejudices. One of mine is cuck stories--as soon as I get a glimpse of humiliation, voluntary male-male domination, and the like, I drop a story like a bad habit. With NTH, though, I tend to trust that he's going to put something different in--give me a different angle, open a different perspective, etc. Whether or not I LIKE that new angle or perspective, I generally find that the story is very much worth the time I spent reading it.
*
This story is a perfect example. It's not going to change my perspective on hotwife/slutwife/bull/cuckold stories, and I strongly doubt that I'm going to start reading them, but it may change my perspective on that lifestyle. Or, at least, it's going to keep me from reaching for the DSM-5 every time the phrase "voluntary cuckold" enters the conversation.
*
Also, kudos for acknowledging that there are different kinds of strength. I think that's something that's missing from a lot of the stories/comments in Loving Wives. Things like sucking it up for the kids, trying to rebuild a damaged relationship, and trying to push past your own anger are NOT necessarily signs of weakness, and are DEFINITELY not deserving of the lame "Cuck shit 1*" that anonymice so often deposit in the comments section. A lot of writers/commenters are pushing past the idea that strength is solely measured in muscle mass and the potential for mayhem. It's a good and worthwhile trend.

Five stars. Your stories often push boundaries and take us out of our comfort zones. I don't like cuckold or bull stories, but I couldn't stop reading this. Reframing cuck and bull relationships as kayfabe is a brilliant idea. Thanks.

That's all from the first 60 comments. By that time (this was my 20th story), I was getting fewer technical pieces of advice, but I still got people engaging with the story, talking about what it meant, how they felt about it (beyond "That was hot," which is still fine, but, again, chaff comment), what worked or didn't work in motivation and why, etc. Some of those were from some of the biggest cuck haters on the site, too.

I stand by what I said. You will get a fair shake there. You'll get a ton of chaff, too, but you'll also get people engaging with your work in ways that they don't across the vast majority of the site in a volume that you won't see in any other category. It's a great place to learn your craft, if you can take the heat.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

Let's do a thought experiment: imagine that Lit decided to merge NC/R and Romance. What do you think that would look like? Probably a lot like LW: vicious flame wars in the comments and low ratings all around, ESPECIALLY if a bunch of stories were ambiguously advertised. How about First Time and, I dunno, Fetish? Lotsa scat and femdom lovers in First Time? If you slam any two categories together, the ratings would go lower; if you slam two diametrically opposed ones together, they'll go even lower.

↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
Remember the Pineapple on Pizza analogy?

Imagine a place on the internet dedicated to Pineapple on Pizza.

Not for it. Not against it. Then imagine the ensuing rage. Lmao

 

[madelinemasoch]

I stand by what I said. You will get a fair shake there. You'll get a ton of chaff, too, but you'll also get people engaging with your work in ways that they don't across the vast majority of the site in a volume that you won't see in any other category. It's a great place to learn your craft, if you can take the heat.

This is true for you, and I think you're an outlier in the opposite sense that I am one.

 

[NoTalentHack]

This is true for you, and I think you're an outlier in the opposite sense that I am one.

I don't think I'm an outlier, but I do think you are. I've talked with a number of folks about publishing in LW, going through the whole process with them all the way through beta reading for some of them. As a general rule, the experience has been relatively positive for most of the folks I've talked with, even if they didn't repeat it because they just wanted to see how it would go. We've talked before about why I think yours went so badly, though, so no need to rehash that.

 

[Gamblnluck]

Mind you, this is all in the first 150 comments. And there were more! I left those out for various reasons (mostly repetition of other points), but still.

LOL, Ive seen virtually those same comments in slightly different words behind my own stories. i many cases, the reader is right to some degree.

My own stories fail in the 'quality' category some authors here seem so important. My grammar or my expression might not be on top.. My descriptions are not overly verbose, nor are they works of art. My intention is to tell a story, while making it as interesting as possible. I tend to use dialog to cover my inadequacies as an author.
Guess what? I generally get good feedback for my efforts. Even in LW.

 

[NoTalentHack]

LOL, Ive seen virtually those same comments in slightly different words behind my own stories. i many cases, the reader is right to some degree.

My own stories fail in the 'quality' category some authors here seem so important. My grammar or my expression might not be on top.. My descriptions are not overly verbose, nor are they works of art. My intention is to tell a story, while making it as interesting as possible. I tend to use dialog to cover my inadequacies as an author.
Guess what? I generally get good feedback for my efforts. Even in LW.

They were more fair on mine. There was literally one line of dialogue because I was doing a thing.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Man, a lot of the things you guys say about LW just doesn't bear out in my own writer's stats.

.... "LW is the only place trolls hate on cuckold stories" or statements of the like when those very same trolls searched me out in the BDSM category long before my only LW story dropped. I really should've mentioned that part in forum discussions before, but it took me a long time to realize that all of my original hate was in BDSM and not LW. ....

This suggests there's something in your writing that's catching their attention. And how is it you're linking LW trolls to the BDSM trolls you think hated your stories first?

I get the "cuck shit" comments and 1-bombs on my stories. But my stories tend to get above 3.1. As for views, I've found it depends on the title and description, and possibly the day of week it posts. In my opinion, tags don't mean as much, because you're only getting those who search for those tags. I think the majority of the views you get within the first two weeks are those reading title and descriptions from the New and category lists.

If you think the "cuck" tag is destroying your story, then don't add that tag! But what are the other themes making your stories stand out?

 

[madelinemasoch]

If you think the "cuck" tag is destroying your story, then don't add that tag!

That would add its own problems, as it's conventional wisdom here to tag stories with the actual content that's in them so that readers can check them and click off if they already know they won't be interested. Also, it's not destroying my stories. I was just speculating about where this particular vocal minority of the readership found the stories from.

But my stories tend to get above 3.1.

My stories average above 3.1 as well. Only 4 of the total 29 I've published have less than that.

And how is it you're linking LW trolls to the BDSM trolls you think hated your stories first?

For all we know, it could be the same people, because the majority of them are anonymous in both categories and Whackdoodle, for example, one of my most vociferous haters, reads everything. My point is, I don't think most readers on the site stay in one category for very long, in general, partially because while everyone always says "LW is full of haters", the same exact type of hatred gets spewed in BDSM comments as well, before the same author has even published in LW.

I think the majority of the views you get within the first two weeks are those reading title and descriptions from the New and category lists.

This is only conceivable to me if most people read everything, or at least a few different categories at a time. I think tags are probably actually more important.

But what are the other themes making your stories stand out?

This could be a long list.

1. The haters really don't like the interracial aspect, most of the time, even though in my first story this wasn't an issue for anyone. It could be that they themselves are racially prejudiced. Part of this is character-author confusion, part of it is just general annoying bad reading lumped in with a turbulent society outside. Basically I write "whiteboys aren't men" (because they're women/feminized now/not masculine enough) and these few hating readers go "see? the author is racist," as if I'm saying they're subhuman. It's... really fucking weird.
2. There is an absolute absence of certain things in my stories that I've currently published: (#1) white men having penetrative sexual intercourse in which they are the penetrator, (#2) cis women being submissive to anyone other than a black bull, and (#3) an utterly heartless monster of a woman who just up and leaves the cuck she's cheating on. I think the complete absence of these things make my stories "difficult to relate to" (slim and shy way of putting it, but let's go with that phrasing) for certain readers. If you know what I'm saying.
3. I think some of them are uncomfortable with female sexual dominance and/or cuckoldry in general(?) But I don't really know how far this goes. How long can one hate-read another that intensely? Most people who don't like that stuff simply wouldn't read me at all, I would assume...
4. One very common reproach I have received is that my femdom quote-unquote "reads as abuse." These readers sometimes add that they don't understand what's keeping the given relationship in question together, which is a weird one, because it implies that there's some secret plot point they don't know about yet, a McGuffin of femdom if you will which would explain everything if revealed and make it all make sense (to them). From my own point of view as the author, I just don't see why one of those would be at all necessary. It's self explanatory to me, like, wouldn't you do the same thing and get on your knees for a woman who looked like that? So, I don't include anything like that. Why do they need some tertiary reason to stay together when this is how they like to be together in the first place? This is especially true of Matty and Eleanor; it really works for them, and I've "explained" why in the text (through showing, not really telling) but those very same ignorant comments keep coming in. I complain on the forums about them, other writers (and some non-writers who just use the forums for god-knows-what) but even though it's super obvious why the commenters are being dumb, they take one look at the story and go "too brutal!" and leave without ever seeing that obvious why.
5. So, yeah, my writing is very unique (as far as I've actually read on here, could be wrong) especially in that I think people can go a longer way into "sexualized violence" than other writers (especially on here, it seems) generally agree with–of course I mean, enjoying the sexualized violence, taking pleasure not in spite of but because of pain. If you're ever reading me (not sure why one would at this point) and you find yourself wondering "why is this character putting up with this treatment?" just insert into your head that it's because they like it. You're probably not that far off from the actual answer. The other thing that makes me unique isn't content, just style. I noticed I write in paragraphs and even sentences that are a lot longer than most other stories on this site have on offer. I think this is because of my background in philosophy, where a paragraph could be a whole page or more of digging into some particular nuance. The problem is the other side of my style is a certain elusiveness. I sometimes go in and describe the visual of a scene before ever saying how anyone feels about what's happening in it. I sometimes describe very complicated actions from certain points of view which lock the reader in so that they can't see the way certain other characters feel about what's happening to them. I think of it as a clean way of writing, but some readers (clearly) just get confused by it.

 

[intim8]

OK, I have a hypothesis...

I've now gotten a lot more comments, a large number of them very harshly negative. But, after having read a few stories there over the past couple of weeks, and seeing the specifics of the comments I've gotten, I think the LW readers, at least the most vocal of them, are the politically conservative smut readers.

I'm pretty plugged into conservative politics (don't draw any conclusions about mine from that), and I'm starting to recognize the tone. Many stories have military MCs, many are about unfaithful wives getting their comeuppance, they mostly hate cucking. Etc.

My story involves an older man with a nineteen year old girl who is with him to help him get over losing his wife two years ago to a drunk driver. He's still "faithful" to her, he can't let her go, despite her explicit dying wish that he be happy and find someone eventually. This arrangement was set up by the girl's aunt, who is the (loving) wife of the MC's best friend. The girl is doing it for her own reasons - she's very intelligent and an independent thinker - but she's also getting paid for it by her aunt and uncle, so technically, she's a prostitute. It has a little bit of, not group sex, but two couples having sex in the same room - MC and the girl plus the aunt and uncle. The aunt is a doctor, and gives him a sexual health workup, including taking a sample.

You can probably guess which parts of that are getting reamed in the comments.

So my hypothesis is that a big part of the LW readers are right-wing, Bible Belt readers who can't quite bring themselves to read smut, but still want to. They can justify it to themselves if it is "smut" that supports "family values". They don't want any "deviance". They don't want adventurousness or unorthodox couplings. They want justice for infidelity. They want wholesome porn.

Good news is, the average rating has been ratcheting up all day, and several positive comments are still coming in. Enough that the fantasy of it crossing the magic "hot" threshold popped into my head. Very unlikely, but it could flirt with it if this keeps up.

The other good news is that even the neg comments have some constructive criticism in them.

And, I'm not criticizing conservatives that want wholesome porn. To each his own. But if I'm right, or at least close, it might be a model that authors can use to gauge their own involvement there.

 

[Gamblnluck]

For all we know, it could be the same people, because the majority of them are anonymous in both categories and Whackdoodle, for example, one of my most vociferous haters, reads everything. My point is, I don't think most readers on the site stay in one category for very long, in general, partially because while everyone always says "LW is full of haters", the same exact type of hatred gets spewed in BDSM comments as well, before the same author has even published in LW.

Whack gets around. He is one of those ever-present readers who says his peace. Most often against your story but occasionally he takes the other side. The point here is why do you get those hateful comments about your stories? Do you seek them?
If not,try to understand what your readership might want. Or maybe you "Do not care, you will write for yourself'. If that were the case why complain?

Of course you care. ALL us authors care and want our efforts to be appreciated.

 

[Lifestyle66]

... just insert into your head that it's because they like it. You're probably not that far off from the actual answer. ....

And THAT explains the reason for so many 1-bombing trolls and other haters, clicking on stories they know they'll hate.

You have an audience, who loves to hate! But you GOT THEM!

 

[EmilyMiller]

Hey @NoTalentHack

Anyone can write a Loving Wives essay, but to write a Loving Wives parody song takes real talent .

Em

 

[NoTalentHack]

OK, I have a hypothesis...

I've now gotten a lot more comments, a large number of them very harshly negative. But, after having read a few stories there over the past couple of weeks, and seeing the specifics of the comments I've gotten, I think the LW readers, at least the most vocal of them, are the politically conservative smut readers.

I'm pretty plugged into conservative politics (don't draw any conclusions about mine from that), and I'm starting to recognize the tone. Many stories have military MCs, many are about unfaithful wives getting their comeuppance, they mostly hate cucking. Etc.

My story involves an older man with a nineteen year old girl who is with him to help him get over losing his wife two years ago to a drunk driver. He's still "faithful" to her, he can't let her go, despite her explicit dying wish that he be happy and find someone eventually. This arrangement was set up by the girl's aunt, who is the (loving) wife of the MC's best friend. The girl is doing it for her own reasons - she's very intelligent and an independent thinker - but she's also getting paid for it by her aunt and uncle, so technically, she's a prostitute. It has a little bit of, not group sex, but two couples having sex in the same room - MC and the girl plus the aunt and uncle. The aunt is a doctor, and gives him a sexual health workup, including taking a sample.

You can probably guess which parts of that are getting reamed in the comments.

So my hypothesis is that a big part of the LW readers are right-wing, Bible Belt readers who can't quite bring themselves to read smut, but still want to. They can justify it to themselves if it is "smut" that supports "family values". They don't want any "deviance". They don't want adventurousness or unorthodox couplings. They want justice for infidelity. They want wholesome porn.

Good news is, the average rating has been ratcheting up all day, and several positive comments are still coming in. Enough that the fantasy of it crossing the magic "hot" threshold popped into my head. Very unlikely, but it could flirt with it if this keeps up.

The other good news is that even the neg comments have some constructive criticism in them.

And, I'm not criticizing conservatives that want wholesome porn. To each his own. But if I'm right, or at least close, it might be a model that authors can use to gauge their own involvement there.

You're close on this, but not quite right, I don't think. They are both sexually and politically conservative; the most pro-monogamy commenters, that is, but not necessarily the category as a whole. However, it's less that they're Bible belters (although some of them are), but that they're old. If I had to make a guess, the category as a whole skews at least 10 and probably closer to 20 years older than the average reader age on Lit.

Beyond that, a lot of them have a lot of baggage surrounding infidelity, and I know for a fact that it's because (in some cases) due to their experience with divorce. This is, again, a sweeping generalization, but it's been borne out by a lot of anecdotal evidence. There's a suspicion of therapists as well. Politicians, too, of course, and judges. As I've said before, a lot of the guys in there are coming to it from a place where their path to Lit was "got divorced > got screwed (in their opinion) in the divorce > look for fap material > find LW stories where things turn out okay for MMC > settle in even after they stop wanting to read fap material." Some of them mellow and read a bunch of stuff in Romance or their particular fetish category, too, but some just stay in LW.

There is, however, probably an overlap with Bible belters. Some of the worst divorce outcomes from men come in the South, and Texas is both the second most populous state in the union and, until about 10 years ago, had some of the most screwed up divorce laws. But I know one of the BTB guys writes stories set in Philadelphia, another in the Pacific Northwest, several around the Northeast, the UK, Australia, etc.

I've gotten the "I don't like anal/group/daddy/rough sex" stuff in other categories from non-LW commenters, too. And in LW, the kinkiest story I have there is also the second highest scoring. Now, it is in the context of a traditional male/female relationship, but I also have a decently scoring one (4.44 on the first half) of a polyamorous throuple navigating their relationship badly.

Commenters comment when they particularly like what you are or aren't doing. After the Future is Gone Pt. 1 has a 4.76 rating, 4300 votes, and 216 comments. Incomaptible Needs Pt. 1 (the throuple story) is at 4.44, 700 votes, and 37 comments.

ETA: I'm working on another one with similar kinks right now, in this case a story where wife had a one-off liaison that she's tried to hide from her husband. She deeply regrets and feels horribly guilty about it, and to make it up to him, she's been trying to be "the best wife she can be, nothing is off the table, etc." as is mentioned in a lot of the relationship drama stories as something offered by the errant spouse in an attempt to stay together. This involves a lot of stuff, but, because Literotica, it includes indulging in any kind of kink that he's ever even mentioned in passing.

However, while she thinks she's kept the indiscretion a secret, she hasn't; he knows, and he's milking it for what it's worth, at least until he gets guilty about taking advantage of someone who clearly loves him and is remorseful. Then it's about how he can maneuver things around so that he can tell her without her getting mad.

They don't have a particularly healthy communication dynamic is what I'm saying. Anyways, lots of kink, and we'll see how that goes in a reconciliation story as opposed to a moving on or a polyamorous one.

 

[EmilyMiller]

You're close on this, but not quite right, I don't think. They are both sexually and politically conservative; the most pro-monogamy commenters, that is, but not necessarily the category as a whole. However, it's less that they're Bible belters (although some of them are), but that they're old. If I had to make a guess, the category as a whole skews at least 10 and probably closer to 20 years older than the average reader age on Lit.

Beyond that, a lot of them have a lot of baggage surrounding infidelity, and I know for a fact that it's because (in some cases) due to their experience with divorce. This is, again, a sweeping generalization, but it's been borne out by a lot of anecdotal evidence. There's a suspicion of therapists as well. Politicians, too, of course, and judges. As I've said before, a lot of the guys in there are coming to it from a place where their path to Lit was "got divorced > got screwed (in their opinion) in the divorce > look for fap material > find LW stories where things turn out okay for MMC > settle in even after they stop wanting to read fap material." Some of them mellow and read a bunch of stuff in Romance or their particular fetish category, too, but some just stay in LW.

There is, however, probably an overlap with Bible belters. Some of the worst divorce outcomes from men come in the South, and Texas is both the second most populous state in the union and, until about 10 years ago, had some of the most screwed up divorce laws. But I know one of the BTB guys writes stories set in Philadelphia, another in the Pacific Northwest, several around the Northeast, the UK, Australia, etc.

I've gotten the "I don't like anal/group/daddy/rough sex" stuff in other categories from non-LW commenters, too. And in LW, the kinkiest story I have there is also the second highest scoring. Now, it is in the context of a traditional male/female relationship, but I also have a decently scoring one (4.44 on the first half) of a polyamorous throuple navigating their relationship badly.

Commenters comment when they particularly like what you are or aren't doing. After the Future is Gone Pt. 1 has a 4.76 rating, 4300 votes, and 216 comments. Incomaptible Needs Pt. 1 (the throuple story) is at 4.44, 700 votes, and 37 comments.

I think you are right about the age. I can’t see anyone under - say - 50 stating that lesbianism is “deviancy” and that we want to “convert” their women and “normalize [our] sick lifestyle.”

Em

EDIT: by “anyone” I mean “anyone on a sex site”

 

[intim8]

but not necessarily the category as a whole. However, it's less that they're Bible belters (although some of them are), but that they're old.

Yeah, there's no way the whole category is one type of reader. As the harsh comments started flooding in, the avg rating started shooting up fast at the same time, so obviously there were at least two kinds of readers involved just then. And the haters were in the minority, because I could see the 1-bombs happening in almost real time. Seems to be about 1 in 5 or 10 ratings.

BTW, it was amazing how fast this came in. Right on the dot, 5:00 eastern time, it seemed like every minute the view count went up, there were new comments, and more ratings.

I've gotten 13 more followers so far.

Beyond that, a lot of them have a lot of baggage surrounding infidelity, and I know for a fact that it's because (in some cases) due to their experience with divorce.

I'm sure that's the case. And people who are working through, or around that baggage, don't want to be distracted with side issues.

There is, however, probably an overlap with Bible belters. Some of the worst divorce outcomes from men come in the South, and Texas is both the second most populous state in the union and, until about 10 years ago, had some of the most screwed up divorce laws. But I know one of the BTB guys writes stories set in Philadelphia, another in the Pacific Northwest, several around the Northeast, the UK, Australia, etc.

I meant "Bible Belters" more metaphorically, those who are there in spirit if not geographically.

Stats show that the most conservative US states have higher porn viewership in general. I won't say a lot of hypocrites, but a lot of people with internal struggles between their expressed morality and their drives. That might explain some of the level of vitriol.

Commenters comment when they particularly like what you are or aren't doing.

Or when they really, really don't like it. Or when it touches a nerve.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Or when they really, really don't like it. Or when it touches a nerve.

Yeah, I miswrote that. That is what I meant, that they particularly like or don't like what you're doing. Thinking faster than typing.

 

[intim8]

I think you are right about the age.

Oh, yeah, forgot to mention that. I think the male readership here skews older generally, not just in LW, and probably not just on Literotica. I get a lot of comments from older guys saying they can relate, especially on my First Time story. And on this story, one commenter said he was a widower, and what the MC was going through pretty much nailed what he did.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Oh, yeah, forgot to mention that. I think the male readership here skews older generally, not just in LW, and probably not just on Literotica. I get a lot of comments from older guys saying they can relate, especially on my First Time story. And on this story, one commenter said he was a widower, and what the MC was going through pretty much nailed what he did.

I have lovely comments from widowers who have connected with MCs suffering loss in my stories.

Em

 

[Gamblnluck]

So my hypothesis is that a big part of the LW readers are right-wing, Bible Belt readers who can't quite bring themselves to read smut, but still want to. They can justify it to themselves if it is "smut" that supports "family values". They don't want any "deviance". They don't want adventurousness or unorthodox couplings. They want justice for infidelity. They want wholesome porn.

Bullshit about the the wholesome porn and cant quite read porn thing.
Yes there is a definite conservative vibe from readers of LW. But NOT the porn thing. They are not that conservative or stuck up on 'alternate lifestyles and activities".
I think many see the world like this: "Fucking is fun, so is whatever else people might do." They are liberal in all that. What they hate and despise is cheating. Breaking trust.
I've had people ask about 'aftercare' in a bdsm story. Why I did not include it or make the semi-forced play completely fun for all.

Or call certain things/families I wrote about dysfunctional. That was the intention.

I wanted to make my stories edgy. I do not care to see the 'victim' of a bdsm story just go along and love everything done to them. My own kink is that I enjoy the victim to be taken to unintended places.
But at the same time I hate to see a character destroyed. (Well,

 

[intim8]

Yes there is a definite conservative vibe from readers of LW. But NOT the porn thing. They are not that conservative or stuck up on 'alternate lifestyles and activities".

I was not referring to LW readers generally, but to the subset that are the most vocal haters.

As I said there, or in a response, there's no way to put all LW readers into one category. While I was getting hate mail in the comments, the ratings were going up, from the other kinds of readers.

 

[madelinemasoch]

And THAT explains the reason for so many 1-bombing trolls and other haters, clicking on stories they know they'll hate.

You have an audience, who loves to hate! But you GOT THEM!

They read it because they like hating on it? I could've told you that already...

 

[Lifestyle66]

They read it because they like hating on it? I could've told you that already...

So, what's your issue?

I've written stories expecting 1-bombs. When I get them, it's like: SCORE!

 

[madelinemasoch]

The point here is why do you get those hateful comments about your stories? Do you seek them?

No I don't seek them. I've made this very clear throughout my forum presence. The closest I ever got to "seeking them" was in the intro of Dark Love where I essentially positioned myself as the femdom character and the audience as the bondage slave, basically just to say, "I'm not stopping, regardless of how much you hate me." But no, I don't seek hatred.

If not,try to understand what your readership might want. Or maybe you "Do not care, you will write for yourself'. If that were the case why complain?

Of course you care. ALL us authors care and want our efforts to be appreciated.

It's hard to say when one group of very few comparative to the entire audience says "go to therapy and keep us out of your torture porn" (implying they don't want to read me at all) and the other group of very few comparative to the entire audience says "so hot! so eloquent! when's the next chapter coming?" (implying I'm already giving them exactly what they wanted, and they just want more...)

I will say my writing choices (all of them: content, style, etc.) are rarely if ever made by the factor of audience perception. If you liked it, it was an accident on my part. If you hated it, it was an accident on my part as well. It just doesn't factor into the creative process, like, at all. I think that's part of why it's so frustrating when people misread my work; it was an accident, I didn't mean to be obscure in what I put down, I just did it and they read it and their reading of it was wrong. It's not that I want x reader who hates me to be happy with me instead. It's that I poured all this effort into something that was trashed by another person's eyeballs, and there's no one on the other hand who has a really deep insightful thing to say about it that conveys to me that it's not a lost cause to be understood and that actually, some people out there do get it.